Lionel Messi | PSG Watch

Maybe he's unhappy, and the injury can't have helped. Must be difficult at a professional level when you've spent your entire footballing life growing through a single system and then move to a new setup in a new country during your declining years. I'm not setting up my violin or anything but its got to be harder to adapt when those are your prior circumstances.
 
mariachi-19 said:
Yeah but atleast one can still call himself world class at 34… I mean he can do at nearly 37 while the other looks dog shit in a farmers league
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One is on his way to 7th Ballon D'or at the age of 34, the other is not even a top 5 candidate (won his last Ballon 5 years ago and probably will never see the podium again).
 
Ekkie Thump said:
Maybe he's unhappy, and the injury can't have helped. Must be difficult at a professional level when you've spent your entire footballing life growing through a single system and then move to a new setup in a new country during your declining years. I'm not setting up my violin or anything but its got to be harder to adapt when those are your prior circumstances.
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Looks at the quality of the league, the players he’s currently playing with…

Yeah nah
 
mariachi-19 said:
Looks at the quality of the league, the players he’s currently playing with…

Yeah nah
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Well yeah, for sure he should be doing a lot better than he is. I'm looking for reasons he isn't. Can't believe Father Time's chopped his legs off overnight.
 
mariachi-19 said:
Yeah but atleast one can still call himself world class at 34… I mean he can do at nearly 37 while the other looks dog shit in a farmers league
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Dumb take, Messi has overall had a better 2021 than Ronaldo. Ronaldo struggles against the top 6 as he’s gotten older.

Messi hasn’t looked good this new season at all but still a better year than Ronaldo.
 
RedRonaldo said:
I don’t understand why all the sudden criticism on Messi (or Ronaldo) on their lack of pressing or being lazy on the pitch. When a player has same talent as they do, and scoring that many goals and being so dominating, surely you wouldn’t want to waste their energy on doing those dirty works?
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Messi aint scoring that many goals though, that’s why the criticism is coming. You can be lazy as feck if you keep producing lots of goals. If he can pick up there, people will shut up quick enough.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Messi aint scoring that many goals though, that’s why the criticism is coming. You can be lazy as feck if you keep producing lots of goals. If he can pick up there, people will shut up quick enough.
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This is true but the key is winning the big trophies. That’s the only way to actually silence haters. And even then only until the next season…..
 
To be fair - all he has to score is 2 goals in a semi final and a final & then things are back to normal for him and his fans.

Maybe he is just saving the energy for that.
 
ariveded said:
Ronaldo must be loving it. His biggest difference with Messi is his adaptation and probably, it's a good time to appreciate the former.
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Messi is about to get another one in the Ballon Dor lead, and United are worse than PSG, so not really.
 
Morty_ said:
Messi is about to get another one in the Ballon Dor lead, and United are worse than PSG, so not really.
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It's why I disbelieve this "Messi is now Old Crap"

Just for his last year tenure at his home club Barcelona - he was good enough to be viewed as a Balon D'or player.

Literally few months in to moving away from Barcelona - the guy has gotten old apparently for PSG.


A cherry on top of the cake of Barcelona, that is now just a raisin in a fruit and nut cake of PSG.
 
I think anybody thinking he's finished are being desperate or ignorant. Although he's part of the problem, the way Psg play is the main reason. Even Neymar is not playing as good as before. The two times I've seen Psg have a good game Messi was arguably the best player.
 
Messi should come to Feyenoord. Arne Slot has made all our players better and has them in perfect shape. Come play for a real club son.
 
Messi’a stamina is pretty shite. Has been for awhile now. The lack of intensive training at Barcelona has probably taken a toll.

I expect him to get 15 goals or so and for PSG to crash out in the quarter finals.
 
genardk said:
One is on his way to 7th Ballon D'or at the age of 34, the other is not even a top 5 candidate (won his last Ballon 5 years ago and probably will never see the podium again).
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What a load of crap. Just because Juve suck donkey balls when he was there does not make him bad. Remember the ridiculous Ronaldo holding Juve back ? How are your team doing without him by the way. He should have won in 2018 instead of Modric.
 
jamesjimmybyrondean said:
I think anybody thinking he's finished are being desperate or ignorant. Although he's part of the problem, the way Psg play is the main reason. Even Neymar is not playing as good as before. The two times I've seen Psg have a good game Messi was arguably the best player.
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They’ll get better
 
Thiago Silva had to deal with the league thing for years, then he goes to the so-called "best league in the world" and barely concedes a goal way past his peak. To hear some people 5 years ago, he wasn't an elite defender because he played in Ligue 1. The best players are the best players. It doesn't matter that Messi is in Ligue 1. I expect Ronaldo to be there in a year or two anyway.
 
