LGBT issues in Football

WeePat said:
Marcos Alonso didn't really get any criticism but he also didn't put out a statement. He just stopped taking the knee one day and when he was asked about it, he said I'd rather stand and point to the no room for racism badge on the sleeve.
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Interesting. Weird decision, if you ask me. Especially with team mates continuing to take the knee.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Interesting. Weird decision, if you ask me. Especially with team mates continuing to take the knee.
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And with his own personal history, you would think he'd just keep his head down.

This is what he said about it:

“I prefer to do it this way and, of course, to say very clearly that I am against racism and I respect everybody.

“I don’t know,” Alonso added when asked if his decision was influenced by politics. “I just prefer to do it this way. It’s my way to do it, I think it’s another way.

“And maybe I think it’s losing a bit of strength the other way, so I just prefer to do it this way and to show I am fully supportive of fighting against racism.”
 
WeePat said:
Yeah but if the reasons for not taking the knee were similar to this guy here - I'm part of a racist community that think being black (or insert any other race) is wrong/immoral - then that person would be roundly criticised too. I could be wrong but I genuinely do not think a player would be vilified if they said they don't want to wear the rainbow armband because they think it's nothing more than a symbolic gesture that football can hide behind whilst doing nothing to actually combat the issues the LBGTQ+ community face everyday and that they don't want to participate in these empty gestures when the sport could/should be doing more.
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100%

Some serious false equivalencies being drawn in this thread
 
duffer said:
Who didn't take the knee for "religious reasons"? I genuinely don't know.
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I don't know either but that wasn't my point. My point was to refute the idea that people who didn't take part in anti-racist gestures were torn apart publicly. They weren't.

You see religious reasons as an excuse to treat him differently, and that's your right. I personally don't care, as long as you don't weaponize those beliefs (religious or otherwise) against others. Then again, I don't have a vendetta against religion in general.

Pogue Mahone said:
The only valid reasons came from black footballers, as far as I can remember. Zaha is the one that first comes to mind.

Be a very different discussion if a gay footballer decided he didn’t want to wear the pride colours, obviously.
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Personally I found Zaha's reasoning very... stupid and invalid. Didn't make him a racist though.

@WeePat I didn't want to do a Chief and go crazy on the multi-posts. All I'll say in response is that I don't think the reaction in this thread would be muchly different if the captain refused to elaborate on why he didn't want to wear the armband.
 
adexkola said:
I don't know either but that wasn't my point. My point was to refute the idea that people who didn't take part in anti-racist gestures were torn apart publicly. They weren't.

You see religious reasons as an excuse to treat him differently, and that's your right. I personally don't care, as long as you don't weaponize those beliefs (religious or otherwise) against others. Then again, I don't have a vendetta against religion in general.
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The people who didn't take the knee all explained their reasons. That's why nobody piled on them (even Marco Alonso, who everyone already hates).

Saying "religious reasons" but not what those religious reasons are is a cop-out, not an explanation.
 
Think a lot find a lot of these campaign ineffective because it is fine fans applauding the players taking the knee or acclaiming them for wearing the rainbow arm bands, but what is the point if once they step outside the stadium they carry on being racist or homophobic. This highlights the problems in society, but until society outside sport does something from government, police down then nothing will change. People need educating and unfortunately there are people out there who just refuse to be educated. The punishments are just not strong enough. Great someone is banned by a club for racism, they are still a racist and will just carry on being a racist but football has washed their hand of them.
 
Pascal Quiff said:
It isn't nonsense at all. He clearly states that due to religious reasons he doesn't agree with homesexuality so would be conflicted wearing a rainbow armband. I'd personally prefer outright honesty than the smirking 'nudge nudge' tweets of Casillas and Puyol.
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Homosexuality isn’t a choice ffs. This cnut doesn’t get to accept it or reject it. Wear the armband, you’re supposed to be the captain.
 
Devil_forever said:
The reaction in this thread to this is mind numbing, why the shock? Why the surprise? How many Muslims do you guys know that are remotely accepting of homosexuality?

Why is he allowed to get away with it? He should be fired but we all know he won’t be.
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Quite a lot actually. Especially those in the UK and Europe.
 
Devil_forever said:
The reaction in this thread to this is mind numbing, why the shock? Why the surprise? How many Muslims do you guys know that are remotely accepting of homosexuality?

