Let's "Correct The Record"

I reiterate my fascination with this weird self justifying, "keep shouting it until we believe it" idea of greatness. Where do these people think America's global standing was during the Obama's years? And where do they think it is now?

They must surely be aware that Obama was seen as a smart, rational leader and that Trump is seen as a shouty manianc, or have they genuinely convinced themselves otherwise? There weren't global protests at Obamas inauguration. Is it a Milwall style "everyone hates us and we don't care" approach to greatness? And if so, how does that greatness measure itself? Is greatness just telling each other you're great, without a snowflake, or the real world contradicting you?

I can understand those who've suffered under neo liberal capitalism thinking the American dream has failed them, and I can even emphasise with the desire to kick back against the system, but surely they don't really believe a narcissistic self tanning east coast billionaire, whose already sounded out the very same "crooked Hillary" Wall Street fat cats for economic positions, is going to change that? And if greatness is to come through greater isolationism, how does that chime with his promise of increased military strength and a hawkish pro-Zionist cabinet? None of it makes any internal logical sense. It just seems to be about flags and shouting and repeating the word "great" to themselves ad infinitum. Is that where Americas greatness has been lacking? Visibly bombastic shouty flag wavers? I've always felt they were overstocked in that department, personally.
 
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Mockney said:
I reiterate my fascination with this weird self justifying, "keep shouting it until we believe it" idea of greatness. Where do these people think America's global standing was during the Obama's years? And where do they think it is now?

They must surely be aware that Obama was seen as a smart, rational leader and that Trump is seen as a shouty manianc, or have they genuinely convinced themselves otherwise? Is it a Milwall style "everyone hates us and we don't care" approach to greatness? And if so, how does that greatness measure itself? Is greatness just telling each other you're great, without a snowflake, or the real world contradicting you?

I can understand those who've suffered under neo liberal capitalism thinking the American dream has failed them, and I can even emphasise with the desire to kick back against the system, but surely they don't really believe a narcissistic self tanning east coast billionaire, whose already sounded out the very same "crooked Hillary" Wall Street fat cats for economic positions, is going to change that? And if greatness is to come through greater isolationism, how does that chime with his promise of increased military strength and a hawkish pro-Zionist cabinet? None of it makes any internal logical sense. It just seems to be about flags and shouting and repeating the word "great" to themselves ad infinitum. Is that where Americas greatness has been lacking? Visibly bombastic shouty flag wavers? I've always felt they were overstocked in that department, personally.
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Great post.
 
Mockney said:
I reiterate my fascination with this weird self justifying, "keep shouting it until we believe it" idea of greatness. Where do these people think America's global standing was during the Obama's years? And where do they think it is now?

They must surely be aware that Obama was seen as a smart, rational leader and that Trump is seen as a shouty manianc, or have they genuinely convinced themselves otherwise? Is it a Milwall style "everyone hates us and we don't care" approach to greatness? And if so, how does that greatness measure itself? Is greatness just telling each other you're great, without a snowflake, or the real world contradicting you?

I can understand those who've suffered under neo liberal capitalism thinking the American dream has failed them, and I can even emphasise with the desire to kick back against the system, but surely they don't really believe a narcissistic self tanning east coast billionaire, whose already sounded out the very same "crooked Hillary" Wall Street fat cats for economic positions, is going to change that? And if greatness is to come through greater isolationism, how does that chime with his promise of increased military strength and a hawkish pro-Zionist cabinet? None of it makes any internal logical sense. It just seems to be about flags and shouting and repeating the word "great" to themselves ad infinitum. Is that where Americas greatness has been lacking? Visibly bombastic shouty flag wavers? I've always felt they were overstocked in that department, personally.
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The paradox of Trump's political views becomes bigger and bigger the further you deep. He supports low tax and thus capitalistic government...except when it's his oil company mates failing and renewable energy, where he'll interfere to help them. Or when it's companies he doesn't like outside America succeeding. Or immigrants. Because any of them winning under a system which inherently has winners and losers, and under which Trump has succeeded, is unthinkable.

He claims to be anti-interference and isolationist...but is desperately committed to defeating ISIS. And seems pro-nuclear weapons. And has put in a fairly pro-war defence secretary (although admittedly that's probably his best choice). And, despite his isolationism and protectionism, he'll still likely interfere in another countries affairs whenever they do well or do something he doesn't like at all.

He - and by extension his party - gave up on having an actual, reasonable. ideology a while back. Say what you want about the likes of Nixon and Reagan, but at least they stood for something...sort of.

Trump's political views are inherently contradictory. And that's even before you look back at when he's actually said something contradictory to those contradictory viewpoints.
 