KeanoMagicHat said:
Thiago Silva had to deal with the league thing for years, then he goes to the so-called "best league in the world" and barely concedes a goal way past his peak. To hear some people 5 years ago, he wasn't an elite defender because he played in Ligue 1. The best players are the best players. It doesn't matter that Messi is in Ligue 1. I expect Ronaldo to be there in a year or two anyway.
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Relax dude, your boy isn't performing well, it wasn't gonna go on forever. Listen to some sad songs, read some sad love poetry and cry your eyes out. We're nearing the end of an era.
 
Relevated said:
Relax dude, your boy isn't performing well, it wasn't gonna go on forever. Listen to some sad songs, read some sad love poetry and cry your eyes out. We're nearing the end of an era.
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It's mad how a defender like Thiago Silva has become an excuse for an attacker like Messi.

Sounds like ligue 1 is the toughest league ever.
 
The reactions in here are, as always, completely over the top in both directions.

There's no denying Messi had a very slow start at PSG. Yes, he also had good games without scorers and people overlook that but it's also clear that Pocchetino faces a real problem when Messi, Neymar and Mbappe on the pitch. Tuchel's work at Chelsea should speak volumes about the importance of a cohesive and hard working unit in modern football. And that's hard to accomplish when you one of your attacker runs only 8.3 kms and another one (Mbappe) only 7.9. And Messi is part of this problem, like it or not.

On the flipside, saying Messi "is finished" is also a very superficial take after the season he just had and the Copa he played. You also see in his plays that he's still among the best out there: Finishing, dribbling, passing, it's all there. And he always ran as few as he did against City. It is just becoming more obviousand gets pointed out more frequently when things don't work out, especially if the team looks a bit disjointed and he doesn't get on the ball in dangerous areas enough.

The really interesting question isn't if he's finished, the question is if players like him, Mbappe, Cristiano and to a lesser extent Neymar are still worth their "laziness" against the ball in a modern game that's been dominated by teams that consist of 11 hard working players those last few years.
And if you come to the conclusion that no team who wants to win the UCL can allow itself the luxury of carrying such a lazy player, one has to ask the question if any player without exceptional work rate can really be labelled the best in the world anymore, regardless of the skills he possesses.

Right now, it is definitely remarkable that the teams of the superstar players (Messi, Ronaldo, Mbappe, Neymar) have been underperforming for at least 3 or 4 years. There are two explanations for that:

a) They didn't in truly elite teams, especially regarding the coaching, but would still excel in squads like City or Bayern like Messi did for Pep and Cristiano for Zidane while being just as lazy as nowadays

b) Football has evolved and the days of the divas have finally passed. Tuchel's performance at Chelsea seems to imply this. Anyway, this would also mean that teams like Pep's Barca wouldn't compete these days either, because this one also carried Messi's low work rate.
 
Zehner said:
b) Football has evolved and the days of the divas have finally passed. Tuchel's performance at Chelsea seems to imply this. Anyway, this would also mean that teams like Pep's Barca wouldn't compete these days either, because this one also carried Messi's low work rate.
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Messi and Ronaldo were never like Roberto Firmino but they once pressed way more than they do now. They didn't do a lot but they did enough not to be complete liabilities. Messi did once press for Guardiola. In 2009-10, he had an average of 1.2 interceptions per game. Now it's 0.3. He averaged 0.9 tackles per game, now it's 0.2. Ronaldo averaged 0.7 interceptions per game in 2011/12, now it's 0.1.

I can't find the pressures stats from back then but looking at Messi's pressing stats since 2017-18, he had 413 pressures, then it went down to 324, then 287. Now it's 42 (still early in the season, but probably end up 250 odd). So it is a gradual decline with age.
 
KeanoMagicHat said:
Messi and Ronaldo were never like Roberto Firmino but they once pressed way more than they do now. They didn't do a lot but they did enough not to be complete liabilities. Messi did once press for Guardiola. In 2009-10, he had an average of 1.2 interceptions per game. Now it's 0.3. He averaged 0.9 tackles per game, now it's 0.2. Ronaldo averaged 0.7 interceptions per game in 2011/12, now it's 0.1.

I can't find the pressures stats from back then but looking at Messi's pressing stats since 2017-18, he had 413 pressures, then it went down to 324, then 287. Now it's 42 (still early in the season, but probably end up 250 odd). So it is a gradual decline with age.
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My recollection is that Messi used to press a lot in the Pep team. That was a pressing team.