Why is he allowed to get away with it? He should be fired but we all know he won’t be.
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I know a Muslim who is gay. I reckon that constitutes “remotely accepting”, right? Similarly, I know Muslims who drink alcohol and do drugs. Just like I know Christians who have sex outside marriage and eat meat on a Friday. Not everyone who belongs to a certain religion will adhere to every element of it. Even a fairly strict religion, such as Islam.
 
Feyenoord are sponsored by a betting company, a lottery company, and an alcohol company - when will he denounce these?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I know a Muslim who is gay. I reckon that constitutes “remotely accepting”, right? Similarly, I know Muslims who drink alcohol and do drugs. Just like I know Christians who have sex outside marriage and eat meat on a Friday. Not everyone who belongs to a certain religion will adhere to every element of it. Even a fairly strict religion, such as Islam.
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Oh no I’ve met quite a few who break the other rules in Islam but very few who accept homosexuality. I wonder how many of his peers this gay Muslim is accepted by.
 
Should be stripped of the captaincy at a minimum. Would be a strong statement by Feyenoord that they are actually supportive of LGBT values, rather than paying lip service to it.
 
BD said:
Of course he has a right to choose, and we have a right to call him (or at least his actions) homophobic and to criticise him for it.
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Yes you do. I don’t agree that not wearing an armband means you’re homophobic though
 
duffer said:
He has a choice on what he allows on the shirts he wears though.

Plenty of players have refused to promote gambling on their shirts before, it's as easy as a bit of masking tape. He'd have to actually have to give a shit to do that though.
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No he doesn’t regarding the tshirt. He wears the club shirt thats it.
 
2 man midfield said:
I get what you're saying, that it seems a bit absolutist - either you're fully on board with us or you're part of the problem. Should he be forced to wear the armband? Of course not. His wider comments seem to imply that he feels doing so would endorse homosexuality, which is something he is banned from doing. That's his right.

I would however counter that by saying people are allowed to tell him they disagree, and some of those people are going to consider his act/comments homophobic.
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If they consider them homophobic is doesn’t mean they are right.

Just like some people consider those who don’t take the knee to be racist
 
2 man midfield said:
I get what you're saying, that it seems a bit absolutist - either you're fully on board with us or you're part of the problem. Should he be forced to wear the armband? Of course not. His wider comments seem to imply that he feels doing so would endorse homosexuality, which is something he is banned from doing. That's his right.

I would however counter that by saying people are allowed to tell him they disagree, and some of those people are going to consider his act/comments homophobic.
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Such a weird notion. That anyone is being asked to “endorse” homosexuality. They’re not advertising a product. They’re showing their support for people that have suffered a lot of prejudice. Which is a particularly acute problem in football, on the terraces and on the pitch. Refusing to show that support is, obviously, contributing to that prejudice. Whether that’s on the basis of their religion or any other reason, it amounts to exactly the same thing.
 
Cassidy said:
No he doesn’t regarding the tshirt. He wears the club shirt thats it.
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He can tape over the logo, and then face the consequences if there are any, or he can choose to play for another club. He either doesn't have any religious objections against promoting gambling even though gambling is against his religion, or he has religious objections that are less important than taking a stand that may impact his paycheck.

Cassidy said:
If they consider them homophobic is doesn’t mean they are right.

Just like some people consider those who don’t take the knee to be racist
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He says he has religious objections to wearing the armband, what are those objections? He wears an armband every week, so it's not a general thing. It has to be something specific with this particular armband. His religion doesn't say anything about rainbows, so it's not how the armband looks. He has to have some objections to the message. What?
 
duffer said:
He's fine endorsing gambling every week though (also on his shirt sleeve, funnily enough), something also against the religious belief he claims to hold so dear.

I just don't understand how people can pick and chose which of the rules they bother with and yet still proclaim "it's against my religion" whilst expecting anyone to take them seriously.
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It is his choice and whether we like it or not it is his choice. People have right to chose. What I do wonder is as you said. Does he pick and chose or is he following holy books to 100%? If he doesn't, can he really say it is about religion or is there something else?
 
Cassidy said:
If they consider them homophobic is doesn’t mean they are right.

Just like some people consider those who don’t take the knee to be racist
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It’s subjective, of course. But a lot of people will see it that way, and it’s up to him to decide if that bothers him.
 
