He is not, between what he said and what you said, there is a middle ground. Comparing Southgate and Deschamps is wrong
Lionel Messi | PSG Watch
- Thread starter Samid
- Start date
Confused golden ball and Ballon d'Or so my mistake
We live in different times. Back then you didn't have the internet to rehash the same arguments 100 times a day over and over. Also despite me being a Messi fan, Ronaldo simply has a more succesful CL career(whatever nuance you put into it) which will be the point that people will resort to.
My point was looking at two managers who have jobs at top 5 international sides (which I think you could include England in). You wouldn't get them managing at the same position on club football they'd have to drop quite a bit, neither would get a job at Real, Barca, man city Liverpool, us, bayern even arsenal and spurs wouldn't take them likely. And again martinez despite getting sacked by mid table premier league clubs, walks into two top 10 international gigs. There will be odd exceptions but the standard of manager is generally far lower at international level
I'd say it's completely different . The jobs are way too different to have a proper comparison.
All I know is that club football is higher in terms of level but in terms of prestige, nothing will ever touch a World Cup
Right but we're using it to compare players ability, so prestige of the competition shouldn't really come into it. The proper comparison is that Deschamps gets 3 million euros a year, top club managers can get 4 or 5 times that, so obviously the top talent is going to go to the positions that pay more, where they can work with their team regularly, and can make transfers.
No one remembers Del Bosque or LVG? Even after Messi did a rabbit ears taunt at him after the Netherlands game?
So, this is it, isn't it? The GOAT has bid the CL his farewell. I'm glad it was us who could give him the send off he deserved. As a Bayern fan, I'm truly going to miss him
They can but it won't work. Platini has a better European Cup career than Maradona, you think that matters? DiStefano won the European Cup 5 times on the bounce whereas Pele didn't even play in Europe (and won the Copa Lib only twice), who was thought of as the better player?
Also in 30 years, people won't debate it on the internet (or whatever space age technology they are using then), they won't care as much. They'll be more interested in whoever is playing then.
In every sporting rivalry, once time elapses, there is always one who is thought of as being better. Magic Johnson is now generally considered to be better than Larry Bird, even though at the time it was a hot debate. The same thing will happen here.
Pelé won 3 world cups in total. that's a bit different than 1 vs none. Also Pelé was so supernatural that Cruyff said "I can be another Di Stefano, but never another Pelé". And it's not like Cryuff was too young to have witnessed Pelé. But anyway. Like I've said before, both Messi and Cristiano have over 1000 matches you can watch to determine their quality. For me neither needed a world cup to determine how good they actually are/were. Messi probably needed it more in terms of legacy with him being labelled Maradonnas heir since he was a youngster. Essentially, its not that he was a lesser footballer before, but in terms of his legacy it would seem lacking for him not won one.
People can indeed watch Messi and Ronaldo's matches in the future, but very few people will do that. The reason I know this is that people now don't watch Maradona or Pele's full matches. Most can't be bothered. The most they'll do typically is watch highlights and look at stats/trophy records. They'll be too preoccupied with whoever is playing at that time.
The current Argentina manager said that the mentality of the previous teams was that "Messi wil win it for us". So when he took over he tried to change the mentality to "we will win for Messi". And he first played the team without Messi to make them solid and then intergrate Messi into it. I think that mentality shined through, however there still something painfully average about that team in general. The only good thing someone like Acuna did was win a penalty. Going forward they were super reliant on Messi for creativity and Di Maria now and then. Despite the idea of them being defensively solid, they kept conceding after going ahead. I can't believe how close they came to bothcing it vs Holland and after even after collapsed vs France, Messi scored a goal in extra time which should have sealed it, but instead they gave away another stupid penalty. It was jammy as feck.
I've been watching World Cups a long time, I can't recall a worse squad that's actually won it and I include the 1986 squad. Maradona was obviously better in 86 than Messi was in 22 but I think the 86 squad was also better.
You're obviously older than me, so you've seen more WC's than me, but I do cringe a bit if people say the team was carrying Messi. Yeah they had hard workers, but a lot of them looked ready to get sent off at any moment and you can't be solid, if you cant kill games when you have a good lead. Like i've said before, apart from the guys at Man Utd, the only ones i want in a man utd squad from that team would be the goalkeeper as a squad option and Messi on a 1 year contract and no longer due to his age.
