Lionel Messi - Performances

He's not going to be that mesmerising dribbling past players with ease type player any more. He'd show glimpses of it, but we have to be realistic that at his age he will start to need to change his game. He still has the creative abilities.

Think Barcelona need to adapt to a 3-5-2 with Messi behind Suarez and Neymar.
 
Barca's last couple of transfer windows have been really underwhelming.

They've invested poorly and look like needing huge investment again. LB/RB/CB/CM and they need better squad players to replace MSN.

Perhaps their period of dominance is over and they'll need a couple seasons to rebuild.
 
Barca's last couple of transfer windows have been really underwhelming.

They've invested poorly and look like needing huge investment again. LB/RB/CB/CM and they need better squad players to replace MSN.

Perhaps their period of dominance is over and they'll need a couple seasons to rebuild.

Their period of dominance is clearly over judging the last few years of CL.
 
Meh, they need to sort their midfield out and at least one good fullback and they'll be back. They've failed so hard in trying to replace Xavi/Iniesta and Alves.
 
I honestly think the hunger and motivation just isn't what it was. He's still got more ability than anyone else but that extra few percent that had him playing on a God tier previously unwitnessed has left.

It's no surprise really, he's won everything at club level and been unlucky at NATIONAL LEVEL.

The difference between him and Ronaldo is that while Messi was at the very peak of his powers, his team dominated. Ronaldo is a little bit lucky in that his team is starting to dominate as he declines and he is perhaps finding it easier to motivate himself playing for a team riding high and full of an appetite to be back on the throne of Spanish football.

I don't agree with it being a lack of hunger. When it comes to Messi and CR hunger isn't an issue. Like RM and Barcelona have swapped now, RM was unbalanced when CR first went their, which led to team under performing, now they have great balance from defense/fullbacks, brilliant midfield and strong attack, Barcelona midfield is almost nonexistent and their fullbacks just aren't good enough, an aging Alves showed them up today.
 
New Barça

3-4-1-2

--------------StegeN----------
----Marquinhos--Umtiti-Pique---
Roberto---Bakayoko---BusQuets---MendY
----------------Messi-----------------
-----------SuareZ---------------NeymaR-
 
New Barça

3-4-1-2

--------------StegeN----------
----Marquinhos--Umtiti-Pique---
Roberto---Bakayoko---BusQuets---MendY
----------------Messi-----------------
-----------SuareZ---------------NeymaR-

Thought Neymar was coming to United pal?
 
Barca's last couple of transfer windows have been really underwhelming.

They've invested poorly and look like needing huge investment again. LB/RB/CB/CM and they need better squad players to replace MSN.

Perhaps their period of dominance is over and they'll need a couple seasons to rebuild.

Their problem is same as Bayern but due to different reasons. Both are in a massive need of rebuilding the squad but Bayern didn't even try to get new players and focused on dead old ones while Barca on the other side replaced the old guns already but instead of replacing them with good top class players , they got crap ones who made the team much worse and now are in need of rebuilding the squad again and on right basis this time.

They need a whole new defense and midfield. Their CBs and FBs except Pique and Alaba won't even make their way as a starter in any other top team. Insists is aging, Rakitic is overrated and Busquets form is dropping but instead of rebuilding correctly they decided to bring Turan ( a player who doesn't suit their style of play ) and Gomez ( very slow and as Turan doesn't suit the quick passing football they want to play ).

Barca currently only got the MSN playing on their own.
 
I honestly think the hunger and motivation just isn't what it was. He's still got more ability than anyone else but that extra few percent that had him playing on a God tier previously unwitnessed has left.

It's no surprise really, he's won everything at club level and been unlucky at NATIONAL LEVEL.

The difference between him and Ronaldo is that while Messi was at the very peak of his powers, his team dominated. Ronaldo is a little bit lucky in that his team is starting to dominate as he declines and he is perhaps finding it easier to motivate himself playing for a team riding high and full of an appetite to be back on the throne of Spanish football.

You'd think that would show more in the regular games in La Liga. He has still managed to turn up there, but it's the CL ties in the last few seasons where he's been a bit lacking.

