Lionel Messi | PSG Watch

[Gehrman]

Messi last season
Most goals in La Liga
Most Assists in La liga
Most MOTM in all top leagues.
Doing all this playing for a terrible Barca side while past his peak.
This season has been poor but people saying he’s been not at top level in a few years are hilarious

He didn't have most assists. He had most big chances created though and I think had the most completed dribbles.

 

[Gehrman]

Ronaldo starts every game for us based on his name alone.

Him and Cavani are our only strikers atm.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

All this talk about how Barcelona were total shit and only Messi was holding them up was going to be put to the test this season when they didn't have him. They look on track to get 66-72 points, with a squad of nobodies and has-beens. The higher end of that is just 6 points below last season.

 

[genardk]

There are various top leagues in Europe, and various players show up in their goalscoring charts. But we don't really make that big a deal about it. Suarez scored 21 goals for an incredible defensive Atletico Madrid and won them the league, but no one had any illusions about him still being at top level. Cristiano Ronaldo was the Serie A top goalscorer with 29 goals (1 goal less than Messi), also playing for a "terrible" Juventus side, and most people know he's not really at top level. Lukaku was the 2nd highest goalscorer in Serie A and people here correctly assessed that he'd flop in the PL.

Messi did not have the most assists in La Liga. I'm not sure where you're getting that from, it appears to be completely made up. He's at 11 on transfermarkt and 9 on FBREF and La Liga official stats. The player with most assists was Iago Aspas, who I doubt anyone here thinks is worthy of lacing Messi's boots, and who was playing in a much more terrible club than Barcelona. If we look at Serie A, Redcafe favorite Romero Lukaku had 11 assists and Henrikh Mkhitaryan had 10 assists.

If you are not happy with the assist stats, you can always go and check the other stats that you guys for obvious reasons tend to ignore like dribbling, chances created, key pass, free-kick stats. Nobody comes close to Messi in those areas and shows his completeness as he is not just a goal scorer but also a GOAT level playmaker & dribbler. Lukaku, Ronaldo, Suarez are not playmakers or elite dribblers/passers and can only compete with Messi on goals. That's why people make a big deal about Messi's domination of La Liga.

That Messi was the top candidate for most for Ballon D'or on Redcafe in May-June for many before Copa and EC says it all really. Also, I do not remember anyone considering Ronaldo as a top Ballon D'or candidate neither here (bar a few posters) or in media. It has always been between Messi and Lewa from the start.

 

[genardk]

All this talk about how Barcelona were total shit and only Messi was holding them up was going to be put to the test this season when they didn't have him. They look on track to get 66-72 points, with a squad of nobodies and has-beens. The higher end of that is just 6 points below last season.

Yeah, that's why Barca is 15 points behind Real and got eliminated in CL in the group stage. Have such things happened at Barca with Messi?
Not to mention Xavi's arrival and positive impact on Barca.

 

[Gehrman]

All this talk about how Barcelona were total shit and only Messi was holding them up was going to be put to the test this season when they didn't have him. They look on track to get 66-72 points, with a squad of nobodies and has-beens. The higher end of that is just 6 points below last season.

And athletico are wank with the same squad. Maybe Xavi is doing a good job. But yeah last season Barcelona weren't going anywhere untill Messi picked up his form. Perhaps they were too dependent on 1 player. Also Barcelona are in the EL. We added Ronaldo, Varane and Sancho this summer and we are doing worse than last season, being behind West Ham of all clubs. We made to through the group stages though. I just don't think football is always that simple.

 

[Sarni]

Which 19 players have had a better season than Messi so far? Is this a pisstake?

There’s about 10 players from City and Liverpool alone, and at least 3 just from his own team.

Yeah there is about 50 players having a better season than him this year to be honest. Like you pointed, pretty much half the teams towards the top of top leagues are up there. There is absolutely no way in hell he’s been a top 20 player this season.

When I said he may win Ballon d’Or I didn’t really mean he’d do that on merit but rather on trophies and reputation, of course. He’s been very ordinary this season.

 

[Zehner]

Which 19 players have had a better season than Messi so far? Is this a pisstake?

There’s about 10 players from City and Liverpool alone, and at least 3 just from his own team.