Messi at his peak, proved he can do it everywhere and against everyone. I'd say it's more than enough, the World Cup was the cherry on the cake but without it, he still had a legitimate claim at being the Goat
Well yeah obviously. I don't disagree he has a claim to being the GOAT, what's weird for me is people calling him the GOAT before the world cup who now claim that without a world cup you can't be the GOAT
You expecting logic in the CAF is weird
Ive always been unimpressed by his CL performances post the xavi, iniesta, pep/enrique era. But you cant not call him the GOAT post world cup, he has won everything on his plate.
Tbh since most of those who have a claim for it have now won it. It's gonna take something better or equivalent to Messi's club career to even be close to a claim like that
Yeah but if mbappe comes close to Messi's club career he shouldn't be rated higher just because he happened to play for a very strong international side in an era where most aren't that great, even if mbappe wins the world cup in 2026 and 2030 he shouldn't be rated higher than Messi unless he surpasses him at a club level (which I think he'll struggle with, particularly if he stays at psg)
Messi is the GOAT and better than Ronaldo for what he did at club level.
I'm not argentinian, i couldn't care less about him winning the WC, for me the debate was over already before December, as i don't need a tournament held every 4 years to decide who's better player.
Honestly, the stand out moments of Messis club football slowed way down when he turned 28 odd. If you value highlights against Osasuna etc then the highlights go on but being a presence in the biggest games, in the biggest moments, stopped a long time ago. It’s as if he and Busquets decided to get older than they are at the same time and just coast through football
That's fair enough, I entirely respect that opinion, I have them as the two best I've seen. Like you said I think it's better to base an opinion on who plays best over a career rather than 3-7 games every 4 years. Hummers has won a world cup, but would anyone have him as better than ferdinand? Even varane I wouldn't put as better than rio and he's had 4 champions leagues and a world cup
Platini and Maradona peak never coincided, when Platini was declining Maradona started to hit his prime.
There isn't a very big gap between them, considering Platini had a goated passing, control and vision, where Maradona was better was at dribbling.
I'd argue the gap in talent between Messi and Ronaldo is bigger, considering Messi is better than Ronaldo at everything except scoring.
I never needed the WC to notice that Messi is better than Ronaldo.
Arsenal hired Arteta, who was a nobody as manager back then.
I can see Deschamps getting a decent job after France, Southgate definitely won't get a decent job.
You never needed it but a lot of casual fans did.
Re Maradona and Platini, that's not strictly true. The crowning achievement of Maradona's career was in 1986, when he was 25 years old. Platini at that point had just won 3 straight Ballon D'Ors (83, 84, 85) and a European Cup in 85. He also won the Euros in 84 with a record number of goals. There is a 5 year age gap but Maradona arrived in Italy in 84 to witness the height of Platini's success so for a few years they were direct rivals.
I do agree that it was closer between them than is generally thought nowadays, but that's my point; over time the gap grows.
Oh yeah, I know and agree with everything. I wasn't bigging up the Argentine squad and not putting Messi down. I just wanted to point out that the team was there for Messi, who was then able to be fantastic (in spells at least). I think to do that and get the best out of a 35-year-old Messi you need a bunch of players who know their place and that they are essentially there as a backup. PSG is not that and no top team will be, which is why Messi is easy to play out of games for top opposition. He's a passenger in big games for PSG but I do not think it is his fault. I think the midfield plays too far away from the fowards for a start and I think they need a ball-carrying midfield who will cover the space in the attacking half and be a central link for the whole team. Pogba - not the current version but a functional version - would have been interesting for them.
Messi doesn't get a complete pass. He is obviously not putting in much of a shift and obviously doesn't care that much about PSG or their project/future. Still, I think there is absolutely a way that he could be used better than he has been in Paris.
I'm analyzing entire career, i know Messi hasn't been the best at UCL knockout post 2018, but what should matter at the end it's the entire career.
Ronaldo used to be considered a bottler before 2014.
I remember skipping a university class one day in 2012 to go with some of my classmates to a mall to watch a Real vs Barcelona midweek clasico. Most of my mates were calling Ronaldo bottler, and Messi was heavily favoured as the "big game" player, including UCL and clásicos.
It's amazing how things can change in just a couple of years.