NotThatSoph said:
He can tape over the logo, and then face the consequences if there are any, or he can choose to play for another club. He either doesn't have any religious objections against promoting gambling even though gambling is against his religion, or he has religious objections that are less important than taking a stand that may impact his paycheck.



He says he has religious objections to wearing the armband, what are those objections? He wears an armband every week, so it's not a general thing. It has to be something specific with this particular armband. His religion doesn't say anything about rainbows, so it's not how the armband looks. He has to have some objections to the message. What?
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Face the consequences being financial penalties from the club…. I think you know thats more than not giving a shit.

Well yes I think we’re all clear his reasons are he does not want to promote homosexuality. I don’t see anything wrong with that choice fundamentality even if I do not agree with it. Its his choice.

That doesn’t mean he is descriminating against the LGBT community. Just like someone who doesn’t take the knee isn’t descriminating against the “black” community.

Thats just my opinion though.
 
Cassidy said:
Face the consequences being financial penalties from the club…. I think you know thats more than not giving a shit.

Well yes I think we’re all clear his reasons are he does not want to promote homosexuality. I don’t see anything wrong with that choice fundamentality even if I do not agree with it. Its his choice.

That doesn’t mean he is descriminating against the LGBT community. Just like someone who doesn’t take the knee isn’t descriminating against the “black” community.

Thats just my opinion though.
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Why doesn't he want to promote homosexuality, what does he think is wrong with it?
 
Devil_forever said:
The reaction in this thread to this is mind numbing, why the shock? Why the surprise? How many Muslims do you guys know that are remotely accepting of homosexuality?

Why is he allowed to get away with it? He should be fired but we all know he won’t be.
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So you’re saying he should be fired because hes Muslim?

Do you not think that attitude is exactly what you want to stamp out? People should not be discriminated against for any reason, whether thats sexuality, religion, race or whatever.
 
Captain of my team and a very good guy, does a lot for the community and one of the most humble and down to earth players you'll ever find. He has the right as a Muslim to choose not to wear that armband. It's his choice and right to not. He said and most Muslims will tell you, you can be gay or trans or whatever, good for you and each to their own but don't compel me to support it openly. Censored speech is bad but only thing that is worse is compelled speech or actions.

Most on here are willing to pile down on his religious beliefs in order to prop up the LGBT struggle, you should perhaps not be so hypocritical and be more understanding yourselves before throwing stones in glass houses.
 
therealtboy said:
Captain of my team and a very good guy, does a lot for the community and one of the most humble and down to earth players you'll ever find. He has the right as a Muslim to choose not to wear that armband. It's his choice and right to not. He said and most Muslims will tell you, you can be gay or trans or whatever, good for you and each to their own but don't compel me to support it openly. Censored speech is bad but only thing that is worse is compelled speech or actions.

Most on here are willing to pile down on his religious beliefs in order to prop up the LGBT struggle, you should perhaps not be so hypocritical and be more understanding yourselves before throwing stones in glass houses.
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Very well said. It's the hypocrisy that gets me. Most would preach against discriminations and such as it pertain to things they are concerned about but are quick to shoot down other beliefs and choices if it doesn't align with their specific agendas. That's ridiculous to me.

Dude doesn't want to wear an armband due to reasons he seems sufficient to him, so what, it's not a big deal. It's his choice, as long as he doesn't perpetrate hatred and bigotry.
 
Santoryo said:
Very well said. It's the hypocrisy that gets me. Most would preach against discriminations and such as it pertain to things they are concerned about but are quick to shoot down other beliefs and choices if it doesn't align with their specific agendas. That's ridiculous to me.

Dude doesn't want to wear an armband due to reasons he seems sufficient to him, so what, it's not a big deal. It's his choice, as long as he doesn't perpetrate hatred and bigotry.
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The reasons are that he thinks being gay is morally wrong and a sin. You think it's discrimination to find this homophobic.
 
His religious beliefs are a choice. People's sexuality isn't. And if his religious beliefs frame LGBT people in a negative light then they're inherently malignant. Being gay isn't.

Not affording X the same level of respect as Y is only hypocricy if X deserves the same level of respect as Y. And in this case it doesn't.

