Lionel Messi | PSG Watch

Sargent7 said:
Las year without Messi PSG won the France Cup, this year with Messi PSG got knocked out in the round of 16. So PSG got worse with Messi.

And one more thing, two years ago PSG reached the CL Final without Messi, let's see how far they go this year with Messi, I mean, if they beat Real Madrid, but then they get knocked out in Quarter finals, it will still be a huge failure.
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Using your strange logic here..

Last year, PSG failed to win the Ligue 1, this year they are leading Ligue 1 by 13 points, so PSG got significantly better with Messi.
Or, last year PSG lost to City both games and got eliminated in CL. This year they have beaten City 2-0 home and lost 2-1 away, meaning they did significantly better with Messi against City, the best team in the Premier League and probably in whole Europe..
 
Zehner said:
This thread really is an endless source of captivating logic.
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Tbf you have greatly contributed to that logic as well! :nono:

Sargent7 said:
Las year without Messi PSG won the France Cup, this year with Messi PSG got knocked out in the round of 16. So PSG got worse with Messi.

And one more thing, two years ago PSG reached the CL Final without Messi, let's see how far they go this year with Messi, I mean, if they beat Real Madrid, but then they get knocked out in Quarter finals, it will still be a huge failure.
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Nah. The truth is he hardly made them better or worse. They're the same old team which is pretty unpredictable.

Daysleeper said:
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Yeah, 2022 is nearly over. 4 assists? Great tally and sample space indeed!! ESPN must be trolling at this point. :lol:

jamesjimmybyrondean said:
He's been playing well actually. He's just not scoring. Simple as that
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Well being a forward he's supposed to score. Such astronomical wages are only paid to players who score a lot.

And no, he isn't a midfielder. Midfielders actually have defensive duty and have to do off the ball work. Even attacking ones like KDB and Bruno.

RedDevilCanuck said:
His mind is on Qatar. That's his last chance at world cup glory.

Argentina has less talent than previous tournaments but they are gritty, balanced and seem to be on the same page.

He could still get motivated in the CL but I imagine games against Brest doesn't really excite Messi these days.
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How would you rate their chances??

Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Pochetino is the problem at PSG. Best squad in Europe. Can't get a cohherent tune out of them. Some how the players and Messi will carry the can for it.
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Football isn't played on paper. A very good team for FIFA but dysfunctional in real life. 3 primadonnas upfront who'll not track back or press. The midfield is all about Veratti. One injury away from being bang average. Good CBs but Ramos is finished.

Its a very good squad, sure. Top 5. Not the best in the world.

But hey, Poch was always going to be the convenient scapegoat since it's never a certain guy's fault.

Daysleeper said:
BS take, Messi’s average game without a goal this season is FAR better than Ronaldo’s without a goal. Messi should’ve had 2 assists in that match against Madrid. Missed penalty was bad, but I’d take that last Messi match when over some of the ones Ronaldo has scored in.

Not to say Messi was amazing against Madrid, but yes, he was good
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At his age, Ronaldo already had way more goal contributions adapting in a new and a tougher league in a weaker team in Italy.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
Because there are plenty of people still arguing that he's been amazing over the last 12 months.
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He has been amazing till the end of Copa, no question about that.
There has not been another player in La Liga or Copa or Copa Del Rey that did better than him. He has been the best creator, best dribbler, best goal scorer in Spain and Copa, and he did just fine in CL. Not to mention, no one comes close to him in terms of the beauty/difficulty of his goals or assists as a playmaker.
 
TenonTen said:
Well being a forward he's supposed to score. Such astronomical wages are only paid to players who score a lot.