The walking around and not pressing began only a few years ago.
 
Jackal981 said:
What a load of crap. Just because Juve suck donkey balls when he was there does not make him bad. Remember the ridiculous Ronaldo holding Juve back ? How are your team doing without him by the way. He should have won in 2018 instead of Modric.
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Yeah, when it comes to failures it is all teams', managers' fault at Juve, United, Portugal, Ronaldo is blameless. Most Juve fans are happy that he finally left, the main concern was him leaving for free and luckily we found United ready to pay for him. Juve significantly regressed with him just like United now. I see even many United fans complaining about Ronaldo's negative effect on United performance on this very forum, but you can continue to ignore their views as well. He had 5 managers in the last 3.5 years, but of course he is blameless again as usual. Just because he scored against La Liga 13th Villareal, Swiss giants Young Boys, and Atalanta with 5-6 main players missing is not that impressive tbh unless obviously you are a Ronaldo fan.. At PL, he is struggling (a single goal in the last 7 games) being especially unable to score against top sides as usual.. Oh, and that game vs Serbia with a superior Portugal was a complete disaster, but of course he has no part in that failure as well..
 
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KeanoMagicHat said:
Messi and Ronaldo were never like Roberto Firmino but they once pressed way more than they do now. They didn't do a lot but they did enough not to be complete liabilities. Messi did once press for Guardiola. In 2009-10, he had an average of 1.2 interceptions per game. Now it's 0.3. He averaged 0.9 tackles per game, now it's 0.2. Ronaldo averaged 0.7 interceptions per game in 2011/12, now it's 0.1.

I can't find the pressures stats from back then but looking at Messi's pressing stats since 2017-18, he had 413 pressures, then it went down to 324, then 287. Now it's 42 (still early in the season, but probably end up 250 odd). So it is a gradual decline with age.
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NasirTimothy said:
My recollection is that Messi used to press a lot in the Pep team. That was a pressing team.

The walking around and not pressing began only a few years ago.
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Messi never ran much. Here's for instance an article from 2014 about a game in which he ran 6.8 km. His season average in 2014 (8.2) was below the distance covered against City (8.3). It's always been a stick to beat him with when his teams lost. There were always many arguments that defended him, this article provides quite a good overview. Some of them: He doesn't cover large distances but he makes more fast runs and sprints than most. Or that he does it to get into better positions and that it is actually anticipation. Many players have to learn to run less during their developing years to become more effective, it's actually quite a common theme.

In summary, the line of argument was always that Messi moved less but still got into enough positions: His pressing stats were good, he got into enoug goal scoring positions and so forth. Currently neither of this is the case. His pressures per game dropped significantly and he also gets on the ball less frequently in dangerous areas. But this doesn't necessarily have to do with his work rate, it might also have to do with the team shape, tactic, cohesion etc. Of course it is harder for him to "get a grip" on an opponent player carrying the ball or intercepting a pass when there are two other players on the pitch who do as few as him or even less in Mbappe's case.

I guess the stats that would really help to paint a clearer picture are fast runs, sprints, etc. and compare them to previous seasons. I doubt that his stats in these areas are much worse than they used to be because his distance covered remained largely the same throughout all those years. So if he reduced the intensity, this would mean that he would have moved more by walking/jogging etc. and that doesn't seem to be the case.
 
Zehner said:
Messi never ran much. Here's for instance an article from 2014 about a game in which he ran 6.8 km. His season average in 2014 (8.2) was below the distance covered against City (8.3). It's always been a stick to beat him with when his teams lost. There were always many arguments that defended him, this article provides quite a good overview. Some of them: He doesn't cover large distances but he makes more fast runs and sprints than most. Or that he does it to get into better positions and that it is actually anticipation. Many players have to learn to run less during their developing years to become more effective, it's actually quite a common theme.

In summary, the line of argument was always that Messi moved less but still got into enough positions: His pressing stats were good, he got into enoug goal scoring positions and so forth. Currently neither of this is the case. His pressures per game dropped significantly and he also gets on the ball less frequently in dangerous areas. But this doesn't necessarily have to do with his work rate, it might also have to do with the team shape, tactic, cohesion etc. Of course it is harder for him to "get a grip" on an opponent player carrying the ball or intercepting a pass when there are two other players on the pitch who do as few as him or even less in Mbappe's case.

