Why would a player not want to be seen as one of the best of all time? It’d be very important for Messi to win trophies and prove himself in every top game. What more does he have to prove at Barca?
Lionel Messi - Performances
- Thread starter Rado_N
- Start date
Looked his age today. But then again, so did Ronaldo in the final and look at what happened.
I really don’t get the blaming of Argentina’s team anymore. Even if we assume the rest of the tram are a bunch of 45 year old dads, all Messi had to do was score a penalty
Poor game from Messi, the others weren't much better but you expect more from him.
It's sad to watch him stroll around the park like a semiretired player. His work rate is nothing to write home about. Barca are good enough to create space for him even when he run less than any other outfield player. But in tight games it shows.
He could do better if he tried to be more like Ronaldo in the sense of trying to play closer to goal. It's not a lack of desire or capabilities but he needs to receive the ball where he is more dangerous and the team not to play so centered around him because it's not a balanced set up for them.
Personally looked like the whole game plan was bad. Its like the whole game plan was pass to Messi and pass back to him if hes doing a 1-2. Got to a point where it seemed obvious to the Iceland defense everytime Messi does a 1-2. After Pavon joined they looked like a bigger threat from the wings and the defense looked much more vulnerable. Think they should stretch the defense more in their next game.
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He looks really slow. He's still incredible and at worst the second best player in the world, but theirs an obvious physical decline.
Not the same player since the injury. A few years back he looked faster and more agile.
as proven by their excellent qualifying phase for this world cup when he didn't play: 7 points in 8 matches without him, 21 points in 10 matches with him
Lol. 2nd best player in the world. This guy stands at the top, the top of world football and takes his seat as the king. There is no one who is even worthy to kiss his feet nevermind be comparable to him
He should do to right thing and forfeit the right to take pens for club and country. He has become a joke at them
People are too harsh, one poor game and suddenly everyone talks about declining. He's slower but he's still as effective, the problem with Argentina is the whole set up around the team is wrong. He's dropping too deep and trying to do too much and the other players defer responsability to him when they have more than enough quality themselves.
They center their game completely around him when he's on the pitch then when he's gone they have no idea how to play. They probably wouldn't be better because Messi's that good but if Messi wasn't in Argentina they'd be set up a lot more like a proper team.
They might have won 21 points in 10 games with him playing in qualification but they looked like crap in those games too.
They center their game completely around him when he's on the pitch then when he's gone they have no idea how to play. They probably wouldn't be better because Messi's that good but if Messi wasn't in Argentina they'd be set up a lot more like a proper team.
They might have won 21 points in 10 games with him playing in qualification but they looked like crap in those games too.
Christ the levels of overreaction here 
Everytime Cristiano or Messi have a bad or normal game everyone comes here talking about being slow, past it, done.
He had a normal game playing for a team who barely is functional, and even if Iceland has to be praised, and I am the first to do that, if anyone deserved to win yesterday was Argentina.
This notion we are talking about players like if they are part of videogames or belong to a serie of animated cartoons where they will decide how many goals or assists they will make during a match its completely irrational.
Everytime Cristiano or Messi have a bad or normal game everyone comes here talking about being slow, past it, done.
He had a normal game playing for a team who barely is functional, and even if Iceland has to be praised, and I am the first to do that, if anyone deserved to win yesterday was Argentina.
This notion we are talking about players like if they are part of videogames or belong to a serie of animated cartoons where they will decide how many goals or assists they will make during a match its completely irrational.
They need an outlet on the wing, when Pavon came on at least he tried committing players - everyone else just gets the ball and looks for Messi as soon as they get it. With the amount of attention Messi gets in the centre there will be lots of space on the wing to exploit but even when they do get to the byline they just look for the Messi cut back when they have one of the most clinical strikers in the world in Aguero to aim at. They should let Messi draw defenders into the centre then ping it out wide and overload the flanks and drill crosses for Aguero. If they go behind in a game you don't fancy them scoring unless Messi does a bit of magic, it's literally the only plan they have.
Christ the levels of overreaction here
Everytime Cristiano or Messi have a bad or normal game everyone comes here talking about being slow, past it, done.