Nah, definitely not. The only player out of the City and Liverpool squad who can live up to the standards you expect from Messi is Salah. No other EPL player has been clearly better across all competitions. If you disagree, please give me a list of names and I'll apply the same criteria you apply to Messi.

 

[TenonTen]

Messi not even top 20? Which 19 players are supposed to be better than him, let alone clearly? He's still at 15 scorers in 1700 minutes across all competitions despite being a playmaker.

You guys are really getting carried away.

You are delusional if you think he has been a top 20 player in the world this season so far. Not even close.

Actually not even sure if he's even top 50 this season if we consider all positions without bias.

Yeah officially this will be the first WC that will have no affect on Ballon D’or due to it being in winter

Pretty sure they'll extend the deadline.....

Until I saw Real against PSG, I was thinking it would be between Benzema, Salah and Mbappe. Now, I also think it would be between Mbappe and Salah. Whoever goes further in the CL will probably win it assuming they maintain their form this season.

Eh? Benzema??? Based on what exactly??

Yet I still think Mbappe hasn't reached the level Messi displayed last season.

Last club season, Messi didn't really made the difference in the big stages. Scored one goal against PSG when the tie was over.

Mbappe seems like he'll come really clutch this season. Also has plenty of assists. Let's see if he can play well in the next stages of the CL.

 

[TenonTen]

Nah, definitely not. The only player out of the City and Liverpool squad who can live up to the standards you expect from Messi is Salah. No other EPL player has been clearly better across all competitions. If you disagree, please give me a list of names and I'll apply the same criteria you apply to Messi.

"...Who can live up to the standards you expect from Messi...."

Umm, people expect the world from Messi because he has been one of the greatest players ever. But how does his glorious past alter and cover up his lackluster performances for this season?

If we judge based on this season alone, there are about 50 players better than Messi.

Going by your logic, Messi can just sit at home and be the best player in the world since we all aren't seeing other players do things which we "expect from Messi" normally.

 

[Pretzels81]

He looks miserable and apathetic.

If he was smart, he would move to Miami for a couple of seasons, 2023-25; then retirement.

If.

 

[Zehner]

If we judge based on this season alone, there are about 50 players better than Messi.

Alright, who?

"...Who can live up to the standards you expect from Messi...."

Umm, people expect the world from Messi because he has been one of the greatest players ever. But how does his glorious past alter and cover up his lackluster performances for this season?

You contradict yourself in a single post:

If we judge based on this season alone, there are about 50 players better than Messi.

Going by your logic, Messi can just sit at home and be the best player in the world since we all aren't seeing other players do things which we "expect from Messi" normally.

No.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

I just don't think football is always that simple.

Football is, indeed, not as simple. It was never as simple as "Messi is carrying a bunch of imbeciles who can't tie their shoelaces."

 

[Hansi Fick]

Based on what he currently is able to deliver on the pitch, there's about 500 players better than Messi. The little guy is finished, and who can blame him. The time comes for everyone. He played every game 90 minutes for 15 years.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

Based on what he currently is able to deliver on the pitch, there's about 500 players better than Messi. The little guy is finished, and who can blame him. The time comes for everyone. He played every game 90 minutes for 15 years.

Declined? Yes. But people saying his finished have probably not seen much of him this season. Id give it minimum of 2 seasons of poor performances before calling Ronaldo or Messi finished despite their age

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

That's why people make a big deal about Messi's domination of La Liga.

The two teams that actually came close to winning La Liga, Real Madrid and Atletico, were not dominated by Messi in any way, shape, or form. He was basically a flat track bully last season.

It's very nice that Messi ranked highest in "post-shot chances taken with a left foot on a Tuesday" or whatever but if you looked at what was happening in context instead of just counting numbers arbitrarily, you would have seen that he was quickly losing "it," and would not be as surprised with the season he's now having.

 

[Gehrman]

Football is, indeed, not as simple. It was never as simple as "Messi is carrying a bunch of imbeciles who can't tie their shoelaces."

It was still his uptick in form that brought them even close to a title challenge. Personally never said his team mates were imbeciles someone else might.

 

[Gehrman]

The two teams that actually came close to winning La Liga, Real Madrid and Atletico, were not dominated by Messi in any way, shape, or form. He was basically a flat track bully last season.

