LGBT issues in Football

[Penna]

I believe in freedom 100%. Not only the freedom to BE who you are, but also, just as importantly, the freedom to express yourself, and your beliefs. Unfortunately, the latter seems to be dying and has been for a long time. I guess me and you most likely have different ideas on what progression means.

Freedom to express yourself isn't an absolute and never has been, at least in the UK. For example, you can't go around naked in public because it offends public decency. Your freedom to express yourself ends when it affects other people in a negative way. Some of that is laid down in law, other things become cultural norms.

I'm in my 60s and I can recall so many instances of things which were absolutely acceptable when I was a young person that would be considered disgraceful now, many of them related to prejudice against minority groups. You're not progressive because you hang onto things which now cause offence, even if not everyone finds those things offensive.

Your posts on here are making you sound like an old spluttering gammon, not a progressive free-thinker.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

You can't get away with, well if they stop this - what's next?

Exactly - because "this" more often than not is something genuinely racist, homophobic, sexist...or what have you.

Like this particular example - there is no possible excuse for it. If you think it's just "banter", you aren't paying attention to the historical context. And if you're an intelligent person with good intentions who thought it was just "banter", you should accept you were wrong about it - and move on.

And I repeat that this has nothing to do with "wokeness". Or perhaps, it shouldn't have anything to do with it.

 

[NewGlory]

We're talking football fans here, common sense goes out of the window when they get to the ground or enter an online forum!

This is an important point.

Let's say Team X supporters (2,000 out of 50,000 attendees) are shouting something offensive. What exactly is the club supposed to do? How can you punish the club and the rest of 48,000 supporters for the action of 2,000 idiots? The club can and should invest in education and tolerance and make their stance clear, but how are they expected to police a large crowd? Are they supposed to personally identify every of the 2,000 chanters and lifetime-ban them? Or is it OK to ban the rest of 48,000 and the club in the hopes that it will make 2,000 original assholes stop?

More fundamentally, is there an expectation of "polite" behavior at large-crowd events, such as sporting ground? Or is the bar at the minimum of "it should be safe"?

For full disclosure, I fecking hate any kind of offensive slurs (homophobic, racial etc.), do NOT use them with my buddies jokingly or anywhere, don't think it is ok and will call out somebody I know if they try it with me, but I am confused where did this "footballers should play in a friendly atmosphere when they go to a rival ground" expectation come from? If it is not slurs, it can be anything else but certain group of opposition supporters will try to abuse rival's players. Let's say we succeed in banning all category-based slurs, and fans chant something along the lines "your penis is tiny, and your brains are even smaller", then what? Is thatstressing out that player less? Will we have rules where penis and IQ of players are measured so we can make sure they are not offended unnecessarily? Where do you draw the line? And again to be clear - I am not saying it should be normalized, but how far do you take policing and punishing of whom is OK for the sins of some fans?

 

[Member 125398]

What needs explaining? Why calling someone a gay prostitute is homophobic and offensive or what "Rentboy" means? (It means gay male prostitute).

I'm not a fan of what I consider to be extremist and misguided LGBTQ, Feminist and BLM movements in the West, but I'd imagine that this has something to do with the playing up of derogatory stereotypes that are generally no longer true, and hence harmful to a community that have to put up with it.

As previously mentioned, a bit like Park requesting us fans to stop singing his song about dogs. There was new-found awareness that most East Asians don't actually eat dogs and even consider it taboo/offensive.

I'd like to think that most of us would want to live in a respectful, tolerant and pragmatic society.

That very clearly explains it and is more productive than just saying it's offensive imo.

 

[duffer]

That very clearly explains it and is more productive than just saying it's offensive imo.

I guess it's kinda difficult for me to grasp that people don't already know what "rentboy" means and why it's offensive. I've had it shouted at me for many decades and a quick check shows my first moan about it on this very website was in 2005!

 

[Red in STL]

This is an important point.

Let's say Team X supporters (2,000 out of 50,000 attendees) are shouting something offensive. What exactly is the club supposed to do? How can you punish the club and the rest of 48,000 supporters for the action of 2,000 idiots? The club can and should invest in education and tolerance and make their stance clear, but how are they expected to police a large crowd? Are they supposed to personally identify every of the 2,000 chanters and lifetime-ban them? Or is it OK to ban the rest of 48,000 and the club in the hopes that it will make 2,000 original assholes stop?

