In fairness to that poster, name a more complete CM than Seedorf?
Lionel Messi | PSG Watch
- Thread starter Samid
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He was completely dominated in La Liga winning only 2 league titles in 9 years. Juve was a great choice with their Serie A domination (helping him improve his poor league record) and 2 CL finals in 4 years.
He came to Manchester United, the 2nd most expensive squad in Europe which finished PL 2nd and 3rd in the previous 2 years and left Juve, the sinking ship, after our worst season in the last 10 years. Staying at Juve to help steady the ship was the major challenge, not leaving for United in the last minute before his contract ended..
This is literally what happened. No French teams wanted him either, listen to Wenger’s story on him. Just shows how hit and miss scouts are.That doesn't mean anything.
Tielemans who has been great in PL was a massive flop for Monaco, Emmanuel Dennis who has been great for Watford was a total flop in Bundesliga, and Kante never looked as good as he did in PL(Leicester and Chelsea) when he was in Ligue 1(almost gets relegated with Caen) and played in Ligue 2 before that.
People need to stop overrating the mighty PL, there are many reasons why a player might not do well in a different league, other than " he is shit".
Can imagine you as a scout watching Kante in Ligue 1, and saying :
"This Kante guy isn't doing much in this Ligue 1 farmers league, how the hell is he gonna perform in PL... don't want it, next"
Pogba.
Maybe next time choose a player that didnt also win the world Cup alongside their CL wins to make your faulty approach work
You think if Messi wins the world cup that half the people would be still choosing Ronaldo as their GOAT? Not a chance.
Maybe next time choose a player that didnt also win the world Cup alongside their CL wins to make your faulty approach work
You think if Messi wins the world cup that half the people would be still choosing Ronaldo as their GOAT? Not a chance.
So if Argentina had won their final and even if Messi didn't score he'd be the greatest ever?
And anyway Iniesta and Xavi just won their world cup based on their Barcelona team and tiki taka team with a few Real Madrid sprinkled in based on your previous postings. They never left their "comfort zone".
He won his first CL and Ballon D'or as a winger. He was every bit as good as Messi at the non goalscoring parts until he went to Madrid and started to focus on the goals.
Seedorf would definitely be on the shortlist for the best midfielder of all time. He was certainly a better all rounder than Xavi, Iniesta or Pirlo, who were all more specific in the things they were good at.
"Being complete" is a means to an end, not to itself. You often read "xyz is a complete player" - if somebody else is better than him altogether, it's irrelevant if he is less complete. Modric, Iniesta and Xavi were by no means complete players. All of them had significant weaknesses, yet they are almost universally agreed to be the top 3 over the last 10-20 years.
IMO, the specialist is almost always the preferrable option because his peak performance is higher. If you're in a situation in which you need a generalist, chances are something's wrong with your team, setup, etc.
Ronaldo was a wing forward with limited defensive duties when he won his first Ballon D'or. And no he was never as good a dribbler or passer as Messi. Seerdorf rarely appears high on the list as the best CM's ever despite his trophy haul.
What are Modric’s significant weaknesses? He’s as complete as it gets when it comes to central midfielders. Xavi & Iniesta were more specialist players though.
Ofcourse because you can't judge a player just on their ability in a single final - a tournament takes many levels to get them in to.
Messi would be my GOAT if he won the world Cup.
I'm pretty sure if either one of Ronaldo or Messi do it - it will change people's opinions too; it's why i just hope for Ronaldo to do it with Portugal in the next world cup to make it more of a lopsided view for good.
Messi winning the world cup will for example make him a better great than Maradona even for his own Argentian people - which has always been a big dissapointment in my eyes; how people from outside of his country rate him higher than arguably the people do from inside it
* anyway guys, il talk to you in the LIONEL VS Ronaldo thread & leave this thread for the updates against Metz, St Ettiene, Troyes or Lorient
SIUUUUU!!
Modric? Heading, strength, sprint speed, goal threat.
I wouldn’t say those are significant weaknesses as they aren’t primary pre-requisites of a central midfielder.
Even then, he’s not slow neither is he weak. He also has a thunderous shot from outside the box.