And no, he isn't a midfielder. Midfielders actually have defensive duty and have to do off the ball work. Even attacking ones like KDB and Bruno.
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Of course. But he's not as finished as some would like to believe
 
TenonTen said:
At his age, Ronaldo already had way more goal contributions adapting in a new and a tougher league in a weaker team in Italy.
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At his age, Ronaldo continued playing as a tap-in expert taking all penalties and free-kicks at Juve, there is a reason why he was never seen as a serious Ballon D'or contender at Juve, a team that has been winning Serie A 7 times in a row before his arrival. At no time in Serie A history, there has been such dominance by a team. Tougher league arguments also do not make much sense, as the best team Juve in this tougher Serie A lost to 10-man Porto, Lyon, and Ajax in the CL, teams from supposedly inferior leagues. Ronaldo lacks creativity, playmaking, dribbling, passing skills to be used in the same position as Messi so direct comparisons using goal numbers are meaningless.

There is a also common misconception in this forum equating assists with playmaking and creativity. Using this strange logic, one can say Gerd Muller or Ronaldo are equally effective or better as a creator than Xavi, Zidane or Iniesta as they have similar/better assist numbers per game. It makes zero sense to compare Zidane, Xavi. Modric's impact in terms of goal contribution with Ronaldo just looking at assist numbers. Not to meantion, Ronaldo can only dream of the type of assists (or chances created) that those guys and Messi can create tbh, there is little overlap in terms of the quality/difficulty/technique level of the assists they provide.
 
jamesjimmybyrondean said:
Of course. But he's not as finished as some would like to believe
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Of course he is. He isn’t setting out not to score and PSG 2nd tier stars regularly got a lot of assists playing behind Neymar and Mbappe.
Messi is just regulated to supporting act. Nothing wrong with that.
Edit Mbappe and Neymar got 50 between them in the league last season simply by passing to each other and that’s with Neymar missing so much game time
 
cyberman said:
Of course he is. He isn’t setting out not to score and PSG 2nd tier stars regularly got a lot of assists playing behind Neymar and Mbappe.
Messi is just regulated to supporting act. Nothing wrong with that.
Edit Mbappe and Neymar got 50 between them in the league last season simply by passing to each other and that’s with Neymar missing so much game time
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No problem. I would quote you by the end of the season
 
genardk said:
Using your strange logic here..

Last year, PSG failed to win the Ligue 1, this year they are leading Ligue 1 by 13 points, so PSG got significantly better with Messi.
Or, last year PSG lost to City both games and got eliminated in CL. This year they have beaten City 2-0 home and lost 2-1 away, meaning they did significantly better with Messi against City, the best team in the Premier League and probably in whole Europe..
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Winning the league doesn’t mean they were better than last season when the champions lay in 11th place.
PSG have played like utter shit in the league this year. Possibly the worst performances since the take over
 
jamesjimmybyrondean said:
No problem. I would quote you by the end of the season
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Why? What’s that got to do with my point right now? Seems like you’re waiting to see if it turns around for him which backs up my point anyway?
Di Maria had 27 assists behind those two. 27 in the league alone!
 
cyberman said:
Why? What’s that got to do with my point right now? Seems like you’re waiting to see if it turns around for him which backs up my point anyway?
Di Maria had 27 assists behind those two. 27 in the league alone!
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It relates to your point. Most of you obviously don't watch the matches and just look at the stats if you think he's finished and can't pick up form again. He's been playing well he's just not been stat padding which is also his fault as he's missed some good chances. But he's getting back now this year and if he keeps going the narrative of him being finished would be put to bed. Which is why i said give it till end of the season. A bit premature to write off a player that just won the Balon dor and then moved to whole new environment for the first in his career

Di Maria has never had 27 assists in the league behind neymar and mbappe. Seems like you jumped to conclusion again
 
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cyberman said:
Why? What’s that got to do with my point right now? Seems like you’re waiting to see if it turns around for him which backs up my point anyway?
Di Maria had 27 assists behind those two. 27 in the league alone!
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When? I count 18 max.
 
TenonTen said:
.......