Yes it's a far worse team than Barca 08-12
Ramos is a fancy name on paper then you remember that in 2008 and 2010 he was being started at RIGHT BACK.
Would you take Ramos at RB over Dani Alves? Hell no. And you wouldn't take Arbeola over him either if we're speaking about 2012 Spain.
-Fabregas was at Barca in 2011/12 when he was starting for Spain and before that he was a bench player so my point about Spain being a worse version of Barca stands.
-David Silva only started in 2012 because Villa was injured. Villa who was Barca's CF at that time so once again the point stands.
-Torres only won Euro 2008 as a starter and Barca had Eto'o who was better than him at that time.
I maintain what I said, 08-12 Spain is the best national team side of the 21st century and they're still nowhere near 08-12 or 14/15 Barca, 14-18 Madrid, 13 Bayern, 20 Bayern, 19 Liverpool or 18 City
Indeed, but it was just 2-3 years of coincidence at best, Platini was hitting his prime already even before moving to Juve when he was at Saint Etienne.
Cristiano and Messi peak years coincided way more, and the comparison between it's easier to do.
I have no clue what you mean here.
The team was not the same then. For me, if you take Messi, you make him main player. Bulid team around him meaning Neymar or Mbappe is on bench or sold. Right now, you don't know who does what in that team. Against good teams that is. The only thing that you see is lack of balance. Here comes also a problem. Messi will not be staying at PSG to long. There is no guarantee that Neymar is there next year. So what do you do? Do you bulid around Mbappe, meaning that you put a better player (Messi) on bench?
It will depend how he would win them World Cups. These discussions are very fluid, I don't think any of us has a right to say which criterion should matter more than another. Personally there ain't a single best ever player, it's about eras
He means neymar has missed games 8 of the last 9 years that have fallen on his sister's birthday and he's always seen at her parties
For me you shouldn't build a team around a 35 year old no matter how talented, for us we were kind of forced into it because martial was shit, cavani was only available when Uruguay were playing and greenwood was arrested, you're far better building the team around mbappe who you can expect to play 90 minutes every week. You're likely to yet more out of Messi if you can manage his minutes, I know his game is less reliant on athleticism than others but even still, building a team around 35 year old isn't the best idea.
For me even if mbappe scored the chance he created near the end of extra time in the final and won it with 4 goals in the final and was 2-0 against Messi in terms of world cups, he'd still have an awful long way to go to surpass him, even if he was ahead on the international game
Didn't know that. What a guy.He means neymar has missed games 8 of the last 9 years that have fallen on his sister's birthday and he's always seen at her parties
For me you shouldn't build a team around a 35 year old no matter how talented, for us we were kind of forced into it because martial was shit, cavani was only available when Uruguay were playing and greenwood was arrested, you're far better building the team around mbappe who you can expect to play 90 minutes every week. You're likely to yet more out of Messi if you can manage his minutes, I know his game is less reliant on athleticism than others but even still, building a team around 35 year old isn't the best idea.
That is why I said it could be problem. He will not be there for to long. I have no idea what they had in mind when they signed him. But when you do that, you need to make him main point.
Tbf I think they'll get more than happy with how signing him went, they had the two star players in the world up final in Qatar both playing for a club side that Qatar owns, I reckon any sporting success pales in comparison to that
None of the midfielders Psg started with would start in any top European team. They hardly provided any support for Mbappe and Messi. And Messi has set the bar too high and people expects him to dribble past everyone and score.
Off course he has declined but Messi can still provide world class assists and occasionally score some top notch goals. He just need some class players around him. Like Bayern has. Not Vitinha, Ruiz, Soler etc.
Messi was probably shocked he had to earn a win here, probably thought UEFA would pull a FIFA and just hand it to him.
1. As far as prestige is concerned wc>>> ucl. Ronaldo had one solitary good game in 5 wc, no knock out goals or assists. Messi has an iconic tournament. Finished. Debate over.
2. Ronaldo won the champions league 3 out of 5 times primarily playing as a goalpoacher. Messi was THE stand out player in 3 out 4 he has won, not just intrrms of goals but interms of iconic performances.
3. As a footballer, Messi has always been easily the better player. For any unbiased fan who watches them regularly, this goes without saying. Its like comparing Mbappe to Haaland.
I mostly agree i was just referring to what the other side has to cling to in this repetitive discourse.