I'm talking 1980-83 ish but I suspect the posh birds are still there!
LGBT issues in Football
- Thread starter esmufc07
- Start date
We're talking football fans here, common sense goes out of the window when they get to the ground or enter an online forum!
It's not that I don't want to hear your opinion. It's that it's so cliche and old, that we've heard it all before mate, it's not original.
The reason why you're getting the response is that the pattern is the same.
Play devil's advocate.
People disagree.
Claim you're being attacked for your point of view.
It's Facebook atheist debating circa 09.
Well it's irrelevant because you're talking about someone claiming racism where there was no mention of skin colour, ethnicity or any kind of slur used.
This is specifically about a pejorative term which directly references sex between men so it's not the same at all.
On your last point this thread was started something like two years ago and this specific chant has been talked about on and off for well over a year and as far as I'm aware that is yet to have happened. However, even if it happened once it wouldn't make it ok when LGBT groups have requested it not be used and now CPS also disagree with you. It has been defined as a homophobic slur and fans can now be prosecuted for it.
https://www.skysports.com/football/...rent-boy-slur-could-face-prosecution-says-cps
It's one thing to keep saying something is homophobic and offensive but it might be helpful if they would explain why it is.
It's been done to death in the thread. I can only assume some people just don't actually want to listen.
I'm not a fan of what I consider to be extremist and misguided LGBTQ, Feminist and BLM movements in the West, but I'd imagine that this has something to do with the playing up of derogatory stereotypes that are generally no longer true, and hence harmful to a community that have to put up with it.
As previously mentioned, a bit like Park requesting us fans to stop singing his song about dogs. There was new-found awareness that most East Asians don't actually eat dogs and even consider it taboo/offensive.
I'd like to think that most of us would want to live in a respectful, tolerant and pragmatic society.
What needs explaining? Why calling someone a gay prostitute is homophobic and offensive or what "Rentboy" means? (It means gay male prostitute).
Heard it all before have you? That's too bad... well, as long as this current trend of finding new things to be offended by every week continues, and trying to force people into thinking the same way (while dressing it up as "being progressive"), people like myself will continue to push back against it, and you're gonna keep hearing it, I'm afraid. We're not just gonna eventually go quiet and submit. And... It's not meant to be 'original', I'm not telling a joke. I'm talking about a serious matter. But the fact that you've "heard it all before" as you claim, and refuse to acknowledge what is actually going on, tells me it's a waste of time trying to explain it to you... you're too far gone.
Listening, and agreeing, are not the same thing.
Why is that relevant though? If a Chelsea player at the time had been caught with the same guy... what would the difference have been?
Andrew, is that really you?
Heard it all before have you? That's too bad... well, as long as this current trend of finding new things to be offended by every week continues, and trying to force people into thinking the same way (while dressing it up as "being progressive"), people like myself will continue to push back against it, and you're gonna keep hearing it, I'm afraid. We're not just gonna eventually go quiet and submit. And... It's not meant to be 'original', I'm not telling a joke. I'm talking about a serious matter. But the fact that you've "heard it all before" as you claim, and refuse to acknowledge what is actually going on, tells me it's a waste of time trying to explain it to you... you're too far gone.
Go to a football ground and give a go.
Oh and the people who think we shouldn't use homophobic slurs to insult opposing fans because of something that may or not have happened 30 years ago are the ones that are too far gone? That's pretty funny.
Do you use homophobic slurs in general conversation with your mates, because you know it's free speech and they're only words?
I think you're missing the point here:
If a Chelsea player had been caught with the guy, that would have been excellent material for both the media and for rival fans at the time.
If a Chelsea player had been caught with a female prostitute, that would also have been good * material (for both the media and rival fans).
But (and that was the point): if a Chelsea fan had been caught with a female prostitute, that would have been an absolute non-story for the media (and hardly great material for rival fans either).
* Nowhere near as good as it would've been today, of course, given that Chelsea were nowhere near as newsworthy back then.
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By listening I meant understanding what was being said by a minority who have historically been and often continue to be insulted, discriminated against and suffer violence because of their sexuality.
If the clubs, the Crown Prosecution Service, the clubs' supporters clubs and LGBT fan organisations are all telling you it's offensive, why are you so desperate to push back on that? What is the gain here?Heard it all before have you? That's too bad... well, as long as this current trend of finding new things to be offended by every week continues, and trying to force people into thinking the same way (while dressing it up as "being progressive"), people like myself will continue to push back against it, and you're gonna keep hearing it, I'm afraid. We're not just gonna eventually go quiet and submit. And... It's not meant to be 'original', I'm not telling a joke. I'm talking about a serious matter. But the fact that you've "heard it all before" as you claim, and refuse to acknowledge what is actually going on, tells me it's a waste of time trying to explain it to you... you're too far gone.