Yeah, according to that logic, Totti, Maldini, Pirlo, Xavi, Iniesta, Del Piero, Baggio, Baresi, Puyol, Shearer, Beckenbauer, Muller, Nesta, Ramos etc. are all unproven
Why do not we actually focus on the tangibles rather than the hypothetical assumptions?? like the fact that Messi is a world class playmaker and a dribbler and Ronaldo lacks all these skills? Why can't he get out of his comfort zone and start running the game as a playmaker or dribbling past players instead of staying in his usual comfort zone, the penalty box? I guess, it is hard for him to leave his comfort zone after so long. yet he is compared to Messi as if they are equivalent in terms of what they do on the pitch..
The funniest thing is when you remove the players that won the world Cup from that list - its so bloody true
My arse.
United have only won 2 CL'S and one of them is heavily due to Ronaldo and him being the main man of that team.
That's exactly my point.
Seedorf was obviously a very good player, and his resume is extremely impressive. I wouldn't call him "complete", though. More versatile than actually complete. And all in all he falls a bit short of the very best (in a historical context).
So you think Seedorf is the GOAT midfielder?
Maybe next time choose a player that didnt also win the world Cup alongside their CL wins to make your faulty approach work
You think if Messi wins the world cup that half the people would be still choosing Ronaldo as their GOAT? Not a chance.
Oop. I think I hear the sound of goalposts shifting again. First it was ‘versatility’. Then it was ‘yeah, versatility but they’ve got to have won the CL as well’. Then it was ‘well obviously playing in one league and winning the World Cup is better than being versatile and winning the Champions league….’
Make your mind up bruv…..
He’s absolutely not on the shortlist for the best midfielder of all time. One of the best of his generation perhaps.
Yes because I analyse so many thing to help choose my best ever player- more than just choosing how my best player ever plays than you who simply loves how Messi kicks the ball in one league against the majority same type of player for majority of 365 days on repeat!
It's just how it is man! Some guy falls in love for the most beautiful girl they believe they have ever seen, letting the women control the man for the rest of their life at home due to being in love!
Some guys however try to make sure they have got the hottest girl possible by testing that out and also then analysing them to see if she has a personality where she can be controlled by themselves to do whatever you wish for during anywhere anytime, anyway - living like an absolute King afterwards!!!!!!
I have to go off what others say on Matthaus, that was the only one I could think of.
Iniesta I don't think was as all round, people forget how impactful Seedorf was offensively as well as doing the grunt work/hard yards in the CMs or AM role. Weirdly they have almost identical stats from the CL (Seedorf: 125 apps, 11 goals, 27 assists | Iniesta: 130 apps, 11 goals, 29 assists).
Seedorf wasn't a 'good' Phil Neville who just payed everywhere, he was a world class CM who could do everything. I mean complete in that I can't think of a weakness in his his game, maybe bar heading although if we're comparing him to Xavi, Iniesta, Modric I don't think that's an issue! Obviously we're talking about the best CMs around so it is fine margins but he'd be my top CM in any system.
@NasirTimothy yes probably. I'm always torn between him Zidane & Xavi but if I think of how he played, he was just as good technically as those players, better defensively, much faster and physical than Xavi and basically played the game in such a beautiful way, people forget he used to line players up like and just skin them, had a glorious passing range and shot (inc. freekicks) & had a load of street tricks and nutmegs when it got tight.
Yeah, was wondering about that
Seedorf, complete midfielder? Which Seedorf would that be, because it sure wasn't Clarence
Even saying he was versatile is a bit of a stretch maybe. More adaptable than versatile, honestly
EDIT: seedorf was good defensively????
Yes because I analyse so many thing to help choose my best ever player- more than just choosing how my best player ever plays than you who simply loves how Messi kicks the ball in one league against the majority same type of player for majority of 365 days on repeat!
It's just how it is man! Some guy falls in love for the most beautiful girl they believe they have ever seen, letting the women control the man for the rest of their life at home due to being in love!
Some guys however try to make sure they have got the hottest girl possible by testing that out and also then analysing them to see if she has a personality where she can be controlled by themselves to do whatever you wish for during anywhere anytime, anyway - living like an absolute King afterwards!!!!!!
I’m guessing you’re a teenager……
Thought I was back in the Ronaldo vs Messi thread, my mistake.
Avoid this one as well.
Avoid this one as well.
Yeah, was wondering about that
Seedorf, complete midfielder? Which Seedorf would that be, because it sure wasn't Clarence
Even saying he was versatile is a bit of a stretch maybe. More adaptable than versatile, honestly
EDIT: seedorf was good defensively????