It's very nice that Messi ranked highest in "post-shot chances taken with a left foot on a Tuesday" or whatever but if you looked at what was happening in context instead of just counting numbers arbitrarily, you would have seen that he was quickly losing "it," and would not be as surprised with the season he's now having.

I guess if only Real Madrid and Athletico count, you're right about him being a flat track bully last season. Still quite good despite not even being a out and out striker.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

I should clarify that I don't think Messi had a bad 2020-2021 season. He had a good season.

I think this good season has been overrated to a 'great' season. And because of that people have been more surprised that he's having a more obviously 'not so good' season.

 

[Gehrman]

I should clarify that I don't think Messi had a bad 2020-2021 season. He had a good season.

I think this good season has been overrated to a 'great' season. And because of that people have been more surprised that he's having a more obviously 'not so good' season.

For Messi standards his last great individual season was 2018-2019.

 

[ericPSG]

Which 19 players have had a better season than Messi so far? Is this a pisstake?

There’s about 10 players from City and Liverpool alone, and at least 3 just from his own team.

I've watched every PSG game this season so far. Mbappe, Verratti, Marquinhos have clearly been better than him and you could argue for a few others from PSG alone
Messi has been really poor in most of the games. We already knew he didn't defend or press. But he is not finishing well, has no pace on the counter, tack all the free kicks and transform none...

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

If you are not happy with the assist stats, you can always go and check the other stats that you guys for obvious reasons tend to ignore like dribbling, chances created, key pass, free-kick stats.

I'll give a less dismissive answer to this.

I don't think it's a very good idea to use individual player statistics for a team game, ranked by quantity, as evidence of their level of performance, because these numbers are not a one-way relationship. The team conditions the player's numbers.

Last season Barcelona played the most attacking football of any team in La Liga. They scored almost 20 more goals than RM and Atletico, but conceded 10 and 13 goals more than either of them. To a certain extent, Messi is responsible for the numbers being so high. But in another sense, Messi's numbers benefit from being in the most attacking team and having all play go through him. It makes him very likely to post very high numbers.

You mention key passes. Messi had 77 last season. But the 2nd most key passes were by a guy called David Ferreiro, who plays in Huesca. Other players on that top 10 are Kroos, Aspas, Canales, and Jesus Navas. This is, to a large extent, telling you people's roles in a team, not their ability.

A simple example is Benzema. Last season he was playing for a defensive and frankly boring RM team. He was not in the top 10 for key passes, had considerably less shots on target than Messi (and a similar number to Rafa Mir from, again, Huesca), was 5th in assists (and not in the top ten for assists/90), was not in the top 10 for passes into the penalty area, was 10th for shot creating actions.

This season RM are playing more attacking football. And now Benzema is 6th on key passes, averaging more shots on target per game than last season, 2nd on assists, 1st for passes into penalty area, 4th on shot creating actions... He's averaging more goals+assists/90 than Messi last season.

While I think he's having a good season, this increase in the numbers is mostly because we're playing different football.

 

[Pintu]

There are various top leagues in Europe, and various players show up in their goalscoring charts. But we don't really make that big a deal about it. Suarez scored 21 goals for an incredible defensive Atletico Madrid and won them the league, but no one had any illusions about him still being at top level. Cristiano Ronaldo was the Serie A top goalscorer with 29 goals (1 goal less than Messi), also playing for a "terrible" Juventus side, and most people know he's not really at top level. Lukaku was the 2nd highest goalscorer in Serie A and people here correctly assessed that he'd flop in the PL.

If we look at Serie A, Redcafe favorite Romero Lukaku had 11 assists and Henrikh Mkhitaryan had 10 assists.

Juventus were counting on Ronaldo as the main goalscorer. Everyone's job was to put it for Ronaldo. But when it mattered most, he was not that good. Against Porto Chiesa scored 3 of the 4 goals. Ronaldo scored none.

You also got your numbers wrong concerning assists. Malinovski made most assists last season 12.

And on a side note, Muriel scored more non penalty goals than Lukaku, despite playing half the minutes. 20 vs 18.

Barça seems to have suffered alot from Messi departure and it took them longer time to cope with it. Looking better now, but they went out of GS for the first time in ages. It doesn't look like Juventus had the same falldown. They made it out on top of their group, beating a team of Chelsea's level for that first spot.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Juventus were counting on Ronaldo as the main goalscorer.

