LGBT issues in Football

stw2022 said:
So ‘South Africa wants to segregate based on colour that’s their choice, who wee we to influence them. How would we feel if they tried to influence our laws’ would have been your view at the time?
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No that isn't my view. I asked another poster how he would react to others changing our Western policies.
 
What about western policy to influence other govts to improve availability of education to girls?

Is that one of those “their country, their rules” things or, as I suspect, this really just reserved for LGBT people when human rights and dignity are compared to a Heineken?
 
VorZakone said:
Are you alright mate? All I did was asking another poster how he would react if other countries tried to change Western policies.
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This is enough to be called a fascist here. Honestly those people who throw fascism card left right centre have no idea what are they parroting about.

Either they don't live in a country that experienced the fascism atrocities or they never had a history book in their hands. Or both.
 
VorZakone said:
No that isn't my view. I asked another poster how he would react to others changing our Western policies.
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So at the time you would have challenged those pressuring western govts to try and change the SA policy of apartheid by asking “How would you feel if they tried to influence our western policies”?
 
VorZakone said:
Mate, this isn't about the ban of alcohol being less bad than suppressing LGBT rights. What point are you making here? The greater context is other countries influencing Western policy.

Let's say for the sake of hypothetical argument that others are right now persuading us to ban alcohol. Would you be fine with it? What exactly is your point?

I never claimed alcohol banning and suppressing LGBT rights are the same.
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That is ALL it is about. If my objection was to wanton oppressive policy my feelings would be irrelevant and not worthy of being heard in a civilized society. The question you are asking is moot and unworthy of debate.
 
stw2022 said:
So at the time you would have challenged those pressuring western govts to try and change the SA policy of apartheid by asking “How would you feel if they tried to influence our western policies”?
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No I wouldn't.
 
UDontMessWith24 said:
That is ALL it is about. If my objection was to wanton oppressive policy my feelings would be irrelevant and not worthy of being heard in a civilized society. The question you are asking is moot and unworthy of debate.
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Unworthy of debate? Okay, thanks for replying.
 
VorZakone said:
Are you alright mate? All I did was asking another poster how he would react if other countries tried to change Western policies.
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The answer to this is pretty easy isn't it?

If they were trying to change a policy I agreed with, I'd be against it.

If they were trying to change a policy I didn't agree with I'd be for it.
 
Eyepopper said:
The answer to this is pretty easy isn't it?

If they were trying to change a policy I agreed with, I'd be against it.

If they were trying to change a policy I didn't agree with I'd be for it.
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Finally somebody just answers the question. That being said, would you take active measures in pressuring our government to resist these foreign interferences? Seriously, I'm genuinely curious. This is a world of geopolitics, we have the likes of Russia and China sitting around, probably trying all kinds of shenanigans.
 
Eyepopper said:
The answer to this is pretty easy isn't it?

If they were trying to change a policy I agreed with, I'd be against it.

If they were trying to change a policy I didn't agree with I'd be for it.
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Yeah, it's not very complicated. I still don't know what he's on about - he seems to be one of those 'I'm only asking questions' types.
 
Eyepopper said:
The answer to this is pretty easy isn't it?

If they were trying to change a policy I agreed with, I'd be against it.

If they were trying to change a policy I didn't agree with I'd be for it.
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Human rights violations have nothing to do with differing opinions in that opinions favoring them should not be entertained in the first place
 
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VorZakone said:
Finally somebody just answers the question. That being said, would you take active measures in pressuring our government to resist these foreign interferences? Seriously, I'm genuinely curious. This is a world of geopolitics, we have the likes of Russia and China sitting around, probably trying all kinds of shenanigans.
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Well it would depend what the policy related to.

If I lived in a country that had a policy that actively discriminated against gay people, I'd be fully behind the foreign power trying to influence change.
 
UDontMessWith24 said:
There is nothing grey about homophobia and the persecution of LGBTQ. If you’re so bothered by a rainbow flag on a bottle of water or whatever the feck has you up in arms, you have the option of not buying it. Do gay men in Brazil have the option of not being beaten to death if the wrong person or people find out? Common decency is 100% black and white.
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I think you misunderstood my point. I was referring to the fact that morally questionable people sometimes do the right thing - for whatever reason.

I agree 100% with the bit in bold.
 
At one point are any of you cowards going to just say you don’t believe gay people are deserving of equality instead of all this intellectually dishonest gibberish? Are you that fragile and afraid that you can’t say it on a message board?
 
UDontMessWith24 said:
At one point are any of you cowards going to just say you don’t believe gay people are deserving of equality instead of all this intellectually dishonest gibberish? Are you that fragile and afraid that you can’t say it on a message board?
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It’s easier to hide behind dog whistle homophobia
 
Botim said:
It's complicated. I do think eating meat is dusgusting and profoundly immoral. But I think the same about racism, yet I still love my mom, who often makes casual racist remarks. And I don't think less of her because of it.
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You should.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
I think you misunderstood my point. I was referring to the fact that morally questionable people sometimes do the right thing - for whatever reason.

