LGBT issues in Football

decorativeed said:
I agree with that too. We just disagree on whether discrimination neccessatates acting on your beliefs or just believing your beliefs.
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I see what you mean, it obviously wouldn't be a pleasant feeling if you knew someone disagreed with your lifestyle and were being judged on it, but here is where I think it important, just having an opposite view doesn't mean you are or will judge them because it, I think most sound of mind people would agree that some aspects of life impact some more than others in positive ways and generally we are happy for them, that the life they live makes them happy.

So long as you don't cause harm or distress to others, you should be able to live your life how you feel and most people would want that for everyone.
 
Gary_Walsh_Nou_Camp_Hell said:
Being Vegan is a choice. Being gay isn't.

Also research subconscious bias.

Also using religion in 2021 as a justification to hold a negative view on other people is really weak. But if you want to go the religious 'sin' route - only God can judge not you, that's what the bible says - and the bible doesn't actually say shit about homosexuality.
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I onviously know what unconscious bias is, and I am a lifelong atheist. Don't know why you're dragging religion into it.

I just don't agree withe the use of the word discrimination for a (private) thought/opinion. Discrimination entails the act of treating others differently.
 
Imagine telling someone they live a life full of sin, simply because they love who they love, all while believing that that’s completely ok and not an act of discrimination. :lol:
 
decorativeed said:
Do you think less of people who eat meat?

Like if you met someone you fancied, but they wanted to eat meat at a restaurant on a date with you, would you think twice?
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It's complicated. I do think eating meat is dusgusting and profoundly immoral. But I think the same about racism, yet I still love my mom, who often makes casual racist remarks. And I don't think less of her because of it.
 
Botim said:
It's complicated. I do think eating meat is dusgusting and profoundly immoral. But I think the same about racism, yet I still love my mom, who often makes casual racist remarks. And I don't think less of her because of it.
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I swear people in these issues confuse me sometimes. You'll see non religious people telling people to keep religion to themselves and not force it on anyone, then when someone is keeping their religion to themselves and not doing anything to someone outside, they are still complaining that you aren't adopting our opinion on this matter and therefore you're a horrible person.
 
HTG said:
Imagine telling someone they live a life full of sin, simply because they love who they love, all while believing that that’s completely ok and not an act of discrimination. :lol:
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Why is that such a problem? As someone who's not religious, "you live in sin" has no meaning to me.

If they say: "you're disgusting and i don't want you in my store," that's a completely different story off course
 
HTG said:
Imagine telling someone they live a life full of sin, simply because they love who they love, all while believing that that’s completely ok and not an act of discrimination. :lol:
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As a Muslim, does that mean I can say Christians are discriminating against me because they think I live in sin for praying to Allah and not Jesus?

Similarly for Christians saying they are discriminated by Muslims etc etc.
 
Botim said:
Why is that such a problem? As someone who's not religious, "you live in sin" has no meaning to me.

If they say: "you're disgusting and i don't want you in my store," that's a completely different story off course
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It’s basically the same thing. Just said in a nicer way.
„No, I don’t think you should be discriminated against. That would be mean. But let me tell you something: you’re going to burn in hell for all eternity for your sinful life.“
That’s what this shit boils down to. No thanks. People like that aren’t allies and we don’t need their „Support“. They are the same like other homophobic people. They are just nicer about it.

And it doesn’t carry much meaning for me either. But it does for those believing and saying these things. That’s the issue. Saying shit like that is in no way accepting or tolerant. It’s just oldfashioned homophobia.
 
What letters next to add? Pick one out of the hat and make up a new term for it.
 
antk said:
Q stands for Queer, and + is indicative of a much larger inclusivity for people that do not align with the first five words. Another common term nowadays is LGBTQIA+, I meaning Intersex and A Asexual.
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How long until the whole alphabet gets a workout ? I reckon that's deep down the actual goal behind all this.
 
HTG said:
It’s basically the same thing. Just said in a nicer way.
„No, I don’t think you should be discriminated against. That would be mean. But let me tell you something: you’re going to burn in hell for all eternity for your sinful life.“
That’s what this shit boils down to. No thanks. People like that aren’t allies and we don’t need their „Support“. They are the same like other homophobic people. They are just nicer about it.

And it doesn’t carry much meaning for me either. But it does for those believing and saying these things. That’s the issue. Saying shit like that is in no way accepting or tolerant. It’s just oldfashioned homophobia.
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Yeah anyone who dares disagree with the woke left is either racist or homophobic. Gets tiring after a while.
 
11101 said:
I do sort of understand UEFAs position in not getting involved in anything with political undertones.
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I'm trying to stay out of these discussions because you have to thread so carefully to not offend people.

But one thing i struggle to understand, what is the difference between racism and homophobia?
Why is supporting LBQT different from kicking racism out? Can someone please explain?
How can one be political but the other one not?

I'm a boring straight white man, so i guess that's probably what makes it hard for me to understand.