That was also Messi's situation at Barcelona.

You also got your numbers wrong concerning assists. Malinovski made most assists last season 12.

I didn't say anything about who had the most assists in Serie A. I just said what Lukaku and Mkhitrayan had.

 

[genardk]

That was also Messi's situation at Barcelona.

In addition to relying on Messi for chance creation as a playmaker. Ronaldo was being fed by the whole team for goal scoring camping mostly in the penalty box area at Juve taking every single FK, PK.
Playmaking, chance/goal creation out of nothing, dribbling, he had none of those other than rare instances here and there.

Check below video see if you will be able to detect differences between Messi's goals and Ronaldo's. In the same video, you can also see his assists as a playmaker, not all assists are created equally.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy0aqZ2M2x0

 

[Morty_]

Messi was quite poor against RM and AM last season, but he was still the best player of la liga though, he lead pretty much the attacking stats.

We were praising Benzema for carrying RMs offense last season(and the one before that again), and that praise was well deserved, but Messi is hold to different standards if we are being honest, anybody else than Messi doing what he did for Barca last season and we would be saying it was a world class season.

 

[MUFC OK]

Thought he was decent v Madrid, the pen miss aside. Hasnt lost his balance or weight of pass (freakish in both departments) but is definitely slowing down and seems to have lost a couple of yards of pace.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Messi was quite poor against RM and AM last season, but he was still the best player of la liga though, he lead pretty much the attacking stats. We were praising Benzema for carrying RMs offense last season(and the one before that again), and that praise was well deserved, but Messi is hold to different standards if we are being honest, anybody else than Messi doing what he did for Barca last season and we would be saying it was a world class season.

He won the Balon d'Or. Who is holding him to different standards, me and five other guys?

 

[Gehrman]

I'll give a less dismissive answer to this.

I don't think it's a very good idea to use individual player statistics for a team game, ranked by quantity, as evidence of their level of performance, because these numbers are not a one-way relationship. The team conditions the player's numbers.

Last season Barcelona played the most attacking football of any team in La Liga. They scored almost 20 more goals than RM and Atletico, but conceded 10 and 13 goals more than either of them. To a certain extent, Messi is responsible for the numbers being so high. But in another sense, Messi's numbers benefit from being in the most attacking team and having all play go through him. It makes him very likely to post very high numbers.

You mention key passes. Messi had 77 last season. But the 2nd most key passes were by a guy called David Ferreiro, who plays in Huesca. Other players on that top 10 are Kroos, Aspas, Canales, and Jesus Navas. This is, to a large extent, telling you people's roles in a team, not their ability.

A simple example is Benzema. Last season he was playing for a defensive and frankly boring RM team. He was not in the top 10 for key passes, had considerably less shots on target than Messi (and a similar number to Rafa Mir from, again, Huesca), was 5th in assists (and not in the top ten for assists/90), was not in the top 10 for passes into the penalty area, was 10th for shot creating actions.

This season RM are playing more attacking football. And now Benzema is 6th on key passes, averaging more shots on target per game than last season, 2nd on assists, 1st for passes into penalty area, 4th on shot creating actions... He's averaging more goals+assists/90 than Messi last season.

While I think he's having a good season, this increase in the numbers is mostly because we're playing different football.

If you go after big chances created instead of key passes, Messi leads that stat. I understand that Messi benefitted from having things going through him but that was because he was good enough to be that guy. And well because since Iniesta retired they havn't had a great playmaker apart from Messi.

 

[Daysleeper]

The equipe rated his performance 3.00/10.00

It’s because of the missed penalty

 

[Rojow]

Name those 50 players better than him this season, please. I really want to know them.

He played good against RM. I've seen his highlights. It's just that standars for him are so high and nowadays every action is reviewed on social media. Every single one.

You have a problem with Messi taking you free kicks? Hahaha. Just say you don't like him.

 

[Lecland07]

Name those 50 players better than him this season, please. I really want to know them.

He played good against RM. I've seen his highlights. It's just that standars for him are so high and nowadays every action is reviewed on social media. Every single one.

You have a problem with Messi taking you free kicks? Hahaha. Just say you don't like him.