Football isn't played on paper. A very good team for FIFA but dysfunctional in real life. 3 primadonnas upfront who'll not track back or press. The midfield is all about Veratti. One injury away from being bang average. Good CBs but Ramos is finished.
...............
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The same old tired and lame excuses. Those same players looked far more formidable and defensively sound under the previous manager.
 
He has been playing great these last few games. I really think people are for some reason over exaggerating his lack of goals. If he keeps playing like this, eventually he will start scoring at absurd numbers again.

Its like theres no middleground with Messi on this forum. Either he's the best in the world by quite some margin, or he's finished. No in -between :lol:
 
TenonTen said:
Tbf you have greatly contributed to that logic as well! :nono:



Nah. The truth is he hardly made them better or worse. They're the same old team which is pretty unpredictable.



Yeah, 2022 is nearly over. 4 assists? Great tally and sample space indeed!! ESPN must be trolling at this point. :lol:



Well being a forward he's supposed to score. Such astronomical wages are only paid to players who score a lot.

And no, he isn't a midfielder. Midfielders actually have defensive duty and have to do off the ball work. Even attacking ones like KDB and Bruno.



How would you rate their chances??



Football isn't played on paper. A very good team for FIFA but dysfunctional in real life. 3 primadonnas upfront who'll not track back or press. The midfield is all about Veratti. One injury away from being bang average. Good CBs but Ramos is finished.

Its a very good squad, sure. Top 5. Not the best in the world.

But hey, Poch was always going to be the convenient scapegoat since it's never a certain guy's fault.



At his age, Ronaldo already had way more goal contributions adapting in a new and a tougher league in a weaker team in Italy.
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serie a allows the most goals or second most of the top 5 leagues. French league is definitely more physical

Italy won serie a 8 times in a row, psg didn’t even win their own league last year. Ronaldo also got knocked out by a French team in CL while playing for Juventus.
 
Daysleeper said:
serie a allows the most goals or second most of the top 5 leagues. French league is definitely more physical

Italy won serie a 8 times in a row, psg didn’t even win their own league last year. Ronaldo also got knocked out by a French team in CL while playing for Juventus.
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The moment a person compares roles of Messi's and Cristiano in terms of goals, they don't deserve a reply. Learn it:lol:
 
cyberman said:
Why? What’s that got to do with my point right now? Seems like you’re waiting to see if it turns around for him which backs up my point anyway?
Di Maria had 27 assists behind those two. 27 in the league alone!
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Is it true? 27 assists in the league is insane figure.
 
cyberman said:
Why? What’s that got to do with my point right now? Seems like you’re waiting to see if it turns around for him which backs up my point anyway?
Di Maria had 27 assists behind those two. 27 in the league alone!
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The most assists Di Maria ever had was 18 assists in league, where as Messi has 21. Di Maria is great creator but he is not Messi.
 
genardk said:
Using your strange logic here..

Last year, PSG failed to win the Ligue 1, this year they are leading Ligue 1 by 13 points, so PSG got significantly better with Messi.
Or, last year PSG lost to City both games and got eliminated in CL. This year they have beaten City 2-0 home and lost 2-1 away, meaning they did significantly better with Messi against City, the best team in the Premier League and probably in whole Europe..
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and what about Barcelona without Messi? Fail to pass group stage. Haters are funny though.
 
Pocho said:
and what about Barcelona without Messi? Fail to pass group stage. Haters are funny though.
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The only reason we have a prayer of top 4 is because of how awful la liga is this year. I’m grateful, but still.
 
Josh 76 said:
Everyone knows Messi is not the player he was. I just can’t understand why people still trying to criticise him.

Maradona and Pele were done by 32. George Best was done by 27. No one ever talks about their latter years when judging them as the GOAT.
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I think you are right. Messi is probably nearly done but even so he is declining at reasonable age too. Notable decline at around 34 is nothing to be ashamed of, when we are talking about average expectation of any GOAT in the past.