I think there's a few factors.
  • The only question mark over his club career is his few struggles against big, block defenses over 2 legs. i.e. Chelsea 08.09, 11.12; Inter Milan 09.10; Atletico 13.14, 15.16 (though he's still torched Atletico in the league)
  • The support behind him is the weakest he's ever had so far in his career. The midfield isn't as great at getting him the ball, and isn't adequate enough to protect their backline to keep the game tight enough for a bit of Messi to take them over the line. They basically need the front 3 firing on all cylinders to make up for their weakness in the middle.
  • The Alves-Messi pairing is one of the best of all time. They can't replicate that with whoever is out there, and they're much weaker out wide without him
  • Like you said he's not god anymore. But IMO not due to the lack of motivation, but the insane dribbling, agility and explosiveness has been blunted a bit. He's still better than everyone else like you say, but he's not in the form which made him the best player ever. He probably knows it as well, and its might've blunted his confidence a bit.
 
You'd think that would show more in the regular games in La Liga. He has still managed to turn up there, but it's the CL ties in the last few seasons where he's been a bit lacking.

I think there's a few factors.
  • The only question mark over his club career is his few struggles against big, block defenses over 2 legs. i.e. Chelsea 08.09, 11.12; Inter Milan 09.10; Atletico 13.14, 15.16 (though he's still torched Atletico in the league)
  • The support behind him is the weakest he's ever had so far in his career. The midfield isn't as great at getting him the ball, and isn't adequate enough to protect their backline to keep the game tight enough for a bit of Messi to take them over the line. They basically need the front 3 firing on all cylinders to make up for their weakness in the middle.
  • The Alves-Messi pairing is one of the best of all time. They can't replicate that with whoever is out there, and they're much weaker out wide without him
  • Like you said he's not god anymore. But IMO not due to the lack of motivation, but the insane dribbling, agility and explosiveness has been blunted a bit. He's still better than everyone else like you say, but he's not in the form which made him the best player ever. He probably knows it as well, and its might've blunted his confidence a bit.

Based on what exactly? On his numbers against shit teams?

In the 4 CL games against PSG and Juve he was decent in 1 or 2 games at best and utter shit in the other. His work rate is atrocious and now when his dribbling skills and explosiveness are not what they used to be he is a passenger against the best teams in the CL. It was the same last year when he was invisible against Atleti. Why make excuses for his subpar performances? The best should be the best against the best.
 
Based on what exactly? On his numbers against shit teams?

In the 4 CL games against PSG and Juve he was decent in 1 or 2 games at best and utter shit in the other. His work rate is atrocious and now when his dribbling skills and explosiveness are not what they used to be he is a passenger against the best teams in the CL. It was the same last year when he was invisible against Atleti. Why make excuses for his subpar performances? The best should be the best against the best.

I agree. While it's no doubt the big two were the obvious best he has seemed to drop off. He's still brilliant and amazing to watch but has he started to chase the game rather than lead it? It happens to all athletes and it's harder to accept when you've been watching two heavyweights that have no peers.

I think Ronaldos mindset is stronger than Messi.
 
Will be interesting what Barcelona will do now. It's obvious that Messi plays through the middle as a pure #10. But to accomodate him, either one of Neymar or Suarez would have to sacrifice for Messi, and i'm not sure they'll be happy with that going forward, especially not Neymar

Luis Enrique's solution, playing with 3 CBs, 3 CMs, with Neymar wide on the left, another player wide on the right and Messi playing behind Suarez seems to be the best way to accomodate them. But for that Barcelona would need A) three CBs very good on the ball B) two athletic CMs who can cover a lot of ground on top of being great on the ball(like Thiago for example...). This means no more Iniesta. And C) a right wing player good enough and willing to cover the whole flank
 
Will be interesting what Barcelona will do now. It's obvious that Messi plays through the middle as a pure #10. But to accomodate him, either one of Neymar or Suarez would have to sacrifice for Messi, and i'm not sure they'll be happy with that going forward, especially not Neymar

Luis Enrique's solution, playing with 3 CBs, 3 CMs, with Neymar wide on the left, another player wide on the right and Messi playing behind Suarez seems to be the best way to accomodate them. But for that Barcelona would need A) three CBs very good on the ball B) two athletic CMs who can cover a lot of ground on top of being great on the ball(like Thiago for example...). This means no more Iniesta. And C) a right wing player good enough and willing to cover the whole flank

A big problet people never want to address is his tactical naivety. He destabilises Barcelona in a 433 because he keeps coming in centrally. The channel is then occupied by the rcm and this means a lot of the time the opposition has a spare man in mf or can counter through the middle leaving Busquets to much space to defend by himself.