More fundamentally, is there an expectation of "polite" behavior at large-crowd events, such as sporting ground? Or is the bar at the minimum of "it should be safe"?

For full disclosure, I fecking hate any kind of offensive slurs (homophobic, racial etc.), do NOT use them with my buddies jokingly or anywhere, don't think it is ok and will call out somebody I know if they try it with me, but I am confused where did this "footballers should play in a friendly atmosphere when they go to a rival ground" expectation come from? If it is not slurs, it can be anything else but certain group of opposition supporters will try to abuse rival's players. Let's say we succeed in banning all category-based slurs, and fans chant something along the lines "your penis is tiny, and your brains are even smaller", then what? Is thatstressing out that player less? Will we have rules where penis and IQ of players are measured so we can make sure they are not offended unnecessarily? Where do you draw the line? And again to be clear - I am not saying it should be normalized, but how far do you take policing and punishing of whom is OK for the sins of some fans?

When poor Colin found his wife Tina in a state of undress with goalkeeping legend Peter Shilton in a quiet country lane, he probably didn't know whether to ask for his autograph or smack him one. Shilts did not stick around to find out: driving hurriedly off - straight into a lamppost.

Shilton was arrested for drink-driving and was eventually fined £350 and banned from driving for 15 months. In court he admitted to 'taking a lady for a meal' - which is certainly one way of putting things.

Can't speak for elsewhere but us United fans never let him forget it - every time he played against us Cor-Tina was heard around the ground

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

Heard it all before have you? That's too bad... well, as long as this current trend of finding new things to be offended by every week continues, and trying to force people into thinking the same way (while dressing it up as "being progressive"), people like myself will continue to push back against it, and you're gonna keep hearing it, I'm afraid. We're not just gonna eventually go quiet and submit. And... It's not meant to be 'original', I'm not telling a joke. I'm talking about a serious matter. But the fact that you've "heard it all before" as you claim, and refuse to acknowledge what is actually going on, tells me it's a waste of time trying to explain it to you... you're too far gone.

You're not some brave warrior, fighting against some massive evil. You just don't like change

 

[Red in STL]

You're not some brave warrior, fighting against some massive evil. You just don't like change

To be fair there are plenty of take offence at anything people out there - there are way too many of them

 

[padr81]

I can't believe this is still ongoing. Its insulting on so many levels.

Making fun of ones sexuality - offensive and should be a remnant of the past but the mental gymnastics to defend said chant despite that is crazy.
Trying to explain it away as "Its not making fun of sexuality but making fun of people being so poor they had to rent themselves out to be abused just to not starve" as if its somehow better? Ffs... its 2022, yes the world can be a little overly pc by times, but this is absolutely not one of those times.

Your gay and sell yourself so you can eat - Perfectly fine really.

 

[padr81]

Andrew, is that really you?

Gave Tate some credit, he's not that stupid.

 

[NotThatSoph]

To be fair there are plenty of take offence at anything people out there - there are way too many of them

That's true, plenty of people do take offence to people finding a homophobic chant homophobic.

 

[Tarrou]

Sad to see individuals here who say that "most people are just LOOKING to be offended" alongside "I don't mean actual LGBT folk"

Voices like this just diminish folk who ARE offended whether or not they are LGBT.

Said individual has been blocked and we move on but that's sadly what someone who receives such hatred has to put up with. The old bully tactic "I was just messing around" and the injured party is just supposed to apologise to the bully for the misunderstanding and "move on" but after a long time of abuse (and especially on a bloody football forum) I have to make a personal stand.

Sorry, rant over.

great post

mods do your job and promote this poster

 

[Tarrou]

Your posts on here are making you sound like an old spluttering gammon, not a progressive free-thinker.

savage

 

[Erebus]

I've resisted commenting on this for a while, but I do think there are people who, for whatever reason, simply don't understand just how offensive this is to LGBTQ+ people like myself. The fact is that 'it's just banter' simply doesn't cut it. It's my reality that having received homophobic abuse from a player at a non-league ground I volunteered at I'll no longer go there, because I simply don't feel safe anymore. I'm physically afraid of what the 'banter' might escalate to - and for good reason. Sadly the prelude to many physical attacks on gay people is banter, especially when challenged. I was abused by one player but in front of the whole team, who thought it was funny and laughed. Great banter for them, terrifying for me. In a recent survey of LGBTQ+ people by Stonewall, 82% of the community said they'd witnessed homophobia in sport, and a shocking 43% of LGBTQ+ people felt sporting events weren't welcoming to them. Those stats alone should make people think seriously about the issues.

