But they are legalHome Depot also houses (Largely minority) day laborers. Can't have that now can we.
Let's "Correct The Record"
- Thread starter Americano
- Start date
@Americano
Let's begin the record correcting with this...
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cn...ay-trump-tax-returns/index.html?client=safari
Although we might get to see them anyway...
https://www.google.com/amp/thehill.com/homenews/administration/315542-wikileaks-send-us-trumps-tax-returns-so-we-can-release-them?amp?client=safari
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Those are details. Trump supporters don't care about details.
Did nobody tell @Brwned you're not allowed to ask for reasoning?
white people really do suckPutin has an ear in the white house and these clowns think America will be great again.
@Mockney
There isn't "a Trump voter." There are many.
There are the diehard Republicans. From Raegan to Trump via Bush and McCain, they vote one way. Demographically, they trend rural, white, rich, and uneducated. It's not that a city-dwelling poor college-educated black (huh?) can't be a Republican, but the trends are in the opposite direction.
But this is the core base, they weren't enough to beat Obama. What swung the crucial states for Trump was ex-Democrats in ex-industrial areas. Union members, reliable blue voters, were split this time. Ex-factory workers, now unemployed or in a part-time job, didn't like what Clinton was offering them. Miners in West Virginia had fled about a decade ago, notwithstanding their historic, fatal struggle with their GOP-friendly bosses.
Not everyone in his coalition are true believers. But he obviously had tremendous support within his own party. There are many kinds of people, for whom accusations of racism/sexism are a more serious problem than racism/sexism, for whom strength means bullying other countries and courtesy is weakness, for whom Mexicans, not market forces, are stealing jobs, for whom integration of races is a negative and looking and speaking differently is a cultural threat, for whom crimes committed by minorities are proof of their innate violent nature and existential threat, programs directed towards these minorities are theft from their pockets, and for whom Washington is controlled by elite liberal university professors who talk in platitudes and fatten their wallets while directing the theft from white to non-white. Trump could rally these vague feelings into his slogans - MAGA, wall, lock her up.
There isn't "a Trump voter." There are many.
There are the diehard Republicans. From Raegan to Trump via Bush and McCain, they vote one way. Demographically, they trend rural, white, rich, and uneducated. It's not that a city-dwelling poor college-educated black (huh?) can't be a Republican, but the trends are in the opposite direction.
But this is the core base, they weren't enough to beat Obama. What swung the crucial states for Trump was ex-Democrats in ex-industrial areas. Union members, reliable blue voters, were split this time. Ex-factory workers, now unemployed or in a part-time job, didn't like what Clinton was offering them. Miners in West Virginia had fled about a decade ago, notwithstanding their historic, fatal struggle with their GOP-friendly bosses.
Not everyone in his coalition are true believers. But he obviously had tremendous support within his own party. There are many kinds of people, for whom accusations of racism/sexism are a more serious problem than racism/sexism, for whom strength means bullying other countries and courtesy is weakness, for whom Mexicans, not market forces, are stealing jobs, for whom integration of races is a negative and looking and speaking differently is a cultural threat, for whom crimes committed by minorities are proof of their innate violent nature and existential threat, programs directed towards these minorities are theft from their pockets, and for whom Washington is controlled by elite liberal university professors who talk in platitudes and fatten their wallets while directing the theft from white to non-white. Trump could rally these vague feelings into his slogans - MAGA, wall, lock her up.
Amongst other things, this is excellent writing (IMO).
Come again? He did it without republican support all the way. They've all leeched onto him now of course. But I suspect the likes of Paul Ryan, Priebus et al will be in for some disappointments too. Trump hasn't forgotten what they all said about him and how they treated him. Which ones showed up to the convention to speak on his behalf? Not many of the establishment repubs.
Meant party members/base, not leaders.
Edit: he got almost 50% even when it was a double digit field.
A lot of that was a refusal to vote for a Clinton. They were holding their noses and voting as much as dems were.
He got 14m primary votes (45%) in a field of 17 with 4-5 high profile rivals, as compared to Romney's 10m (52%).
But didn't a lot of his support come from newly-registered voters, not old-time typical repubs?