Pretty much anyone who doesn't cost £4m in wages per goal for this year. It will be a long one.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

If you go after big chances created instead of key passes, Messi leads that stat.

Messi also leads key passes.
According to this, 2nd in big chances created is Iago Aspas. 3rd is Gerard Moreno. 4th is Sergio Canales. 5th is Jordi Alba.
Does that really look like most peoples list of "best attacking players in La Liga"? Probably not.
It can't be that it's very relevant for #1 but not so much for the other numbers.

 

[Brwned]

Name those 50 players better than him this season, please. I really want to know them.

He played good against RM. I've seen his highlights. It's just that standars for him are so high and nowadays every action is reviewed on social media. Every single one.

You have a problem with Messi taking you free kicks? Hahaha. Just say you don't like him.

I think Messi’s brilliant but he had a minimal impact on the game yesterday and in general has been very average not just by his standards but by the standards of top players across the board. It hasn’t been a good season for him. In his old age, in a dysfunctional team, sharing the limelight with already established players, he’s struggled. If he continues in this vein he would be an unmitigated failure for PSG. If you really appreciate what Messi brought to the table in past years then the way to respect that is to acknowledge how far below those standards he’s currently at, and back him to improve. Defending his current contribution is almost an insult to his legacy and standing.

 

[Daysleeper]

All this talk about how Barcelona were total shit and only Messi was holding them up was going to be put to the test this season when they didn't have him. They look on track to get 66-72 points, with a squad of nobodies and has-beens. The higher end of that is just 6 points below last season.

La liga is far worse this season. With Messi last season we were competing for the title, without him we are fighting for a top 4 finish.

 

[Rojow]

I think Messi’s brilliant but he had a minimal impact on the game yesterday and in general has been very average not just by his standards but by the standards of top players across the board. It hasn’t been a good season for him. In his old age, in a dysfunctional team, sharing the limelight with already established players, he’s struggled. If he continues in this vein he would be an unmitigated failure for PSG. If you really appreciate what Messi brought to the table in past years then the way to respect that is to acknowledge how far below those standards he’s currently at, and back him to improve. Defending his current contribution is almost an insult to his legacy and standing.

Had Mbappé or Neymar scored those passes and with him scoring his penalty, the opinion would be a total difference. Well, for sure he isn't the player he was a few years ago, but as i said, nowadays the overreaction is too much.

According to L'Equipe, Vinicus Junior had a better match than Messi.

 

[MrEleson]

Name those 50 players better than him this season, please. I really want to know them.

He played good against RM. I've seen his highlights. It's just that standars for him are so high and nowadays every action is reviewed on social media. Every single one.

You have a problem with Messi taking you free kicks? Hahaha. Just say you don't like him.

He really wasn’t that great at all.

If Ronaldo didn’t score against Brighton, missed a penalty and only created those 2 chances to Bruno and Sancho. Would it be considered a good game from him?

He was also dispossessed 23 times - by far the most on the pitch by any player.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

La liga is far worse this season. With Messi last season we were competing for the title, without him we are fighting for a top 4 finish.

Too much logic here, I'm afraid.

 

[genardk]

He really wasn’t that great at all.

If Ronaldo didn’t score against Brighton, missed a penalty and only created those 2 chances to Bruno and Sancho. Would it be considered a good game from him?

He was also dispossessed 23 times - by far the most on the pitch by any player.

Not a good comparison.. Ronaldo is a poacher that is one of the best served strikers in the Premier League, he gets at least 1 one on one in almost every game. His game other than goal scoring is almost non-existent as many United fans suggest in Ronaldo thread. The guy that gets those 1 on 1s at PSG is Mbappe who is served well by Messi. Messi's most goals or almost all 8-9 strikes that hit the bar are outside the box and not clear chances. When Ronaldo scores a goal out of the box 1-2 times a season or makes an amazing pass, that's a huge deal for him & his fans riot as it's so rare.

Also, Messi created those chances against Real not against Brighton, there is a huge difference. Ronaldo lacks the technical ability to provide the type of assists or chances Messi creates other than 1-2 times a season here and there (check Messi's pass to Mbappe in the first half).

 

[MrEleson]

Ronaldo is a poacher that is one of the best served strikers in the Premier League, he gets at least 1 one on one in almost every game

Not sure where you got this from but it’s far from the truth.