 

[Red in STL]

Making fun of ones sexuality - offensive and should be a remnant of the past but the mental gymnastics to defend said chant despite that is crazy

I don't disagree but many of these chants originate in the past, the Chelsea Rent Boys for example is from the 60's, whilst distasteful, it's also a sort of stereotypical tradition the football fans adhere to, it's hard to eliminate it completely, if We played Watford and Elton John turned up I know eactly what you'd hear and I suspect so does he

 

[SilentWitness]

I don't disagree but many of these chants originate in the past, the Chelsea Rent Boys for example is from the 60's, whilst distasteful, it's also a sort of stereotypical tradition the football fans adhere to, it's hard to eliminate it completely, if We played Watford and Elton John turned up I know eactly what you'd hear and I suspect so does he

It wouldn't be hard if the people at the top were more serious about stamping it out.

 

[padr81]

I don't disagree but many of these chants originate in the past, the Chelsea Rent Boys for example is from the 60's, whilst distasteful, it's also a sort of stereotypical tradition the football fans adhere to, it's hard to eliminate it completely, if We played Watford and Elton John turned up I know eactly what you'd hear and I suspect so does he

While I get that and understand, if the leagues/Fifa really wanted to cut it out they could. Simple as "Homophobic singing, racist chanting, Hillsbrough singing, Aeroplane gestures to United = 1 game behind closed doors", 2nd offence 3 games, 3rd offence 3 points. Of course 2 or 3 people can just be suspended for life but large numbers like we heard recently deserve punishments like that.

 

[McGrathsipan]

It wouldn't be hard if the people at the top were more serious about stamping it out.

How?

 

[McGrathsipan]

While I get that and understand, if the leagues/Fifa really wanted to cut it out they could. Simple as "Homophobic singing, racist chanting, Hillsbrough singing, Aeroplane gestures to United = 1 game behind closed doors", 2nd offence 3 games, 3rd offence 3 points. Of course 2 or 3 people can just be suspended for life but large numbers like we heard recently deserve punishments like that.

so punish thousands of genuine fans or the players because of a few arseholes!
Thats not the answer

 

[SilentWitness]

so punish thousands of genuine fans or the players because of a few arseholes!
Thats not the answer

Why not? I care more about homophobia and racism being stamped out of football than watching a football game.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

Progress has been made but still a way to go

 

[Red in STL]

While I get that and understand if the leagues/Fifa really wanted to cut it out they could. Simple as "Homophobic singing, racist chanting, Hillsbrough singing, Aeroplane gestures to United = 1 game behind closed doors", 2nd offence 3 games, 3rd offence 3 points. Of course 2 or 3 people can just be suspended for life but large numbers like we heard recently.

Behind closed doors has been done before for hooligans and didn't really work, United had behind the goal in the Stretford End closed off for a period in the 70's and that didn't work that well either - in today's world where every game is televised I'm not sure how effective that would be either

3 points - hits the team rather than the guilty people, (and the majority of fans) you just know that some fans would try and wind up the opposition fans in to doing something moronic, you could end up having the most successful teams being the ones with the least number of idiots and morons supporting them

The only way I can see these issues being resolved is to have big brother watching the crowd intently and giving automatic life bans to the guilty parties

 

[Mr Pigeon]

This routine people like you and your carbon copies always do is so strange.

You're going on and on about how you're attacked. Even better, you're preempting the attacks by going on and on about how your prosecution is coming. Any minute now.

Your victim complex and persecution fetish are both astronomical, yet you have this hangup on other people being "offended". People dislike a homophobic chant, they'd prefer it if people stopped singing it. That's it. Perfectly simple, perfectly calm. You're the one who seem to be losing it.

You're not going to "go quiet and submit", people are forcing you to think in certain ways? Listen to yourself, Jesus Christ hanging on your cross over here.

I swear, I see more people complaining about "wokeness" than there are actual acts of wokeness going on.

 

[McGrathsipan]

Why not? I care more about homophobia and racism being stamped out of football than watching a football game.

The money men dont.

Every match I have ever been to has had certain pockets of fans being vile. I once had an Everton fan singing in my face about United players lying in the snow. United fans in the pubs around the ground singing songs about Wenger being a Peado etc. Vile stuff.