That's very possible, which is why I started the post saying there isn't "a" Trump voter.
Edit:
http://www.politico.com/magazine/st...2016-polling-turnout-early-voting-data-213897
Reliable GOP voters are Hillary's basket of deplorables, IMO.
Bringing prosperity will make America great again, for everyone. Jobs, economic optimism, increased investment, money coming back in from overseas, new businesses starting, refocusing on manufacturing and industry, increased labor participation, and working folks getting a raise once in a while.
Trump equals money in the minds of the public, and that perception alone can help create an overall climate of optimism and real, rapid growth. The day after the election, financial optimism returned, despite all the dire warnings to the contrary. People I know are starting businesses and looking to invest where before they had been cautious. You want policy: decreasing corporate tax rate, deregulating industry, reshaping the tax code, keeping American businesses in the US, repatriating assets, and a general business-friendly attitude.
As for the past, we can look back to a great time when a young man could come back from the army, open a gas station, and make enough money to buy a Ford Mustang and a small home to start his family. I think NAFTA was a big turning point in the wrong direction, as Ross Perot (and Trump) said at the time. You could argue that it has been trending downward since Nixon, the Kent State massacre, since "Made In Japan" started, or whatever year the national debt started to grow out of proportion to GDP. It's been a while by any measurement.
I know @Raoul has a problem with "old" videos that make Clintons look foolish, but here's another populist slapping around another Clinton back in the day.
How is Trump going to achieve all of this? His plans to reduce tax may have a short-term benefit but will see massive debt increases in the long-term. The same debt you complain about growing out of proportion!
And many American jobs which have been lost have been lost simply due to the economic capitalist system which they support; if you believe in free market, low regulation capitalism (which the Republicans are supposed to) then jobs moving overseas because of better opportunities or wages is an inherent side effect of that. To celebrate that system for decades and then decide that, nah, you don't like it anymore when you have lost as opposed to someone else is incredibly counter-productive and selfish.
You say yourself about 'deregulating industry' but this isn't something Trump will do. He intends to bring back coal jobs and undermine renewable energy, and will no doubt help his oil buddies. That's regulating industry! Deliberately trying to keep companies in the US by either undermining their opportunities to move abroad or imposing tariffs etc is also regulating industry. What you really mean is that you want to see industry deregulated when it suits you, but will quite happily see it regulated to feck at times as well. Which, again, is a counter-productive capitalistic stance to take. Why are free-market capitalists so determined to oppose their own values? Globalisation and trade deals are inherent effects of capitalism...because capitalism and consumerism doesn't care about nationalism or any one country. It's inherently about making money.
Of course, your whole stance is undermined by the fact you're recalling an America which never really existed. Yeah, maybe it worked for you, but the 60s saw an immense struggle for civil rights which were being undermined, saw LGBT groups shunned from society because of prejudice, and those eras were still full of people in poverty and people in destitution. Yes, it worked for some, but your post is an example of the exaggeration of the American Dream...you look at some people who worked hard and succeeded, and see that as something everyone did, or that everyone was capable of.
Of course, Trump himself doesn't stand for what you speak of at all. He was born into wealth, and regularly found himself financed by his dad as he squandered more and more money. He dodged the draft, and managed to luck into becoming a media celebrity over time.
That's interesting, because Trump inherited his money and proceeded to involve himself in a long series of business schemes which lost hundreds of millions for investers. Eventually he reached a point where his lines of credit were basically closed, causing him to transition into TV and selling his name as a brand. Whenever he's tried to conduct business in any sense other than just licensing his name he has been a dismal failure.
Yet apparently the perception that he's a great businessman is going to cause America to suddenly experience radical growth?
This is my favourite bit.
Independent gas stations are getting squeezed because of corporate greed. The profit margins on gas are slim and set entirely by the suppliers....big oil.
And I wonder what Trump and his real estate mogul buddies would make of any plan to bring property prices down to where they were 50 or 60 years ago?
Is Americano trying to bring back the draft too?
If Trump's as incompetent at foreign policy as he is at running businesses, he may get his wish.
Mine too, I miss that man dearly. He was a great American.