He had a normal game playing for a team who barely is functional, and even if Iceland has to be praised, and I am the first to do that, if anyone deserved to win yesterday was Argentina.
This notion we are talking about players like if they are part of videogames or belong to a serie of animated cartoons where they will decide how many goals or assists they will make during a match its completely irrational.
not true. iceland had the best chances
Some things to consider.
1. Sampaoli had messi operate central. He seldom moved right. Even in the second half it was the same game plan. Messi was being double-teamed and sometimes triple-teamed in the centre. Every time he received the ball there was two or three Iceland players surrounding, or in front of him. If Ronaldo operated centrally under those conditions, it would have been exactly the same, and he too would have cut a frustrated figure. Football isn't binary, there are variables and circumstances that contribute to a lack of productivity, and they aren't simply a case of "he didn't play well".
2. Sampaoli had a choice to respond, tactically, to Messi being double/triple teamed in the central area. If Messi can't find any space in between lines, then he perhaps should have pulled Messi out right, who would have taken the pressure and double/triple teaming pressing with him to the right, creating a lot more space in the centre for others to exploit. Instead of doing this and bringing Dybala, for example, on for Meza and dropping Dybala in the hole where Messi was, Sampaoli went for the predictable method of "let's just throw another striker on the pitch".
3. Iceland were an ice wall. They might have well have been the North Wall in Westeros. Big men, compact. It wasn't until Pavon came on that Argentina started looking threatening, which, brings me to Di Maria and his outstanding contribution of 0 shots, 0 goals, 0 chances created in open play, 0 dribbles. The supporting cast were absolutely horrendous at times. I'm not sure if they were being cowardly and just opted to give the ball to Messi in crowded areas because they didn't want the responsibility or whether the coaching directive itself was simply to do that. Either way, it's a coaching issue.
Comparing Messi, and indeed his game to Ronaldo's is unfair considering the circumstances are radically different. It's not enough to state that "Spain are better than Iceland, therefore......."; Spain were open, expansive, vulnerable. Regardless of their superior offensive play, they were there to be exploited. Iceland, on the other hand, were compact and physical. Just ask any world class player why they failed to produce against this type of setup, and it seldom has anything to do with personal performance issues. It's largely down to collective approach failing.
1. Sampaoli had messi operate central. He seldom moved right. Even in the second half it was the same game plan. Messi was being double-teamed and sometimes triple-teamed in the centre. Every time he received the ball there was two or three Iceland players surrounding, or in front of him. If Ronaldo operated centrally under those conditions, it would have been exactly the same, and he too would have cut a frustrated figure. Football isn't binary, there are variables and circumstances that contribute to a lack of productivity, and they aren't simply a case of "he didn't play well".
2. Sampaoli had a choice to respond, tactically, to Messi being double/triple teamed in the central area. If Messi can't find any space in between lines, then he perhaps should have pulled Messi out right, who would have taken the pressure and double/triple teaming pressing with him to the right, creating a lot more space in the centre for others to exploit. Instead of doing this and bringing Dybala, for example, on for Meza and dropping Dybala in the hole where Messi was, Sampaoli went for the predictable method of "let's just throw another striker on the pitch".
3. Iceland were an ice wall. They might have well have been the North Wall in Westeros. Big men, compact. It wasn't until Pavon came on that Argentina started looking threatening, which, brings me to Di Maria and his outstanding contribution of 0 shots, 0 goals, 0 chances created in open play, 0 dribbles. The supporting cast were absolutely horrendous at times. I'm not sure if they were being cowardly and just opted to give the ball to Messi in crowded areas because they didn't want the responsibility or whether the coaching directive itself was simply to do that. Either way, it's a coaching issue.
Comparing Messi, and indeed his game to Ronaldo's is unfair considering the circumstances are radically different. It's not enough to state that "Spain are better than Iceland, therefore......."; Spain were open, expansive, vulnerable. Regardless of their superior offensive play, they were there to be exploited. Iceland, on the other hand, were compact and physical. Just ask any world class player why they failed to produce against this type of setup, and it seldom has anything to do with personal performance issues. It's largely down to collective approach failing.
Of course they hadn't.