Yesterday he kept repeating the same thing over and over again and he had more time to intervene when he actually went to thw flank.

It's as you said, they either need to play always 343 all season to accommodate his movement and not get numerically disadvantaged or change the profile of their central axis, shifting to a more athletic player.

The fact that Kante fits this Barcelona side more than Iniesta is a damming indictment on Luis Enrique.
 
A big problet people never want to address is his tactical naivety. He destabilises Barcelona in a 433 because he keeps coming in centrally. The channel is then occupied by the rcm and this means a lot of the time the opposition has a spare man in mf or can counter through the middle leaving Busquets to much space to defend by himself.

Yesterday he kept repeating the same thing over and over again and he had more time to intervene when he actually went to thw flank.

It's as you said, they either need to play always 343 all season to accommodate his movement and not get numerically disadvantaged or change the profile of their central axis, shifting to a more athletic player.

The fact that Kante fits this Barcelona side more than Iniesta is a damming indictment on Luis Enrique.
Messi plays centrally so you can't really criticise him for playing centrally..
Barca haven't played 4-3-3 in a while.
 
I agree. While it's no doubt the big two were the obvious best he has seemed to drop off. He's still brilliant and amazing to watch but has he started to chase the game rather than lead it? It happens to all athletes and it's harder to accept when you've been watching two heavyweights that have no peers.

I think Ronaldos mindset is stronger than Messi.
Without a doubt yes. Ronaldo is always hungry while Messi can be lethargic and disconnected
 
Messi plays centrally so you can't really criticise him for playing centrally..
Barca haven't played 4-3-3 in a while.

Funny enough when he played a bit wider in the 14/15 season, especially in the big games he was able to influence matches a lot more in terms of his efficency.

I use the term 433 very loosely. When he comes central he leaves gaps. The pressing structure of Barcelona is affected. It's no coincidence that he has had no great influence on any big game in the last 2 seaosns. Only when Manchester City went 10 men down did he have an exceptional game and I would call Manchester City a big team.

He has been shackled in almost every Madrid Barcelona derby precisely because Madrid and most teams just get very compact and noone, not even Diego Armando Maradona in his prime condition can break blocks by themselves.

It works against the small teams because of the talent gap but it has failed in almost every big game since their last treble season.

I actually blame Luis Enrique because I feel he is not the right coach for the club but Messi's insistence to keep drifting centrally does not help him.
 
Last edited:
Without a doubt yes. Ronaldo is always hungry while Messi can be lethargic and disconnected

I think it seems like this way because of the styles they play. Ronaldo pretty much depends on his teammates. His touches outside of the box are very similiar to Cleverley, he just plays it back. He plays much more like Mario Jardel if you remember him. Messi on the other hand is still the heartbeat of Barca. He is double or triple teamed all the time. That can have frustrating affects, I guess.
 
Suarez isnt as good in his Liverpool days as well, still an excellent finisher but plays like a donkey for them at times. Think Dybala short-term wouldnt be bad for them. They need Thiago/Veratti as well, or Isco(gets more unlikely by every start en good performanc)/Bernardo Silva slowly replacing Iniesta. They are really unbalanced in midfield. None of their midfielders bring something extra imo.
 
Last edited:
Once upon a time we saw Messi blazing through defences.


At his best, I've never seen better. He's not the same player he use to be, but I will never forget how he made Rio and Vidic, who were probably the best centre-back duo at the time look like mugs in the '11 final. Was nutmegging anyone that came near him and was dancing his way out of every challenge, was basically unplayable. Sport isn't going to be the same when Ronaldo and him retire.
 
He's basically finished now at the top level, I reckon he will leave Barca at the end of his contract and go back to Argentina. Good player but not quite the great people made him out to be, without the flashy tricks he's no better than Frank Lampard.