The only way this will stop is when decent fans make it stop. Punishining everyone isnt the answer for me

 

[Red in STL]

I swear, I see more people complaining about "wokeness" than there are actual acts of wokeness going on.

TBH I wouldn't even know, I have no idea what is or isn't wokeness!

 

[SilentWitness]

The money men dont.

Every match I have ever been to has had certain pockets of fans being vile. I once had an Everton fan singing in my face about United players lying in the snow. United fans in the pubs around the ground singing songs about Wenger being a Peado etc. Vile stuff.

The only way this will stop is when decent fans make it stop. Punishining everyone isnt the answer for me

It shouldn't be up to other fans to make the difference. As others have said in the thread before, some are scared of what will happen to them if they do confront people who are being homophobic and racist. What is currently being done isn't good enough. Education isn't enough. Fines aren't enough. Targeting individuals isn't enough.

 

[Red in STL]

The money men dont.

Every match I have ever been to has had certain pockets of fans being vile. I once had an Everton fan singing in my face about United players lying in the snow. United fans in the pubs around the ground singing songs about Wenger being a Peado etc. Vile stuff.

The only way this will stop is when decent fans make it stop. Punishining everyone isnt the answer for me

Most decent fans aren't gonna risk getting their heads kicked in, especially in a pub where the other guy has proabably had 10 pints of special brew

 

[Mr Pigeon]

TBH I wouldn't even know, I have no idea what is or isn't wokeness!

From what I can gather it means "hey folks, maybe we can make the world a bit fairer for people?" which results in some people getting very upset because they're little snowflake cnuts.

But I'm not a scholar, just a simple pigeon.

 

[OnlyTwoDaSilvas]

I felt the same about the Lukaku chant... that was pathetic too. No mention of the guys' skin colour whatsoever, and yet people automatically assumed it had a racist meaning (which makes me question, who really are the racist ones?) Could it not simply have just been because the guy was a tank? I somehow don't seem to remember 'big dick' chants for players like Defoe, Wright-Phillips etc I wonder why.

FYI, the young lad at Leeds, Wilfried Gnonto, has been subjected to a similar chant to the Lukaku one this season, and he's not a tank in any way. He's the same sort of height and build as Wright-Phillips. Both chants are, very clearly, based on a racial stereotype.

 

[SilentWitness]

FYI, the young lad at Leeds, Wilfried Gnonto, has been subjected to a similar chant to the Lukaku one this season, and he's not a tank in any way. He's the same sort of height and build as Wright-Phillips. Both chants are, very clearly, based on a racial stereotype.

He does have big willy energy though.

 

[Red in STL]

From what I can gather it means "hey folks, maybe we can make the world a bit fairer for people?" which results in some people getting very upset because they're little snowflake cnuts.

But I'm not a scholar, just a simple pigeon.

Well if folks want to be fairer to people then stopping buying cheap goods from poor countries would probably have a better effect, but that's just me. I'm just a relatively uneducated Manc

 

[Lash]

I've resisted commenting on this for a while, but I do think there are people who, for whatever reason, simply don't understand just how offensive this is to LGBTQ+ people like myself. The fact is that 'it's just banter' simply doesn't cut it. It's my reality that having received homophobic abuse from a player at a non-league ground I volunteered at I'll no longer go there, because I simply don't feel safe anymore. I'm physically afraid of what the 'banter' might escalate to - and for good reason. Sadly the prelude to many physical attacks on gay people is banter, especially when challenged. I was abused by one player but in front of the whole team, who thought it was funny and laughed. Great banter for them, terrifying for me. In a recent survey of LGBTQ+ people by Stonewall, 82% of the community said they'd witnessed homophobia in sport, and a shocking 43% of LGBTQ+ people felt sporting events weren't welcoming to them. Those stats alone should make people think seriously about the issues.

Thank you for sharing your experience, as I can't imagine that's pleasant to post and I'm sorry that happened to you.

I hope you've since found a club that's far more welcoming since.