Oh Giorno, take those Real tinted specs off. Also can you just tag posters instead of spamming
so they know you're commenting on their post, that was one of the biggest complaints of the caf rift we need to fix. He played more advanced for you lot and, to a lesser extent, Ancelotti, but he was a CM through and through and he was good defensively.Just to kill this argument dead as this is the wrong thread, was he not on the Ballon D'or list for the best Defensive Midfielder of all time? Even though I don't really agree with that and see him as a true all round box-to-box I think we can assume he was at least half decent defensively...
Anyway Messi at PSG eh...
Literally had to go recheck the thread title
Oh Giorno, take those Real tinted specs off. Also can you just tag posters instead of spamming
Just to kill this argument dead as this is the wrong thread, was he not on the Ballon D'or list for the best Defensive Midfielder of all time? Even though I don't really agree with that and see him as a true all round box-to-box I think we can assume he was at least half decent defensively...
Anyway Messi at PSG eh...
I think italians would call him a carrillero or mezzala(@giorno ?) when used as a CM otherwise Seedorf was largely an attacking midfielder. You wouldn't want to use him too much as a DM even though he could be an emergency player there. If I remember correctly a regular move for Ancelotti was to introduce someone like Ambrosini against very tough opponents with Seedorf playing higher.
I think Ambrosini and then they obviously had Gattuso as well in that team.
I had to check, Gattuso was at Milan before Ancelotti. Also I'm totally unable to remember how they would setup pre-2001.
Wrong thread to post your arguments, insecure CR7 50cents fanboys. Like idol like fanboys indeed
The word Seedorf has appeared more times than Messi on this page. What the hell is going on?
the inconsistent Seedrof is even comparable to the clutch and consistent threat Iniesta was.
Marseille wanted him, and they got outbid by Leicester.
What does 50 cent have to do with anything?
Yeah, according to that logic, Totti, Maldini, Pirlo, Xavi, Iniesta, Del Piero, Baggio, Baresi, Puyol, Shearer, Beckenbauer, Muller, Nesta, Ramos etc. are all unproven
Why do not we actually focus on the tangibles rather than the hypothetical assumptions?? like the fact that Messi is a world class playmaker and a dribbler and Ronaldo lacks all these skills? Why can't he get out of his comfort zone and start running the game as a playmaker or dribbling past players instead of staying in his usual comfort zone, the penalty box? I guess, it is hard for him to leave his comfort zone after so long. yet he is compared to Messi as if they are equivalent in terms of what they do on the pitch..
You don't get it...Clarence Seedorf is the ultimate goat midfielder, better than Platini,Zidane,Xavi,Iniesta,Pirlo and Scholes.
Also Nicolas Otamendi is better than unproved Maldini, Beckenbauer, and Nesta... these three scrubs never did what Otamendi did in Portugal,England, Argentina, and Spain, a true GOAT.
Maldini should have left best Italian side ever , and go to inferior PL, and destroy english teams full of outdated british managers(except SAF) to show that he is as good as GOAT Nicolas Otamendi
What about Scholes? Another unproved scrub, inferior to De Bruyne who shined in Belgium,Germany and England.
You don't get it...Clarence Seedorf is the ultimate goat midfielder, better than Platini,Zidane,Xavi,Iniesta,Pirlo and Scholes.
Also Nicolas Otamendi is better than unproved Maldini, Beckenbauer, and Nesta... these three scrubs never did what Otamendi did in Portugal,England, Argentina, and Spain, a true GOAT.
Maldini should have left best Italian side ever , and go to inferior PL, and destroy english teams full of outdated british managers(except SAF) to show that he is as good as GOAT Nicolas Otamendi
What about Scholes? Another unproved scrub, inferior to De Bruyne who shined in Belgium,Germany and England.
I don't know about Platini and Zidane, they did the business in several leagues and actually won something at International level. Unsurprisingly the french are the best.
The thing that I don't get about Messi not proving it somewhere else is that can we actually say that Ronaldo proved himself in other leagues, he didn't actually changed the fortunes of his teams domestically. Real Madrid only won two league titles and Juventus kept winning but were less dominant. In general I don't really get that argument but in this case we are comparing two players that have fairly different trophy cabinets, so it makes even less sense.
Boulogne not Caen (you didn't listen to Wenger's story)
For me the trophies are irrelevant. Judging purely on the level of ability and individual skill, Messi is the best I've seen by quite some margin. He's the only player who made me make any effort to watch a team other than United each week (when he at Barcelona) . His dribbling, playmaking, and the diversity of goals scored were a joy to watch. He epitomised why I love football.