Messi is still the GOAT of this generation.
 
Why do guys like him and Ronnie need to get older..

Whish I could watch their prime selves on the pitch forever - even though none of them plays for United..
 
He's basically finished now at the top level, I reckon he will leave Barca at the end of his contract and go back to Argentina. Good player but not quite the great people made him out to be, without the flashy tricks he's no better than Frank Lampard.


Messi is still the GOAT of this generation.

:lol: You nearly got me
 
A big problet people never want to address is his tactical naivety. He destabilises Barcelona in a 433 because he keeps coming in centrally. The channel is then occupied by the rcm and this means a lot of the time the opposition has a spare man in mf or can counter through the middle leaving Busquets to much space to defend by himself.

Yesterday he kept repeating the same thing over and over again and he had more time to intervene when he actually went to thw flank.

It's as you said, they either need to play always 343 all season to accommodate his movement and not get numerically disadvantaged or change the profile of their central axis, shifting to a more athletic player.

The fact that Kante fits this Barcelona side more than Iniesta is a damming indictment on Luis Enrique.

That problem was worked around every season this team had great success, first Alves had enough stamina and speed to be Messi's pair on the attack and still be on time for defense, he was a monster that basically helped Messi in the last third, Xavi in the middle and then took good care of his duties when in his own area

Also, for a great part of our best seasons (with Pep) he also had the help of Keita, a truly underrated player that was under the shadow of Iniesta and Xavi but still was key to this team success, lately when Alves was out of gas we got Rakitic and lost Xavi. Rakitic is a decent merge of Keita and Xavi, the guy covered for Alves when age caught up to him and he wasn't able to reign in the whole right side of the pitch.

Then, we have another imbalance, we used to play Alves and a more defensive minded LB like Abidal, we even went against United in the 09' final with Sylvinho and Puyol due to injuries but it worked because the team was always built with the idea of balancing our defensive lines with 3 defenders + DM covering and adjusting to the chaos the lack of Alves in some moments could create. After we signed Alba Busquets has been overworked every season.

This team has survived since Pep's departure thanks to the genious of Messi/Iniesta first and the MSN lately. But the tactical naivety is not a problem created by Messi as he's a guy that basically covers 3 spots in attack, pulls 2 or 3 defenders towards him and at least has an ok work rate most games, the problems are.

1) We lacked a defensive leftback
2) Now we also lack a rightback
2) We can't defend well with deep possession anymore, since Xavi left most of our passes happen between the CB's and Busquets because we lack quality in the midfield to take the ball away from our own goal
3) We really needed someone like Umtiti almost 3 years ago, Mascherano has done a great job as a CB considering his set of skills, but that shouldn't have been his job for so long
4) This team needs to defend counters with at least one more player, better with 2 more, you can't be consistent when you leave the duty to stop counters to 3 players (Busquets, Pique and Mascherano)
5) We need smarter players, attacking positions are overcrowded with static players (4 sometimes, the fullbacks + 2 midfielders) and that becomes a chokepoint for both Messi and Neymar, with 7 players around the area Suarez tends to disappear too.
6) We will need to address a new situation soon, Suarez enters his 30's and he won't be able to work his ass off every game, covering the workrate of almost 2 guys


Starting next season, unless we somehow manage to sign five players and replicate the roles of our earlier 433 I'd like to see something different or our key players will be held hostages to our squad limitations, the 3-5-2 has future if we manage to snatch something like

------------Ter Stegen----------
-----Defender--Pique--Umtiti----
Roberto--Rakitic--Busquets--Alba
-------------Messi-------------
------Suarez------Neymar------

And there's no negotiation with what skills that defender needs, this squad lacks height so we need another tall CB, he obviously has to be decent with the ball and have a good situational sense. That should be our starting 11 next year in our tougher/away games and then in the camp nou and against smaller teams Iniesta could take Rakitic's role with a step forward towards Messi or even subbing Messi himself.

If we're not going towards that and try to keep the 433 we're throwing another hail mary unless we sign 2 RB's, 2 CB's (or a guy who plays both RB/CB), another DM, another "Rakitic" (someone like Ander) and at least a winger. And we need to get rid of two players from Arda, Rafinha, Dennis and Gomes.