 

[NotThatSoph]

Behind closed doors has been done before for hooligans and didn't really work, United had behind the goal in the Stretford End closed off for a period in the 70's and that didn't work that well either - in today's world where every game is televised I'm not sure how effective that would be either

3 points - hits the team rather than the guilty people, (and the majority of fans) you just know that some fans would try and wind up the opposition fans in to doing something moronic, you could end up having the most successful teams being the ones with the least number of idiots and morons supporting them

The only way I can see these issues being resolved is to have big brother watching the crowd intently and giving automatic life bans to the guilty parties

It hits the guilty people as well, because they want their team to win. It also gives the club a serious incentive to get rid of the garbage, because the club wants to keep their points. To speak from personal experience, after a racist incident the club in question was quick to release a statement about how horrible it was and that they had a zero tolerance policy. After the league started talking about consequences, magically the offender was banned, while before there was just generalized talk and no action. Identifying the racist was always easy, they just didn't bother before.

I'm not sure how you arrive at the conclusion that point penalties or closed doors don't work. If you're saying that they're not panaceas, that they don't magically stamp out all the filth, then sure, that's true, but that's a strange bar to set. As a parallel, I know for a fact that people have chosen not to use flares at games because the club will get punished. Of course that doesn't mean that flares cease to exist, I also know fans of the very same club who didn't stop, but that doesn't mean that bans and penalties don't work.

 

[Tarrou]

I swear, I see more people complaining about "wokeness" than there are actual acts of wokeness going on.

we all do mate

 

[calodo2003]

I swear, I see more people complaining about "wokeness" than there are actual acts of wokeness going on.

 

[Red in STL]

It hits the guilty people as well, because they want their team to win. It also gives the club a serious incentive to get rid of the garbage, because the club wants to keep their points. To speak from personal experience, after a racist incident the club in question was quick to release a statement about how horrible it was and that they had a zero tolerance policy. After the league started talking about consequences, magically the offender was banned, while before there was just generalized talk and no action. Identifying the racist was always easy, they just didn't bother before.

I'm not sure how you arrive at the conclusion that point penalties or closed doors don't work. If you're saying that they're not panaceas, that they don't magically stamp out all the filth, then sure, that's true, but that's a strange bar to set. As a parallel, I know for a fact that people have chosen not to use flares at games because the club will get punished. Of course that doesn't mean that flares cease to exist, I also know fans of the very same club who didn't stop, but that doesn't mean that bans and penalties don't work.

Did closed stadiums work - take recent closures due to racist stuff in Eastern Europe, it didn't stop it, it didn't stop hooligans in the 70 and 80's either, the reality is that racists and hooligans are a small minority and they don't really care unless they get caught, I'd guess the same applies to the people who chant the homophobic stuff as well as the aeroplane stuff and all the rest of it

Taking points of clubs hurts the majority and won't stop anything unless the minority are punished, to do that effectively they need to be identified and caught in the act, clubs do need to do more no question but the fans will not change until it hurts them personally

 

[padr81]

so punish thousands of genuine fans or the players because of a few arseholes!
Thats not the answer

@Red in STL - I'll respond to you here as well.

Its sad and not cool for those missing out but its not like there isn't precedent, stadiums have been closed before for racism (in Eastern Europe) but it has to be consistent and zero tolerence (which its not yet). I'm not talking about punishing 5 fans when the number is small they can be dealt with individually, I'm talking about when its in the hundreds or thousands. We can't just let it go on as is sadly.

Every time I see a fan of my club make an aeroplane gesture I'd be absolutely fine with targeting just them but when or if its numerous throughout the 90 minutes the FA saying "No fans for one game" and escalating from there would actually make me happy.

These morons who behave like this, have this weird thing where football is more important to them and its almost a parasocial relationship with their club. Their clubs are more important than families in some cases, we all know how for example domestic abuse spikes when teams lose etc... When they know what they are doing is affecting "their" club, they'll stop, their beliefs will not change but the behaviour will.

I imagine for the first while it'll be chaos but isn't short term pain worth it to allow 15% of the global community to attend a game without feeling like they don't belong or are 2nd class citizens or in the case of racism far greater than 15%.

You did make a great point about the regular people having to stop it McGrathsipan but whats gonna motivate those who normally sit by and do nothing through indifference to step up and tell these people to stop, its when the knock on effect hits them.

This problem seems to be much deeper in football than say rugby audiences or cricket audiences because its been allowed to fester sadly. You guys are well intentioned but an iron fist is what I believe is the only solution.