I don't want to insult your family. So apologies if that's the way it came across (and your example wasn't as hypothetical as it seemed). I'm just amazed that you think voting in Trump will somehow turn back the clock to the post-war years.
Although, as per my previous post, there's a good chance he'll bring about a whole new set of post-war years....
It's incredible that people think the small businessman who's been done out by corporate greed and globalisation will be in any way helped by a man who epitomises the most ugly aspects of...corporate greed and globalisation. Difficult to tell if such people are being naive, desperate, or don't really believe what they say and like to wind others up.
That's a good one. The America I describe is one I experienced.
The America that you decry is an invention of internet children.
When Costco, Walmart and others see gas as a way to simply drive traffic and don't intend to make any profit on it, it becomes impossible almost by definition to run a gas station close to any of those at a profit.
That's exactly what I'm saying, though. It's the America you experienced. Not the one those who had to fight for their civil rights experience. Not the one those who found themselves living in destitution or poverty experienced. Not the one just about anyone in an ignored minority group experienced. You live in a massive, massive country, diverse in its people and geography. To suggest the America you experienced is in any way universal undermines the struggles many experienced.
An America in which people were able to prosper and succeed may have existed, but it didn't exist for anywhere near everyone. People today can still succeed from very little. It's just that it's hard...and unfortunately the methods, and types of business, through which people can succeed is changing and revolutionising. People may not be able to open their own gas station, for example, but sectors such as technology and renewable energy among others are booming, and are full of opportunity.
If people want to succeed then they have to adapt to these sectors, and aim to succeed in them. Decrying that your country is no longer what it was in the past is useless. The world has changed, continues to change, and will continue to change. That's a hard fact of life, and trying to go back to a time of the past is only going to end poorly.
Possibly but no doubt he'd be sure to make himself exempt in the process. Cowards tend to like others to fight their battles for them.
I haven't said that. You asked me to describe when America was great and I provided a real example which the forum then went on to ridicule and question.
I think Trump will bring prosperity, and this will unite the country in a spirit of optimism and growth. Get past his personality and start liking the guy. He has a lot to offer.
Why do you think he's a coward? Do you know something we don't?
Surely this is exactly the type of post that keeps posters like @Americano from participating fully in the debate on here.
So you can see my ethnicity and skin color through the computer screen?
Well maybe. But it's not like he's bringing a whole lot to the table in the first place is he?
Well do you think that time of your father was also great for minorities?
Well he's one of only three or four posters on the 'other' side of the debate on this forum - personally I'm finding the main Trump thread a bit of a cesspool of outrage at the moment, a bit of actual discussion of policy is much appreciated and insulting one of the only sources of the alternative view doesn't seem like a great idea to me.
America is currently making Pakistan look like a political paradise
No. I haven't said that at all. People of all backgrounds and races were able to succeed...but it doesn't negate my point that some faced an immense struggle for some pretty basic rights, does it? Or that those people have it far, far better off today than they did back then?
I see you've conveniently dodged the rest of my post, though. Again, America will not become 'great again' by trying to return to past ways. Those days are fundamentally now gone...if America wants to succeed then it will have to do so by looking to the future and innovating. Trump trying to bring back old coal jobs, for example, is inherently flawed. Instead, he should be aiming to focus on the booming renewable sectors, and making America a leading world figure in it. His intention to bring back coal panders to a base who want jobs that don't really exist, or don't really have any legitimate place in a modern world going forward.
Instead of having to use tariffs or engage in trade wars to get companies to stay or succeed in America, companies should instead focus on making better products. This is how you succeed. To me it doesn't seem very American (if we see America as a great, innovative and successful country) to blame your economic woes on China or Mexico taking jobs. If you want to live in a capitalistic system, which you've already suggested you do, then the way you succeed is through being good at what you do. Not through throwing tantrums when other countries become better at your own game.
The reason a lot of US companies moved their production overseas was because they had to pay for annoying things like breaks, vacations, pensions, healthcare, maternity leave and give a minimum wage. Let's hope Trump removes all of that to make things better for working families.
Fair enough. I guess we're all struggling to understand what "great" looks like to people who voted Trump. The example you gave seems to explain your expectations. In that context, I think it's fair for people to point out how unrealistic they are.