Why does he run so little these days? With Barca I thought he was saving himself for the WC but here we are and he's running less than goal keepers
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/jun/20/lionel-messi-sun-king-argentina-blind-world-cup
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/jun/20/lionel-messi-sun-king-argentina-blind-world-cup
To be fresh when he gets the ball so he's able to make better decisions and go past defenders more easily.
He's been the player with less km for Barcelona in the last ~8 years, and in games like the last one vs Iceland he exaggerates that trait even more.
When he's playing against teams sitting deep, that put 2 or even 3 physical players jailing him in front of the area he has 3 options. First one is entering a marathon and fighting for position against multiple stronger and more durable players (he'll lose that battle), second one is consistently beating 2/3 defenders but even when he manages to do that, chances are an extra defender will show up and steal the ball, and third, what he does most of the time, he just lures away his marker, walking with them the the opposite direction of the play, to beat them in sort spurs when he thinks he should enter the play.
That's why the articles says "And despite not running much, he still has more runs into the attacking third than anyone else". He just picks his battles and brings defenders to his terrain, if he tried to push or outrun them (like he did earlier in his career) he'd end up done in 60 minutes, or injured.
I don't really understand why people are bringing this up now. Messi has been playing like this since Guardiola arrived and has had his best seasons with this type of movement. The only explanation is that those who criticize him for it never really watched him play or paid attention to it. I mean, it is not like he just stands still and doesn't get the ball or anything like that. He's involved in more or less every attack, often the one who plays the opening pass or beats one or two players to create superiority. This is also reflected in the fast runs statistics you mentioned.
Under Pep, he waited for the forwards to make the runs behind the line in order to bound the center backs so that he can receive the ball between the lines and turn to goal. The only difference to the Guardiola-Barca is that he drops deeper now since he lacks the service of a good midfield in both his teams. For Argentina, it's always been like that but not for Barca. He plays a completely different role now and it is hard to categorize him as a striker nowadays since he usually has so many players ahead of him when he receives the ball. I mean, just watch his highlight video against Iceland.
What's also funny: People say that he doesn't function without Xavi and Iniesta and that it was their brillant midfield play that made him so good. Yet they completely discredit that he more or less does their job nowadays with every transition to the attacking game running through him. It is amazing that he still manages to get at the end of so many plays and thus scores as much as he does. If Xavi and Iniesta were so important (which they obviously were, no question), why don't the people bringing this up also acknowledge how many of their responsibilities Messi overtakes for Argentina and the recent Barcelona?
He's had one bad game jesus christ .. Obviously he's not at the same level as he was in the likes of 2012, that level will never be reached again by anyone in my opinion. This is his level at the moment though, all from this season..
.. Obviously he's not at the same level as he was in the likes of 2012, that level will never be reached again by anyone in my opinion. This is his level at the moment though, all from this season..Exactly. I just made an in-depth post about this in the R v M thread.
Argentina is painfully predictable. Portugal is not. The reliance on Messi makes it easier to defend against Argentina. Whereas, the opposite is true for Portugal. Portugal is reliant on Ronaldo to finish chances, not make them, but in the process of being that threat to finish, he creates space for the rest of his teams attackers because you can't just not watch Ronaldo closely.
If people can't understand this nuance, then I'd question their understanding of tactics and strategy, and there ability to have a thoughtful opinion on the two players.
Basically he's a CM but runs less than a GK (according to stats), a CM without off-the-ball movements, esp. when opp. has the ball, needs a new term, false CM perhaps?
To reserve more energy for knockout games, where he fails to turn up these days?
The yaya role
He did fantastic against Chelsea
Ronaldo completely disappeared from the semi finals onward
He's had one bad game jesus christ
This. I know you-know-who had a good start to the World Cup, but the way half the Caf' is talking, Messi is not even in the top 20 ever discussion and single handedly led Argentina to a 10-0 crushing defeat against Iceland. It just goes to show how a good performance by another player means another player receives a massive negative response.
He's in for a tough game today vs Croatia. It'll be interesting to see whether he rises to the occasion. We're due a left foot peach from just outside the box.