 

[NotThatSoph]

Did closed stadiums work - take recent closures due to racist stuff in Eastern Europe, it didn't stop it, it didn't stop hooligans in the 70 and 80's either, the reality is that racists and hooligans are a small minority and they don't really care unless they get caught, I'd guess the same applies to the people who chant the homophobic stuff as well as the aeroplane stuff and all the rest of it

Taking points of clubs hurts the majority and won't stop anything unless the minority are punished, to do that effectively they need to be identified and caught in the act, clubs do need to do more no question but the fans will not change until it hurts them personally

This isn't really a reply. It's you repeating that it's not a miracle cure, and it's you repeating that it doesn't work at all. The former is obviously true, but not very relevant, and the latter is obviously false. The question isn't whether it works or not, because obviously it does work to some extent, it's how well it works, how well it works compared to alternatives, and whether or not the effect is worth the fact that you're also punishing people who didn't do the thing.

 

[Tommy79]

I've resisted commenting on this for a while, but I do think there are people who, for whatever reason, simply don't understand just how offensive this is to LGBTQ+ people like myself. The fact is that 'it's just banter' simply doesn't cut it. It's my reality that having received homophobic abuse from a player at a non-league ground I volunteered at I'll no longer go there, because I simply don't feel safe anymore. I'm physically afraid of what the 'banter' might escalate to - and for good reason. Sadly the prelude to many physical attacks on gay people is banter, especially when challenged. I was abused by one player but in front of the whole team, who thought it was funny and laughed. Great banter for them, terrifying for me. In a recent survey of LGBTQ+ people by Stonewall, 82% of the community said they'd witnessed homophobia in sport, and a shocking 43% of LGBTQ+ people felt sporting events weren't welcoming to them. Those stats alone should make people think seriously about the issues.

That bloody horrific and no person should have to put up with that vile shit and you are right not to feel safe. I have to say that between politicians and those useless cnuts "kick it out" have a lot to answer for as they were only interested in what was directed at people of colour and maybe if they had off shown the same interest to all that were being abused, granted it be still there to a degree but maybe further down the road in stamping it out for good, as remember those tossers waited 3 years to defend james mcclean and had to be shamed into it after his 2-year-old, yes a 2-year-old got a nice present of a bullet sent to her with her name on it.


feck fining clubs or banning the entire ground, more cameras and stop with this fine shite, jail them and not mickey mouse bleeding heart leftie judges sentences of a month and out in a week, proper jail time of 1 year upwards. As the current leader of my country is openly gay and ya think if some of the vile thing you hear at grounds was aimed at him or any of his kind (politicians) they be only handing out fines and joke sentences, no it be heavy porridge time and no TR.

 

[Red in STL]

@Red in STL - I'll respond to you here as well.

Its sad and not cool for those missing out but its not like there isn't precedent, stadiums have been closed before for racism (in Eastern Europe) but it has to be consistent and zero tolerence (which its not yet). I'm not talking about punishing 5 fans when the number is small they can be dealt with individually, I'm talking about when its in the hundreds or thousands. We can't just let it go on as is sadly.

Every time I see a fan of my club make an aeroplane gesture I'd be absolutely fine with targeting just them but when or if its numerous throughout the 90 minutes the FA saying "No fans for one game" and escalating from there would actually make me happy.

These morons who behave like this, have this weird thing where football is more important to them and its almost a parasocial relationship with their club. Their clubs are more important than families in some cases, we all know how for example domestic abuse spikes when teams lose etc... When they know what they are doing is affecting "their" club, they'll stop, their beliefs will not change but the behaviour will.

I imagine for the first while it'll be chaos but isn't short term pain worth it to allow 15% of the global community to attend a game without feeling like they don't belong or are 2nd class citizens or in the case of racism far greater than 15%.

You did make a great point about the regular people having to stop it McGrathsipan but whats gonna motivate those who normally sit by and do nothing through indifference to step up and tell these people to stop, its when the knock on effect hits them.

This problem seems to be much deeper in football than say rugby audiences or cricket audiences because its been allowed to fester sadly. You guys are well intentioned but an iron fist is what I believe is the only solution.

The point I'm trying to make is that closing stadiums doesn't work, it didn't work in the 70's, there's a famous clip of George Best scoring a lob at an empty Stretford End that had been closed due to persistent hooliganism, I don't recall how long it was closed but it was more than a few matches, it didn't stop the problem

With today's technology and facial recognition software it should be relatively easy to identify and prosecute/ban individuals, why this doesn't seem to have been properly implemented is down to the police and the clubs - it can and should be done

As for indiviuals, it takes a brave person these days to intervene in anything, it's not indifference they're afraid of retaliation and retribution