I wouldn't bank on that if you persist in this thread
Heard it all before have you? That's too bad... well, as long as this current trend of finding new things to be offended by every week continues, and trying to force people into thinking the same way (while dressing it up as "being progressive"), people like myself will continue to push back against it, and you're gonna keep hearing it, I'm afraid. We're not just gonna eventually go quiet and submit. And... It's not meant to be 'original', I'm not telling a joke. I'm talking about a serious matter. But the fact that you've "heard it all before" as you claim, and refuse to acknowledge what is actually going on, tells me it's a waste of time trying to explain it to you... you're too far gone.
So you don't believe in progress, education and learning about ourselves as a society so we can correct previously problematic behaviours from bygone eras?
Heard it all before have you? That's too bad... well, as long as this current trend of finding new things to be offended by every week continues, and trying to force people into thinking the same way (while dressing it up as "being progressive"), people like myself will continue to push back against it, and you're gonna keep hearing it, I'm afraid. We're not just gonna eventually go quiet and submit. And... It's not meant to be 'original', I'm not telling a joke. I'm talking about a serious matter. But the fact that you've "heard it all before" as you claim, and refuse to acknowledge what is actually going on, tells me it's a waste of time trying to explain it to you... you're too far gone.
The level of self-importance in this post is hilarious.
The arrogance to think you have a better understanding of what constitutes homophobic abuse in football than all the people and groups Jippy mentioned is one thing, but backing it with the dorky "we're not going to go quietly and submit" spiel like you're fighting Skynet is another.
He has nothing to back up his point of view either. It's "well I did it before and no one said anything then, why should I stop now?". It's a childlike argument and doesn't try to look any deeper at why people are saying it and justifies not doing so, by saying it's PC culture gone mad.
The rent boy chants are tradition at this point.
That classic homophobic tradition.
It should go away (like every other derogatory chant) but in a strange way I've gotten used to the news of it of being sang popping up again from time to time.
I think this is what people are forgetting. You may not currently feel like you are being homophobic, as you've always said it and never thought of it like that, but it's rooted in homophobia. It's carried through the last half century, tacking on to any sort of cultural reference with Chelsea, as a homophobic slur.
Yeah... that's not going to be my main objective, to try and start that chant when going to a football ground. In fact, it wouldn't even be on my mind. It's not about trying to be childish... it's just refusing to do anything differently than what I would've already done before, it's that simple. And what do you mean about homophobic slurs? I don't find myself using the term "rentboy" in conversations with mates, but then we don't usually get into discussions about male prostitutes, funnily enough. I'm sure you'd find something in my conversations to get worked up by though.
I wouldn't bank on that if you persist in this thread
That's fine. Like I said in the first post, I was prepared for this to be the case, because this is what happens. It'd only prove me right. However... I will say this... I'm only replying now to other's posts that are directed at me, and answering people's questions, which I'm surely allowed to do.
I've made it clear what my views are. I'd happily not post anything more in this thread if I didn't have people quoting me and talking directly to me, so...I absolutely do. You'd be surprised. One of my favourite countries in the world in fact, is the Netherlands. If I'm not mistaken, they were one of the first in Europe to legalise homosexuality, gay marriage, transsexuality, marijuana, prostitution etc etc... and I admire them for that a great deal. I believe in freedom 100%. Not only the freedom to BE who you are, but also, just as importantly, the freedom to express yourself, and your beliefs. Unfortunately, the latter seems to be dying and has been for a long time. I guess me and you most likely have different ideas on what progression means.
I don't see the gain from that sort of petty belligerence tbh. Times change and with them the acceptability of certain words or phrases. I cringe now at some of the things we said at school in the 80s and 90s, but at least I've moved on from that.
So you wouldn't use the chant yourself so we won't keep hearing it from you. What exactly are you defending in that case?
Many things that were done in the past are no longer done because we realise they weren't the right thing to do. I'm leaning towards the view that you're just trolling at this stage.
There's a discussion to be had about this.
But this rent boy thing is not a good hill to die on. It's obviously homophobic in origin, and should be treated as such.
This is such vague nonsense. You do realise, you've not actually said anything pertinent? Just sweeping generalisations that have nothing to do with what you're talking about.
You first claim about loving the Netherlands is the equivalent of saying "I'm not racist, I have loads of black friends". Freedom to express yourself and beliefs? You think this where the social fabric is crumbling? On not being able to chant about rent boys?
Your last sentence, by all means, enlighten us what you think progression would be in regard to this particular subject. This is why I don't think you're truly looking for a discussion, when you say things like that.
This is what is frustrating about stuff like this though because it's conflating to issues that aren't linked at all. Freedom to chant rent boys at a football match, aren't the thing people are defending.
Sad to see individuals here who say that "most people are just LOOKING to be offended" alongside "I don't mean actual LGBT folk"
Voices like this just diminish folk who ARE offended whether or not they are LGBT.
Said individual has been blocked and we move on but that's sadly what someone who receives such hatred has to put up with. The old bully tactic "I was just messing around" and the injured party is just supposed to apologise to the bully for the misunderstanding and "move on" but after a long time of abuse (and especially on a bloody football forum) I have to make a personal stand.