Well we all know the only knockout match Messi did great this year was against Chelsea, whereas Ronaldo did great in about every CL games except semi and final this year.
Perhaps you should wait a few more years first before saying something like this, you know, when everyone’s memory not as fresh.
Really hope he can put in a big performance today.
Also against the same Chelsea side who were so poor in the league itself at that point of time.
Tell that to Morocco.
He did have a great game against Spain (though I believe the penalty and free kick was soft)
Ronaldo has to play closer to goal because that’s all he can do. It would be a waste of Messi’s skill set to have play off the ball as a striker.
A waste for whom? It would actually be good for the team and give space for Dybala to play... is the goal of the tournament for Messi to show off his whole skillset or for him to be adaptable enough to make the team better?
The funny thing is, during his career Messi played brillantly in different setups in different positions and with many different partners. When Eto'o and Ibrahimovic were there, Messi played on the right wing, afterwards he switched to the false nine. When Neymar and Suarez were brought in, he switched back to the right and after the former left played as a number 10 (like he always did for Argentina) or a second striker (only under Valverde in some instances).
It is Dybala who is too limited to his favoured position as a second striker. How exactly would you want to fit them into one line up? Dybala can't play on the left or as a lone striker/false nine. This means you can't play Messi on the right wing because it would solve no problem (Dybala would still have no place in the team). Playing Messi as a 10 as against Iceland requires Dybala to play on the right where someone like Meza gets picked ahead of him (is this Messi's fault, too?). Playing both as strikers is obviously not gonna work and would also bench Aguero and Higuain which again wouldn't get the best out of the squad. Messi out wide in a 4-4-2 would be madness and Argentina would sacrifice their best player to play a weaker version of him.
The problem is that Dybala currently only has one position which exists in very few formations (the second striker in a 3-5-2/4-4-2 or any other system with two up front). Of course he could also play Messi's current role but the former is clearly ahead of him performance-wise. It would be up to Dybala to adapt, yet he doesn't do it. So Messi's to blame for it? Or just maybe it is Dybala's fault for not winning a starting spot against Meza and Di Maria in a position in which he would clearly have the skills to shine at.
It would be perfect if Dybala was able to play on the right wing (at least as long as Messi is still playing) or in a midfield three in an Iniesta-type role. He has anything for it but doesn't do it. But obviously Messi is to blame because he is "incompatible" with him (despite working very successfully with players like Henry, Eto'o, Iniesta, Sanchez, David Villa, Pedro, Neymar, Suarez, Coutinho and Dembele as his attacking partners).
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You don’t move Messi up and remove his playmaking ability to give space to Dybala... that’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard.
Silent domination.
I'm not blaming Messi more than Dybala for them not being able to adapt to eachother and make it work, they're both as guilty as eachother. Messi is Messi though, the expectations aren't the same.
It's true Messi has played on the right, but he simply does not do it anymore and it was one of the biggest problems for Barcelona during 2016/17 under Enrique too, Neymar was on the left, Suarez was in the middle and Messi on the right but Messi ended up coming inside and they didn't have a full back that could do the whole right flank which ended up making them way too narrow.
I agree with you that ideally it would be Dybala who would be able to adapt and play out wide, but he can't so wouldn't the best for the team be for Messi to adapt while Dybala played in his best position? Dybala and Higuain made a great pairing for Juve. I'd understand defending the current system with Dybala on the bench if it had been working but it obviously hasn't. You can't look bad offensively and then leave Paolo Dybala on the bench, that's just stupid.
I have been saying this for ages too, they had more than enough time to work on it.
Why not? Just because Messi is the best player shouldn't mean it's the team that has to adapt to him. He has to adapt to the team he's in, having that versatility is important and Messi's current role for Argentina is not what's best for the team. It makes them completely one dimensional. That will be true even if he has great games and they win games like he's more than capable of doing.
Icardi
Pavon, dybala, messi
That's probably their best line up and could easily win the world cup but messi would never accept taking a lesser role.
The whole team is geared to pass to Messi.
Pavon, dybala, messi
That's probably their best line up and could easily win the world cup but messi would never accept taking a lesser role.
The whole team is geared to pass to Messi.