Pele - notable decline start at around 31, very poor to his standard since but regain his scoring form at 33, then probably done at top level at around 34
Maradona - done and feck up himself with drugs at around 31
Ronaldo - notable decline start at around 36-37?
Di Stefano - decline/done at around 38
Beckenbauer - notable decline start at around 32, no longer relevant at top level since
Cruyff - notable decline start at around 32, no longer relevant at top level since
Best - done and feck up himself with rock star lifestyle (parties, nightclubs, alcohol etc) at around 27
L.Ronaldo - done at around 30 with injuries/overweight problems, and no longer relevant at top level since
Zidane - done and retired at around 34

Perhaps the main criticism is that he had just won Ballon D'or so the expectation is still high, but he has not been playing anywhere near to that level for a while already.
 
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He won Ballon d'Or for what he DID. Not for what he HAS to do.
 
Daysleeper said:
The only reason we have a prayer of top 4 is because of how awful la liga is this year. I’m grateful, but still.
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How convenient that La Liga became awful just as Messi left.

Just as convenient as how a finance wiz was able to fix them with a few deals even though Messi was "30% of revenue" or whatever.
 
This whole 'La Liga is awful now that's why Barcelona can get 4th without Messi' thing is not really justified by anything.

La Liga has a big gap between 4th and 5th. In the last 5 seasons, 4th has averaged 70.6 points (std dev = 5.3) and 5th has averaged 61.8 (std dev = 2.8). If you extrapolate the current season's points to 38 games, Barcelona, who are currently 4th, would finish on 66-67 points. That's in line with the previous 4th placed teams and higher/equal than the previous 5th placed teams. It was always going to be very hard for Barcelona to drop out of the top 4. They are performing like a slightly worse than average 4th placed team, which does not matter since the gap between 4th and 5th is usually so large.

The league table looks unusual because Atletico have had an unexpected collapse, but it's been mostly offset by Betis performing very well. Betis would finish the season with 70 points, lower than the average (74) but in line with 19/20 and 18/19.

Outside of domestic competition, the two Spanish teams in the EL went through the group stages, same as in all previous 5 seasons. In the Champions League, 3 out of 5 teams went through, which is the lowest ratio in the last 5 seasons. But one of those was Barcelona; without them, it's 3/4, same as in 18/19 and 17/18. Spanish teams in the EL averaged 9.5 points in the group stage, compared to 11.3 in the previous 5 seasons. Spanish teams in the CL averaged 9 points (9.5 without Barcelona), compared to 11.8 points in the previous 5 seasons. Worse performances, but hardly "awful".
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
How convenient that La Liga became awful just as Messi left.

Just as convenient as how a finance wiz was able to fix them with a few deals even though Messi was "30% of revenue" or whatever.
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Not convenient at all, denying how poor la liga is is a joke.

Atletico and Real Madrid last year were FAR better than this year, same with Barca.

wake up, la liga is awful this year without question. Much worse than last season.

there are 8 teams in la liga with less goals than games played, which is by far the worst in Europe.

Last year we had a near 4 way race for the title, if you think this year’s Barca would be top 4 last season I have a beach house to sell you in Idaho.

Name one team from last year’s top 5 who are better this year. Perhaps Sevilla but they are already fading whereas last season they were much closer to the title with just a couple weeks to go.

Real Betis have improved, but anyone who doesn’t realize this is the crappiest la liga in 10+ years, just wake up
 
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Daysleeper said:
Not convenient at all, denying how poor la liga is is a joke.

Atletico and Real Madrid last year were FAR better than this year, same with Barca.

wake up, la liga is awful this year without question. Much worse than last season.

there are 8 teams in la liga with less goals than games played, which is by far the worst in Europe.

Last year we had a near 4 way race for the title, if you think this year’s Barca would be top 4 last season I have a beach house to sell you in Idaho.