Sorry, rant over.
Voices like this just diminish folk who ARE offended whether or not they are LGBT.
Said individual has been blocked and we move on but that's sadly what someone who receives such hatred has to put up with. The old bully tactic "I was just messing around" and the injured party is just supposed to apologise to the bully for the misunderstanding and "move on" but after a long time of abuse (and especially on a bloody football forum) I have to make a personal stand.
Sorry, rant over.
I know that some people aren't defending that - yes.
But what exactly are they defending?
As much clarity/transparency as possible seems to be desirable here.
I'm sure I'll be warned, or probably banned (not that it'll make any difference to my opinion), for daring to go against the grain on what is clearly a very woke forum... but the song is NOT homophobic... it is clear to anyone with a brain (i.e. someone who can think for themselves and not just follow the media/Twitter on whatever they have decided the latest topic of "outrage" is) that the target of the joke is male prostitutes... not gay men themselves. If the Chelsea hooligan had been caught lying in bed with a man who was simply his partner, then that wouldn't be funny, and any mocking of that would be downright homophobic, sure... but it is do with the "prostitute" aspect of it. I don't get why this is so difficult for many of you to understand. Of course, in 2023, I don't expect anyone who already has the opposite view to me on this to change. However, I accept that everyone is entitled to their opinions, and if people choose to look at it a different way and therefore be offended by it, that is their right, but it doesn't mean that everyone that is offended has the right to try and force everyone to abide by their views, and try to get people banned from a stadium for singing a harmless song. Why must we always pander to these people? Being offended, doesn't always mean, you're RIGHT.
I'm sure I'll get the usual responses that I see on here such as "Wow... I have no words", whenever somebody in the minority DARES to state their alternate views (shock! horror!
Wow... I have no words
Nor do they in this thread.
Heard it all before have you? That's too bad... well, as long as this current trend of finding new things to be offended by every week continues, and trying to force people into thinking the same way (while dressing it up as "being progressive"), people like myself will continue to push back against it, and you're gonna keep hearing it, I'm afraid. We're not just gonna eventually go quiet and submit. And... It's not meant to be 'original', I'm not telling a joke. I'm talking about a serious matter. But the fact that you've "heard it all before" as you claim, and refuse to acknowledge what is actually going on, tells me it's a waste of time trying to explain it to you... you're too far gone.
This routine people like you and your carbon copies always do is so strange.
You're going on and on about how you're attacked. Even better, you're preempting the attacks by going on and on about how your prosecution is coming. Any minute now.
Your victim complex and persecution fetish are both astronomical, yet you have this hangup on other people being "offended". People dislike a homophobic chant, they'd prefer it if people stopped singing it. That's it. Perfectly simple, perfectly calm. You're the one who seem to be losing it.
You're not going to "go quiet and submit", people are forcing you to think in certain ways? Listen to yourself, Jesus Christ hanging on your cross over here.
The feck does this mean?
In addition, those chants are aimed at the players who were caught, not anyone and everyone connected to the clubs the players played for. One Chelsea fan allegedly bought sex once several decades ago, so therefore it somehow makes sense that professional footballer Conor Gallagher also moonlights as a prostitute serving other men? Rooney is called a granny shagger, Garnacho or random fans aren't.
Agreed, and being specific as well. You can't get away with, well if they stop this - what's next? Or, I don't believe there's anything you can't say.
I actually didn't know the history behind rent boys. Always assumed it was in regards to Roman renting the players
I'm sure I'll be warned, or probably banned (not that it'll make any difference to my opinion), for daring to go against the grain on what is clearly a very woke forum... but the song is NOT homophobic... it is clear to anyone with a brain (i.e. someone who can think for themselves and not just follow the media/Twitter on whatever they have decided the latest topic of "outrage" is) that the target of the joke is male prostitutes... not gay men themselves. If the Chelsea hooligan had been caught lying in bed with a man who was simply his partner, then that wouldn't be funny, and any mocking of that would be downright homophobic, sure... but it is do with the "prostitute" aspect of it. I don't get why this is so difficult for many of you to understand. Of course, in 2023, I don't expect anyone who already has the opposite view to me on this to change. However, I accept that everyone is entitled to their opinions, and if people choose to look at it a different way and therefore be offended by it, that is their right, but it doesn't mean that everyone that is offended has the right to try and force everyone to abide by their views, and try to get people banned from a stadium for singing a harmless song. Why must we always pander to these people? Being offended, doesn't always mean, you're RIGHT.
I'm sure I'll get the usual responses that I see on here such as "Wow... I have no words", whenever somebody in the minority DARES to state their alternate views (shock! horror!
Abuse because you’re gay = wrong
Abuse because you’re a prostitute = perfectly fine.
Even if the chant was more aimed at the prostitution aspect than the gay aspect, which anyone with half a brain cell can see it isn’t, does that really make it any better?