I agree 100% with the bit in bold.
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Morally questionable people can be influenced by their environment for their own betterment. People exposed to diversity for the first time often realize everything they have been taught is wrong. The problem is when you entertain certain views as part of accepted social construct you end up with an Orban.
 
VorZakone said:
Are you alright mate? All I did was asking another poster how he would react if other countries tried to change Western policies.
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The Netherlands have been criticized by the UN for their Zwarte Piet tradition, and I agree. I suppose Canada has been criticized for the way it has and continues to treat Indigenous Peoples, and I agree. A US senator has now criticized Canada about its religious freedoms (priests have been arrested due to their violations of COVID-19 rules), and I disagree. Case, by case, why would this be complex?

It's a deceitful equivalency though. The criticism on Hungary here is in relation to suppression. Someone else was comparing it to the idea of Arab countries advocating banning alcohol elsewhere. That's not quite advocating against surpression is it? Not all criticism is of equal moral value.
Kamprad said:
No thank God no one is yet. But it’s just a matter of time. I don’t know about the music but I don’t think children should see sexulized music videos.

Gay people should be able to live with anyone they like without beeing harassed. But some part of the movement that comes along I can’t stand. It’s about love they say, not sex, but they sure love to sexualize everything. Including children. I don’t know about Russia and Hungary other laws or treatment of these people. I’m sure it’s not good. But this law in particular I cant disagree with.
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You're off on a weird tangent here. First, you're equating pride parades with the LGBT movement. That's a bit reductionist, no? Also, what's with the sexualization of kids? Does the LGBT community do that in particular? Finally, it's a bit funny to say that you don't know about the laws in Hungary, cause that's exactly what's at stake here. And to help you a bit: they're about surpressiong even mentioning the existence of LGBT etc, like in schools. How does that square with your focus on sexualization here?
 
Botim said:
What a ridiculously pathetic thing to say.
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You realise casual racism is still racism right?

It’s incredibly pathetic and lazy to let it slide, much like casual homophobia or any other hate speech. People being fine with the casual aspect of it stop real change from occurring through laziness,

If you’re fine with your mum being a casual racist then you’re fine with a certain level of racism, that simple. She shouldn’t get a pass just because she‘s your mum.
 
Botim said:
What a ridiculously pathetic thing to say.
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He didn’t say you should love her any less.
However, if you accept it without comment you are approving of her casual racism. If you do not use those moments to engage in a dialogue as to why you think what she is saying is wrong then maybe you really don’t have an issue with it.
 
Uefa should hire Desmond for some + pr to get out of this mess

 
@VorZakone
Your problem is with foreign influence, ok. You compared these protests to a foreign country trying to stop a western one from selling alcohol. Someone said that one type of foreign pressure is to increase freedom while the other would be to reduce freedom. But you disagreed - basically, the type of intervention doesn't matter since it may not be seen the same way in every country/culture. Fair enough.
But then you rejected comparisons with apartheid or with girls' education. Why? If the type of intervention doesn't matter, surely all are equal? It is equally offensive to protest apartheid in the 80s, protest the new laws in Hungary, and to protest Belgian beer consumption, since these are all foreign protests.

For me, I have no problem if foreigners criticise aspects of my govt, as long as they are not planning to forcibly change the govt.
 
What does the left make of the fact that there are many countries in Africa and die islamic world in in which homosexuals are prosecuted by the state. Is berating these countries on these issues some sort of colonialism or even racism?
Unfortunately I am not allowed to post media links but you can easily find them yourselves for example "african leaders on homosexuality" on youtube or a "map of countries that criminalize lgbt people".
 
weltcheftrainer said:
What does the left make of the fact that there are many countries in Africa and die islamic world in in which homosexuals are prosecuted by the state. Is berating these countries on these issues some sort of colonialism or even racism?
Unfortunately I am not allowed to post media links but you can easily find them yourselves for example "african leaders on homosexuality" on youtube or a "map of countries that criminalize lgbt people".
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Why is it only 'the left' that should react to the persecution of LGBT people?
What has this got to do with football?
 
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UDontMessWith24 said:
At one point are any of you cowards going to just say you don’t believe gay people are deserving of equality instead of all this intellectually dishonest gibberish? Are you that fragile and afraid that you can’t say it on a message board?
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Calm down and stop throwing out insults.
 
Kamprad said:
No thank God no one is yet. But it’s just a matter of time. I don’t know about the music but I don’t think children should see sexulized music videos.

Gay people should be able to live with anyone they like without beeing harassed. But some part of the movement that comes along I can’t stand. It’s about love they say, not sex, but they sure love to sexualize everything. Including children. I don’t know about Russia and Hungary other laws or treatment of these people. I’m sure it’s not good. But this law in particular I cant disagree with.
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Can you explain what you mean here please.
 