I guess the stats that would really help to paint a clearer picture are fast runs, sprints, etc. and compare them to previous seasons. I doubt that his stats in these areas are much worse than they used to be because his distance covered remained largely the same throughout all those years. So if he reduced the intensity, this would mean that he would have moved more by walking/jogging etc. and that doesn't seem to be the case.
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Fair enough. I feel like though around 2013-14 he stopped running partly as well because of a health problem, he was vomiting a lot after games if I remember and seemed a little bit off for a year or so. Then by 2015 he was somewhat back to his best and started running more again. But young Messi from around 2010 did run quite a bit more.
 
KeanoMagicHat said:
Fair enough. I feel like though around 2013-14 he stopped running partly as well because of a health problem, he was vomiting a lot after games if I remember and seemed a little bit off for a year or so. Then by 2015 he was somewhat back to his best and started running more again. But young Messi from around 2010 did run quite a bit more.
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As far as I know the vomitting occurred throughout his entire early career. As far as I know, he changed his diet around that time. Messi said himself that he was eating lots of junk food up until this point in time. Back then there were also stories of how the birth of his second son made him more professional etc.

From the information available, I find it very hard to derive anything about his work ethic. For what it's worth, I'd say he's not putting in less effort than he did for Barcelona. That is by the way also part of the reason why I think the talks of him being finished physically are way over the top. We see players like Modric who on average ran probably 50% more kilometres per game than Messi maintaining a world class level on the wrong side of 35.

It's not about age, it's about tactics and team cohesion, IMO. Ironically, I also think that the "greed" of players like Messi, Neymar and Cristiano actually prevented them from having even better careers. Because in the end, the teams that played the best football as a collective in the past 3-4 years (Liverpool, Bayern, City, Chelsea) can't afford them.
 
Zehner said:
It's not about age, it's about tactics and team cohesion, IMO. Ironically, I also think that the "greed" of players like Messi, Neymar and Cristiano actually prevented them from having even better careers. Because in the end, the teams that played the best football as a collective in the past 3-4 years (Liverpool, Bayern, City, Chelsea) can't afford them.
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I also think there is a type of greed in the way they play at the moment too, not really helping their team-mates, for example in Ronaldo's case, he never gets injured.

But his risk of injury is so low because he never makes a tackle or gets in a difficult situation where he might pull up. In Ronaldo's head, an injury = a few months out = risk of not scoring. Compared to say Cavani who will run all day, but will risk injuries and pain. Ronaldo doesn't risk any pain because it will hinder his quests for goals. Messi is similar. What's also interesting apart from their scoring records, is their appearances. High-intensity forwards are not supposed to be breaking appearance records like they are. The reason they are is because of their complete lack of effort off the pitch. It's conserving energy so they can profit in very specific moments. It is in a way a selfish style.
 
He just needs competent coaching and a midfield behind. Ironically him and Ronaldo will regret not joining Pep City. CL and Ballon Dor was basically guaranteed there with either of those 2.
 
KeanoMagicHat said:
I also think there is a type of greed in the way they play at the moment too, not really helping their team-mates, for example in Ronaldo's case, he never gets injured.

But his risk of injury is so low because he never makes a tackle or gets in a difficult situation where he might pull up. In Ronaldo's head, an injury = a few months out = risk of not scoring. Compared to say Cavani who will run all day, but will risk injuries and pain. Ronaldo doesn't risk any pain because it will hinder his quests for goals. Messi is similar. What's also interesting apart from their scoring records, is their appearances. High-intensity forwards are not supposed to be breaking appearance records like they are. The reason they are is because of their complete lack of effort off the pitch. It's conserving energy so they can profit in very specific moments. It is in a way a selfish style.
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Yes, exactly. That's what many people who admire the two don't want to hear: Their unreal stats partly stem from the exceptional roles they played in star packed super squads. Sure, they justified their respective status through their quality but in the end it definitely boosted up their stats in a way that most likely would not have been possible in previous eras. It's context that doesn't take anything away from their class and accolades but people who only look at goal stats and want to compare them to put their idol on a pedestal don't like that.

As said in my initial post, I think the real question is if these exceptional roles are still worth the costs, not if the two have fundamentally regressed that much physically. Right now, the teams at the top are very cohesive and they don't feature players who don't have to press. But this might also be the case because those teams don't have the money to shoehorn these players in. Who knows how good City would be with Messi in the squad. They could be better or they could be worse. Or vice versa: Do Messi and Ronaldo look like they have regressed because they actually regressed or because their roles are outdated/their squads aren't as cohesive and superior as they used to be?
 
DoneDaDa said:
He just needs competent coaching and a midfield behind. Ironically him and Ronaldo will regret not joining Pep City. CL and Ballon Dor was basically guaranteed there with either of those 2.
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I am not too sure either of them can do Pep’s pressing style. They are both lazy as f
 
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