Another thing i have noticed, on the United facebook group, is that the people who are being hateful towards the rainbow flag are usually of darker skin colour, typhically with African or Arab looking names.
How can they have so much hate towards another minority, and saying "keep politics out of football", when the kick racism out of football campaign is literally the same, but helping them?


That is imho why we also need to have the religion discussion in here too - saw someone say "this is not the place to discuss this" about a religion comment. It is. It is connected.
 
If you want to discuss religion please take it to the CE. This thread is for LBGT+ issues in football.
 
Grylte said:
I'm trying to stay out of these discussions because you have to thread so carefully to not offend people.

But one thing i struggle to understand, what is the difference between racism and homophobia?
Why is supporting LBQT different from kicking racism out? Can someone please explain?
How can one be political but the other one not?

I'm a boring straight white man, so i guess that's probably what makes it hard for me to understand.

Another thing i have noticed, on the United facebook group, is that the people who are being hateful towards the rainbow flag are usually of darker skin colour, typhically with African or Arab looking names.
How can they have so much hate towards another minority, and saying "keep politics out of football", when the kick racism out of football campaign is literally the same, but helping them?


That is imho why we also need to have the religion discussion in here too - saw someone say "this is not the place to discuss this" about a religion comment. It is. It is connected.
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It’s most definitely connected.
 
Wilbursaurus said:
How long until the whole alphabet gets a workout ? I reckon that's deep down the actual goal behind all this.
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And queer should be a perfect umbrella term for all but anyone who’s not incuded in LGBTQQIP2SAA+ feels super offended so they keed adding new letters.
 
Wilbursaurus said:
What letters next to add? Pick one out of the hat and make up a new term for it.
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Wilbursaurus said:
How long until the whole alphabet gets a workout ? I reckon that's deep down the actual goal behind all this.
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Why are you riled up about how people choose to identify? Words and letters are added to the acronym because most people in this spectrum are facing similar issues (through societal or physical violence), even if the specifics can vary. They're allying around the same banner in order to stand collectively for their rights.

I'm pretty sure you're thinking there isn't much difference between an homosexual and a bisexual person, not enough to warrant acknowledging each of them individually anyway, but basic etymology would prove you wrong. And if you aren't thinking that, I don't get your posts at all.
 
Jippy said:
If you want to discuss religion please take it to the CE. This thread is for LBGT+ issues in football.
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It's clearly connected. As i wrote in my previous post.
 
Grylte said:
I'm trying to stay out of these discussions because you have to thread so carefully to not offend people.

But one thing i struggle to understand, what is the difference between racism and homophobia?
Why is supporting LBQT different from kicking racism out? Can someone please explain?
How can one be political but the other one not?

I'm a boring straight white man, so i guess that's probably what makes it hard for me to understand.

Another thing i have noticed, on the United facebook group, is that the people who are being hateful towards the rainbow flag are usually of darker skin colour, typhically with African or Arab looking names.
How can they have so much hate towards another minority, and saying "keep politics out of football", when the kick racism out of football campaign is literally the same, but helping them?


That is imho why we also need to have the religion discussion in here too - saw someone say "this is not the place to discuss this" about a religion comment. It is. It is connected.
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All campaigns and protests for equality are political - UEFA can on one hold promote BLM and on the other hand discriminate against LGBTQ equality.

Yes there's incredible Homophobia in some cultures - I find it strange when minority groups in the UK will be openly homophobic and disciminatory while expecting equality and rights for their own minority.

I've seen plenty of idiotic comments from African and Asian people on Twitter saying Hungary and Poland are great - with no understanding that Fascists in those countries are white supremicist and despise them too.

Homosexuality has existed as long as Humans have, long pre-dating religions and societal prejustice. In the Geek civilisations that birthed the modern world, and the Roman Empire homosexuality was normal. Men would have sex with men casually and their wife for reproduction.

It's a shame that so many people want to waste their life getting wound up about others people's existence. I mean it's idiotic and anyone getting angry about homosexuality really needs to look within themselves and truly question why that is.
 
Grylte said:
It's clearly connected. As i wrote in my previous post.
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There are separate issues imo- how clubs, and Fifa, approach the issue, then the root causes of homophobia, which religion is a strand thereof. The FF is not really the place for a heavy discussion on Islamic theological doctrine on homosexuality.
 
Wilbursaurus said:
What letters next to add? Pick one out of the hat and make up a new term for it.
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Wilbursaurus said:
How long until the whole alphabet gets a workout ? I reckon that's deep down the actual goal behind all this.
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Wilbursaurus said:
Yeah anyone who dares disagree with the woke left is either racist or homophobic. Gets tiring after a while.
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Well, if you're going to reduce a marginalised community's initialism down to no more than 'giving the whole alphabet a workout' and post nothing but antagonistic trolls in a thread about LGBT issues in football, it gives people a sense that you may just be a tad homophobic.
 
Botim said:
It's complicated. I do think eating meat is dusgusting and profoundly immoral. But I think the same about racism, yet I still love my mom, who often makes casual racist remarks. And I don't think less of her because of it.
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I feel very similarly. You're right, it's complicated.