Jippy said:
Why is it only 'the left' that react to the persecution of LGBT people?
What has this got to do with football?
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And: how is that anyway not already often the subject of criticism?
 
weltcheftrainer said:
What does the left make of the fact that there are many countries in Africa and die islamic world in in which homosexuals are prosecuted by the state. Is berating these countries on these issues some sort of colonialism or even racism?
Unfortunately I am not allowed to post media links but you can easily find them yourselves for example "african leaders on homosexuality" on youtube or a "map of countries that criminalize lgbt people".
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Equally as awful. Why are you calling out "the left" as if equality of LGBT is somehow a difference of political ideology.
 
weltcheftrainer said:
What does the left make of the fact that there are many countries in Africa and die islamic world in in which homosexuals are prosecuted by the state. Is berating these countries on these issues some sort of colonialism or even racism?
Unfortunately I am not allowed to post media links but you can easily find them yourselves for example "african leaders on homosexuality" on youtube or a "map of countries that criminalize lgbt people".
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Do you just blank out the screaming voices because they’re lefties?

You, me and everyone else knows that people absolutely DO call out these nations for their attitudes and practices.

The issue in this thread is in Hungary though, which isn’t in Africa or in the Islamic world, so we’re talking about Hungary right now.

Or is your overriding point that we shouldn’t be talking about this at all because you’re uncomfortable with it, which is usually why someone brings out the ‘what about’ argument.
 
Jippy said:
Why is it only 'the left' that react to the persecution of LGBT people?
What has this got to do with football?
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The recent campaign against Hungary was done by the left. Homosexuality is illegal in Qatar for example. There will be many more teams from countries with similar laws playing the next world cup. Should we then turn every game in a political demonstration? How would you react it some of these countries show their solidarity with Assange or against abortion or what not before the game? Is this the way you want football to go?
 
matherto said:
If you’re fine with your mum being a casual racist then you’re fine with a certain level of racism, that simple. She shouldn’t get a pass just because she‘s your mum.
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Where the feck did I say i was fine with it? We have very heated arguments all the time. I said I don't love her any less because she makes casual remarks that today are seen as racist. (But weren't not so long ago) You come across as the type that scours twitter day and night to lecture people on how terrible they are.

WI_Red said:
He didn’t say you should love her any less.
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Yes he did. He literally said I should think less of her.

My mum was born and raised in Belgian Congo. It's very easy for us to judge, but her whole worldview is based on decades of misinformation.

I argue with her all the time. This pedantic indignation towards anyone that doesn't become ultra woke overnight is just disgusting though. And exactly the reason why so many people never vote left (even if it's in their best interest).
 
matherto said:
Do you just blank out the screaming voices because they’re lefties?

You, me and everyone else knows that people absolutely DO call out these nations for their attitudes and practices.

The issue in this thread is in Hungary though, which isn’t in Africa or in the Islamic world, so we’re talking about Hungary right now.

Or is your overriding point that we shouldn’t be talking about this at all because you’re uncomfortable with it, which is usually why someone brings out the ‘what about’ argument.
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I think they want us to choose between homophobia and racism. We can't just take everything away.
 
weltcheftrainer said:
What does the left make of the fact that there are many countries in Africa and die islamic world in in which homosexuals are prosecuted by the state. Is berating these countries on these issues some sort of colonialism or even racism?
Unfortunately I am not allowed to post media links but you can easily find them yourselves for example "african leaders on homosexuality" on youtube or a "map of countries that criminalize lgbt people".
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“Siri, show me whataboutism.“
 
weltcheftrainer said:
The recent campaign against Hungary was done by the left. Homosexuality is illegal in Qatar for example. There will be many more teams from countries with similar laws playing the next world cup. Should we then turn every game in a political demonstration? How would you react it some of these countries show their solidarity with Assange or against abortion or what not before the game? Is this the way you want football to go?
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You're not answering my question. You use 'the left' as a pejorative term for anyone who stands up for human rights, dismissing them as a fringe concern.

Does the rainbow make you feel uncomfortable?
 
berbatrick said:
@VorZakone
Your problem is with foreign influence, ok. You compared these protests to a foreign country trying to stop a western one from selling alcohol. Someone said that one type of foreign pressure is to increase freedom while the other would be to reduce freedom. But you disagreed - basically, the type of intervention doesn't matter since it may not be seen the same way in every country/culture. Fair enough.
But then you rejected comparisons with apartheid or with girls' education. Why? If the type of intervention doesn't matter, surely all are equal? It is equally offensive to protest apartheid in the 80s, protest the new laws in Hungary, and to protest Belgian beer consumption, since these are all foreign protests.

For me, I have no problem if foreigners criticise aspects of my govt, as long as they are not planning to forcibly change the govt.
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Where did I disagree with increasing freedom?
 
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