Anything different from that would be wasting Messi's last brightest years.
 
Without his speed he's still going to be at least as good as Riquelme -- probably much better.

And Riquelme was very, very good.
 
New Barça

3-4-1-2

--------------StegeN----------
----Marquinhos--Umtiti-Pique---
Roberto---Bakayoko---BusQuets---MendY
----------------Messi-----------------
-----------SuareZ---------------NeymaR-

Needs a actual right wing back. Roberto isn't a wingback, or a fullback for me.
 
The team's a mess and he seems to have lost a bit of fight. Doesn't help his midfield and defence is complete average and he has to keep dropping deep.
 
They clearly lack a lot of presence in their right flank when Messi drops to the miedfield so I'd say a very good RB should be their top priority for them regardless of the new manager.
 
That problem was worked around every season this team had great success, first Alves had enough stamina and speed to be Messi's pair on the attack and still be on time for defense, he was a monster that basically helped Messi in the last third, Xavi in the middle and then took good care of his duties when in his own area

Also, for a great part of our best seasons (with Pep) he also had the help of Keita, a truly underrated player that was under the shadow of Iniesta and Xavi but still was key to this team success, lately when Alves was out of gas we got Rakitic and lost Xavi. Rakitic is a decent merge of Keita and Xavi, the guy covered for Alves when age caught up to him and he wasn't able to reign in the whole right side of the pitch.

Then, we have another imbalance, we used to play Alves and a more defensive minded LB like Abidal, we even went against United in the 09' final with Sylvinho and Puyol due to injuries but it worked because the team was always built with the idea of balancing our defensive lines with 3 defenders + DM covering and adjusting to the chaos the lack of Alves in some moments could create. After we signed Alba Busquets has been overworked every season.

This team has survived since Pep's departure thanks to the genious of Messi/Iniesta first and the MSN lately. But the tactical naivety is not a problem created by Messi as he's a guy that basically covers 3 spots in attack, pulls 2 or 3 defenders towards him and at least has an ok work rate most games, the problems are.

1) We lacked a defensive leftback
2) Now we also lack a rightback
2) We can't defend well with deep possession anymore, since Xavi left most of our passes happen between the CB's and Busquets because we lack quality in the midfield to take the ball away from our own goal
3) We really needed someone like Umtiti almost 3 years ago, Mascherano has done a great job as a CB considering his set of skills, but that shouldn't have been his job for so long
4) This team needs to defend counters with at least one more player, better with 2 more, you can't be consistent when you leave the duty to stop counters to 3 players (Busquets, Pique and Mascherano)
5) We need smarter players, attacking positions are overcrowded with static players (4 sometimes, the fullbacks + 2 midfielders) and that becomes a chokepoint for both Messi and Neymar, with 7 players around the area Suarez tends to disappear too.
6) We will need to address a new situation soon, Suarez enters his 30's and he won't be able to work his ass off every game, covering the workrate of almost 2 guys


Starting next season, unless we somehow manage to sign five players and replicate the roles of our earlier 433 I'd like to see something different or our key players will be held hostages to our squad limitations, the 3-5-2 has future if we manage to snatch something like

------------Ter Stegen----------
-----Defender--Pique--Umtiti----
Roberto--Rakitic--Busquets--Alba
-------------Messi-------------
------Suarez------Neymar------

And there's no negotiation with what skills that defender needs, this squad lacks height so we need another tall CB, he obviously has to be decent with the ball and have a good situational sense. That should be our starting 11 next year in our tougher/away games and then in the camp nou and against smaller teams Iniesta could take Rakitic's role with a step forward towards Messi or even subbing Messi himself.

If we're not going towards that and try to keep the 433 we're throwing another hail mary unless we sign 2 RB's, 2 CB's (or a guy who plays both RB/CB), another DM, another "Rakitic" (someone like Ander) and at least a winger. And we need to get rid of two players from Arda, Rafinha, Dennis and Gomes.


Anything different from that would be wasting Messi's last brightest years.

If Messi isn't the centre he destabilises the team and it was that way under Guardiola's tenure from his second season to the last.