Name one team from last year’s top 5 who are better this year. Perhaps Sevilla but they are already fading whereas last season they were much closer to the title with just a couple weeks to go.

Real Betis have improved, but anyone who doesn’t realize this is the crappiest la liga in 10+ years, just wake up
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Tbf the contrast in Messi's and some other La Liga players' UCL and La Liga form would point towards La Liga being poor for quite a few years recently.......

Quality definitely dropped since 2018ish
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
How convenient that La Liga became awful just as Messi left.
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Don't you know! Messi was carrying the entire league on his shoulders with his countless dribbles, key passes and a very high ultra-xG, xCG, chain xLA and stuff....:lol:

And Barcelona are basically Brighton without Messi.
 
TenonTen said:
Don't you know! Messi was carrying the entire league on his shoulders with his countless dribbles, key passes and a very high ultra-xG, xCG, chain xLA and stuff....:lol:

And Barcelona are basically Brighton without Messi.
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Barcelona certainly look like Brighton without Messi, they are now fighting to get a CL spot, instead of fighting for the title.

And understimating the money that Messi brought to La Liga revenue for many years it's ridiculous.

Also, who the hell cares about xCG? Messi is n1 top scorer of in the History of La Liga.
 
TenonTen said:
Don't you know! Messi was carrying the entire league on his shoulders with his countless dribbles, key passes and a very high ultra-xG, xCG, chain xLA and stuff....:lol:

And Barcelona are basically Brighton without Messi.
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Belittling these metrics is so, so stupid. You are at war with statistics. Good luck on that front.
 
Wolf1992 said:
Also, who the hell cares about xCG? Messi is n1 top scorer of in the History of La Liga.
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The topic isn't his entire career though. No one will/can argue against that.

Its in respect to general standard of La Liga in recent years.

I believe there's been a fall in quality since 2018(?)

Wolf1992 said:
Barcelona certainly look like Brighton without Messi, they are now fighting to get a CL spot, instead of fighting for the title.
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At the end of the day, Barcelona finished top 4 last season and will finish top 4 this season. In the grand scheme of things it's hardly a massive downfall.

They're in a sort of a rebuild phase as a club. They have coped alright.

Zehner said:
Belittling these metrics is so, so stupid. You are at war with statistics. Good luck on that front.
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Not looking at the obvious loopholes of these metrics is also stupid. These metrics can't be treated as gospel.

Also, many other statistical metrics are conveniently ignored to suit a particular agenda so there's that too.
 
Wolf1992 said:
Barcelona certainly look like Brighton without Messi, they are now fighting to get a CL spot, instead of fighting for the title.[/B]

And understimating the money that Messi brought to La Liga revenue for many years it's ridiculous.

Also, who the hell cares about xCG? Messi is n1 top scorer of in the History of La Liga.
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Barcelona looked like Arsenal without Xavi and Iniesta - unable to win the top things..

All Messi was is Henry at the top of Arsenal.

I know you disagree so it doesn't really matter.
 
The worst Liga season in recent memory we've had is the 2018-2019 season. Atletico finished with 76 points and Real Madrid finished with 68, the worst point tallies for a 2nd and 3rd placed team in the last 5 years. Barcelona were the only Spanish team to make it past the round of 16 in the Champions League. In the EL, Valencia made it the furthest, to the semi-finals. They were hammered 7-3 by Arsenal. Messi won the Balon d'Or for that season, the 2019 one. I don't remember many posts from people saying that he was lucky to score goals because La Liga was so shit.
 
Messi turned PSG into a worse team than before, last year they won the France Cup without Messi, and this year they got knocked out on the round of 16.

Getting knocked out in the round of 16 after years of reaching the final and winning it, it's an embarrassment for Messi.

And of course PSG is going to win the league this year, but it's not thanks to Messi, the guy has only scored two goals in 6 months, that's embarrassing. Say anything you want about Ronaldo but at least he's scored 9 goals in a much more difficult and competitive league.
 
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