People need to be tolerant of his religious beliefs, as long as they don't actively impinge on other people. But being tolerant doesn't mean you can't criticise him, criticise his beliefs, criticise his religion, think his club should disassociate themselves from his position or think his club should reconsider whether he's the man to represent them as captain.
 
sullydnl said:
His religious beliefs are a choice. People's sexuality isn't. And if his religious beliefs frame LGBT people in a negative light then they're inherently malignant. Being gay isn't.

Not affording X the same level of respect as Y is only hypocricy if X deserves the same level of respect as Y. And in this case it doesn't.

People need to be tolerant of his religious beliefs, as long as they don't actively impinge on other people. But being tolerant doesn't mean you can't criticise him, criticise his beliefs, criticise his religion, think his club should disassociate themselves from his position or think his club should reconsider whether he's the man to represent them as captain.
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Fantastic post.
 
sullydnl said:
His religious beliefs are a choice. People's sexuality isn't. And if his religious beliefs frame LGBT people in a negative light then they're inherently malignant. Being gay isn't.

Not affording X the same level of respect as Y is only hypocricy if X deserves the same level of respect as Y. And in this case it doesn't.

People need to be tolerant of his religious beliefs, as long as they don't actively impinge on other people. But being tolerant doesn't mean you can't criticise him, criticise his beliefs, criticise his religion, think his club should disassociate themselves from his position or think his club should reconsider whether he's the man to represent them as captain.
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Yep, spot on post.
 
I've read all the comments on this carefully. Of course he has the right to not wear the armband - but as a gay man I also have the same right to criticise his stance. Having suffered from homophobic abuse at football (admitedly at non-league level), I find it at the very least disappointing and sad. I have maybe another take on the issue - as quite frankly I'm a bit sick of organisations using the rainbow flag one minute then not supporting the community the next.
 
Cassidy said:
Face the consequences being financial penalties from the club…. I think you know thats more than not giving a shit.

Well yes I think we’re all clear his reasons are he does not want to promote homosexuality. I don’t see anything wrong with that choice fundamentality even if I do not agree with it. Its his choice.
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Nobody is trying to "promote" homosexuality, the armband is a symbol for respect and equality. Nobody is trying to make anyone gay, that's not how it works and that's unfortunately textbook conservative narrative.

therealtboy said:
Captain of my team and a very good guy, does a lot for the community and one of the most humble and down to earth players you'll ever find. He has the right as a Muslim to choose not to wear that armband. It's his choice and right to not. He said and most Muslims will tell you, you can be gay or trans or whatever, good for you and each to their own but don't compel me to support it openly. Censored speech is bad but only thing that is worse is compelled speech or actions.

Most on here are willing to pile down on his religious beliefs in order to prop up the LGBT struggle, you should perhaps not be so hypocritical and be more understanding yourselves before throwing stones in glass houses.
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I've heard this argument far too many times. It starts with "you can be gay or trans but don't make me support it", dig a little and it turns into "you can be gay but you can do it privately, you don't have to make me see it" and usually quickly end in "gays a freaks of nature, it's unnatural and shouldn't be allowed".
 
sullydnl said:
His religious beliefs are a choice. People's sexuality isn't. And if his religious beliefs frame LGBT people in a negative light then they're inherently malignant. Being gay isn't.

Not affording X the same level of respect as Y is only hypocricy if X deserves the same level of respect as Y. And in this case it doesn't.

People need to be tolerant of his religious beliefs, as long as they don't actively impinge on other people. But being tolerant doesn't mean you can't criticise him, criticise his beliefs, criticise his religion, think his club should disassociate themselves from his position or think his club should reconsider whether he's the man to represent them as captain.
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Religion is as much a choice as having a belief that the world is round is a choice. Belief isn’t a choice - it is a conviction. Can you choose to be a Muslim? Nice try justifying discrimination against religious groups though while standing on your high horse.

Will you extend this to the Jewish community who hold that same beliefs - genuinely interested?

Also, not having a choice in something doesn’t make it ok. Just as society has reasons to be morally against pedophilia and incest, Muslims have reasons to be morally against homosexuality. The key word here being morally.

And before your heads explode, being morally against someone acting in a certain way doesn’t mean you discriminate against them in the public sphere, just as Muslims are morally against drinking alcohol or sex outside marriage but can still hold good relationships with people who partake in said actions. Or are we going to discriminate against religious people who hold these views too?

Unless of course we are turning into a society that polices thought, I’d be careful with your line of reasoning.
 
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