In 08/09 Messi stayed wide a lot more and he benefitted from Guardiola's position game being introduced and not being worked out by the opposition. He received very clean balls and was able to get into one vs one duels consistently. In his second season under Pep I recall 2 ties, the games vs Rubin Kazan and the Stuttgart away ties where Messi's proclivity for moving central killed the team. That culminated with Inter Milans defeat of Barcelona that season where Inter exploited the left flank because Pep had to put Pedro to cover for Messi on the right and left Maicon to be tracked by Keita and the 3rd goal irrc correctly came from a Maicon overlap and Keita failing to track his run. He was being asked to do the job of 2 players.

Messi apparently sent a text to Pep saying centre or he won't play because he wanted to play central.

Against elite teams him leaving gaps in the flanks has been exploited consistently and he has become relatively easier to defend and he determines both the offensive phase and defensive phase of his team.

You brought up balance. Against Manchester United in both finals Messi played as a false striker and pressed so every area of the pitch was covered and Manchester United had no particular route to exploit.

Again they survived under Tito because Tito based the team around Messi playing central and not causing a disruption in the formation and Barcelona were not numerically outnumbered in the midfield and they could still conquer the ball effectively but not as well because Messi stopped pressing as much.

People here praise Messi but fail to criticise him when he becomes a liability. When he played as a false 9 under Pep, one of the key reasons he was successful is because David Villa and Pedro spread the opposition defence horizontally so they created space for Messi to do his dribbling runs EFFECTIVELY. They never got any praise but Messi took all the plaudits but none of it mattered because they won.

Under Tata, Messi was played more as a striker and mentally checked out and in big games to accomodate Cesc into MF Iniesta was used on the left and Neymar on the right which means Messi could never perfom as optimally and the centre was clogged as we saw against Atletico vs Barcelona throughout the 13/14 season. Messi needs people wide to stretch the pitch like every single player to be optimal. He needs it for his diagonal runs to work consistently.

This is one of the main reasons Messi has been pretty subpar in almost every Madrid Barca derby since the 13/14 season. In fact, in Barcelonas best Madrid Barca derby perfomance since that season the 4-0 win when Rafa Benitez was in charge, Messi was on the bench and Barcelona used a very loose version of the positional game and immediately Messi came on, the centre of the pitch was ceded by Barcelona and Real Madrid had 2 chances to score on the break because Messi came in central, meaning that the central midfielder had to go to the channel and Madrid just ran through the centre and Messi walks all the time.

I won't put the blame solely on Messi because I think Enrique is not good enough to coach Barcelona, maybe another club but the way he plays, the Barcelona players don't suit it.

Messi's best performances came against Bayern in the last treble season when he stayed wide, against City that season where he didn't score but played one of the best individual games I have ever seen he stayed wider.

The fact that people here talk about wasting a players prime years rather than looking at it through what Barcelona needs is quite frightening. No player should be bigger than the club and people on here always bring up Ronaldo's fault myself included but noone ever blames Messi for anything. He is absolved of all blame and the team is always at fault.

Messi walks about, he doesn't cover spaces and it's too often I have seen him staying still when opposition players run past him.

If you sign a right back and Messi keeps doing what he is doing it will make minimal difference.

Also the players that Barcelona have are not poor. They are just not very well coached. The team can't build from the back properly.

If I could sign any coach for Barcelona now I would sign Maurizo Sarri as he is a Cruyffian without having played under him. His team play the closest to Lord Cruijffs ideal, more so than Guardiola's Manchester City and he is an example of a great coach.

People here cannot tell me a midfield of Hamsik, Diawarra/Jorghinho and Zielinski is more talented than Iniesta, Busquets and Rakitic. They have a template and you can see the hehe he way they drop their shoulders, the way they move to create space for each other and the wide players consistently get balls that are easier to control and shift into attack. Most importantly, they consistently use the 3rd man principle which is the basis of position play.
 
Last edited:
I thought he's been rubbish this year but apparently he's still got 29 goals in 28 league games. WTF.
 
I thought he's been rubbish this year but apparently he's still got 29 goals in 28 league games. WTF.

He was immense for the first half of the season, was single-handedly winning games for Barca when Neymar and Suarez were in shite form, he's tailed off a bit now though.