I think in this case, UEFA - in pretending to be politically neutral - are actually enabling politicians to persecute people because of their sexuality. They don't need to be neutral on this.
 
hasanejaz88 said:
I swear people in these issues confuse me sometimes. You'll see non religious people telling people to keep religion to themselves and not force it on anyone, then when someone is keeping their religion to themselves and not doing anything to someone outside, they are still complaining that you aren't adopting our opinion on this matter and therefore you're a horrible person.
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Nobody has said that anyone on this thread is a horrible person because of their religion. But religions are almost all built on the premise of their adherants being the 'chosen ones' and everyone else being lesser beings or living in sin. They are intrinsically discriminatory in nature.
 
decorativeed said:
Nobody has said that anyone on this thread is a horrible person because of their religion. But religions are almost all built on the premise of their adherants being the 'chosen ones' and everyone else being lesser beings or living in sin. They are intrinsically discriminatory in nature.
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But then, as I asked, can I, as a Muslim, legitimately say that I'm being discriminated against because Christians think I'll go to hell? Even if none have done anything against me or acted differently with me.

I'm all for gay people having all the rights of other people, but if someone who is religious thinks to himself or herself that what they do is wrong, but won't do anything to deny them their rights, then they aren't discriminatory or evil in any sense.

People need to realize there will be different opinions and you need to respect others holding that opinion, if it doesn't treat you any differently.
 
decorativeed said:
I agree with a lot of what you're saying, so please don't consider this a personal attack or even an attack on religion, but to consider someone's lifestyle as sinful, and say as much, is to discriminate. You don't have to call someone a name or use a slur, or go to the extremes of attending anti-gay rallies or committing a hate crime to discriminate.
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Jeez it's his fecking right to have an opinion as long as he doesn't treat them differently. This place sometimes...
 
Absolute peak rainbow-washing to go on about "respecting the rainbow" and literally not even mention who or what it represents. What a shambles.
 
If someone thought I was going to burn in hell for eternity because of my actions but didn't even say "hey Duffer, you might wanna stop that", they either don't really believe it or don't care if I go to hell.

I mean, I don't believe in an afterlife but only one religious person I've ever met (and I've met a fair few that I would consider "deeply religious") has ever tried to "save my soul" by converting me. Did the others not give a shit? Was the potential awkwardness of the conversation not worth saving my soul? :(
 
antk said:
Q stands for Queer, and + is indicative of a much larger inclusivity for people that do not align with the first five words. Another common term nowadays is LGBTQIA+, I meaning Intersex and A Asexual.
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Isn’t the word “queer” just a slang term for gay? Why do they need to add that on the end if it’s already covered in the “LG” part which stands for Gay and Lesbian does it not?
 
antk said:
Q stands for Queer, and + is indicative of a much larger inclusivity for people that do not align with the first five words. Another common term nowadays is LGBTQIA+, I meaning Intersex and A Asexual.
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As the famous video said:

"Where is the H?!"

Just joking all love and peace.
 
ShinjiNinja26 said:
Isn’t the word “queer” just a slang term for gay? Why do they need to add that on the end if it’s already covered in the “LG” part which stands for Gay and Lesbian does it not?
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“Queer is a word that describes sexual and gender identities other than straight and cisgender. Lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender people may all identify with the word queer.”
 
hasanejaz88 said:
But then, as I asked, can I, as a Muslim, legitimately say that I'm being discriminated against because Christians think I'll go to hell? Even if none have done anything against me or acted differently with me.

I'm all for gay people having all the rights of other people, but if someone who is religious thinks to himself or herself that what they do is wrong, but won't do anything to deny them their rights, then they aren't discriminatory or evil in any sense.

People need to realize there will be different opinions and you need to respect others holding that opinion, if it doesn't treat you any differently.
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Well if you read and understood my previous post, yes you can. I've not said it's evil, or that it's as bad as putting your prejudice into action, but it is obviously discriminatory to think and say that you believe in the distinction between the Christians and the Philistine or the Muslim and the Kafir, the saved and the damned, the believer and the non-believer.

I realise there are different opinions, and there are otherwise decent people who believe in this stuff, but I do not believe in or respect the idea that there are the just and the unjust or that some people are a God's chosen few and the rest are in the wrong.
 
Tomuś said:
Jeez it's his fecking right to have an opinion as long as he doesn't treat them differently. This place sometimes...
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When did I say it's not? The trouble with this place is it's got people incapable of understanding nuance, debating ideas in good faith, and who want to accuse others of saying things they haven't actually said.
 
decorativeed said:
When did I say it's not? The trouble with this place is it's got people incapable of understanding nuance, debating ideas in good faith, and who want to accuse others of saying things they haven't actually said.
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The last bit is spot on. Jumping to the conclusions about someone's political preferences because of one issue. People should realise some of us don't care about politics because they know it's all bollocks. Worked in media for a bit and I've seen right and left go together drinking after a heated debate laughing their arses off at the poor viewers.
 
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