You guys want to fire the manager before he starts the season, should you lot wait and see if he does good or bad? So far he's the president of the US and no nuclear wars so you may be wrong about him. I have a gut feeling he will be a good president and i will complain about him if I see he's not doing what he promised. I want a wall built? I'm not sure if will stop all the illegals to cross the border so will be cheaper to make a law if someone gives jobs to illegals to be penalized. ACA needs a replacement because why insurance companies pay for comdoms? Why a 80years old woman's insurance covers her pregnancy? He needs to change that but we need to have insurance for people who doesn't qualify for welfare (they work) but without the insane deductibles we have now. Give the man a chance.
 
barros said:
You guys want to fire the manager before he starts the season, should you lot wait and see if he does good or bad? So far he's the president of the US and no nuclear wars so you may be wrong about him. I have a gut feeling he will be a good president and i will complain about him if I see he's not doing what he promised. I want a wall built? I'm not sure if will stop all the illegals to cross the border so will be cheaper to make a law if someone gives jobs to illegals to be penalized. ACA needs a replacement because why insurance companies pay for comdoms? Why a 80years old woman's insurance covers her pregnancy? He needs to change that but we need to have insurance for people who doesn't qualify for welfare (they work) but without the insane deductibles we have now. Give the man a chance.
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I like how the bar has been set so low for him that not annihilating mankind on day one of the job has been regarded as a successful start.
 
Cheesy said:
The paradox of Trump's political views becomes bigger and bigger the further you deep. He supports low tax and thus capitalistic government...except when it's his oil company mates failing and renewable energy, where he'll interfere to help them. Or when it's companies he doesn't like outside America succeeding. Or immigrants. Because any of them winning under a system which inherently has winners and losers, and under which Trump has succeeded, is unthinkable.

He claims to be anti-interference and isolationist...but is desperately committed to defeating ISIS. And seems pro-nuclear weapons. And has put in a fairly pro-war defence secretary (although admittedly that's probably his best choice). And, despite his isolationism and protectionism, he'll still likely interfere in another countries affairs whenever they do well or do something he doesn't like at all.

He - and by extension his party - gave up on having an actual, reasonable. ideology a while back. Say what you want about the likes of Nixon and Reagan, but at least they stood for something...sort of.

Trump's political views are inherently contradictory. And that's even before you look back at when he's actually said something contradictory to those contradictory viewpoints.
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Trump is pretty easy to figure out, as a person. He's an egotistical political opportunist with no set ideology other than "feck over my enemies" and a spoiled rich kid whose never been called out for a lie, so naturally assumes he can always get away with it. It's his supporters I'm more interested in. Yes a lot of them are dumb, but half of America can't be certifiably insane? There has to be a more than a few of them who thought he was genuinely going to improve their lives, or "make America great again" even if that's an inherently intangible term.

It's them I'm fascinated by. And what they think said greatness means? Because for all the rhetoric about the liberal bubble being our undoing (and it was to an extent) all the data shows Trump supporters live in an even greater one. They just managed to be geographically superior in a tactical sense. I'm morbidly interested in what kind of greatness they're invested in. Because so far I've not heard one single definition that makes any sense...He's objectively the most unpopular incoming president of all our lifetimes (possibly for centuries) and yet there seem to be people who genuinely believe he's going to restore this aforementioned imaginary "greatness", despite being unable to express what that means beyond the word itself!

Can it really be as simple as dumb, powerless people liking being told they're great just for living somewhere? It could be, but I'd like more info before concluding the obvious... And if it is, how do they justify the global popularity of Obama (the most respected President in my lifetime) as a failure of American greatness?
 
Mockney said:
Trump is pretty easy to figure out, as a person. He's an egotistical political opportunist with no set ideology other than "feck over my enemies" and a spoiled rich kid whose never been called out for a lie, so naturally assumes he can always get away with it. It's his supporters I'm more interested in. Yes a lot of them are dumb, but half of America can't be certifiably insane? There has to be a more than a few of them who thought he was genuinely going to improve their lives, or "make America great again" even if that's an inherently intangible term.

It's them I'm fascinated by. And what they think said greatness means? Because for all the rhetoric about the liberal bubble being our undoing (and it was to an extent) all the data shows Trump supporters live in an even greater one. They just managed to be geographically superior in a tactical sense. I'm morbidly interested in what kind of greatness they're invested in. Because so far I've not heard one single definition that makes any sense...He's objectively the most unpopular incoming president of all our lifetimes (possibly for centuries) and yet there seem to be people who genuinely believe he's going to restore this aforementioned imaginary "greatness", despite being unable to express what that means beyond the word itself!

Can it really be as simple as dumb, powerless people liking being told they're great just for living somewhere? It could be, but I'd like more info before concluding the obvious... And if it is, how do they justify the global popularity of Obama (the most respected President in my lifetime) as a failure of American greatness?
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I think there's just an element of tribalism among a lot of Republican supporters which has become more and more entrenched over the years. It's a tribalism which has gotten to the point where they just hate liberals, hate the Democrats, hate Obama/Clinton and whoever else because it's largely what they've been told to do, and it's what everyone around them does. And it's gotten to the point where they hate those groups more than they hate (arguably) genuine, foreign threats to their country like Russia.

Perhaps we just underestimated how far they would go. After all, it's not as if Americans (especially rural redneck southern types) being mocked is a new thing. People regularly joke about Americans being stupid (for things like guns, lack of healthcare etc), and this has something which has long been commonplace despite them being a massive world power over just about everyone in the West. Despite this assumption of stupidity, we kind of assumed that because Trump was far worse than GBW or any Republican before him, they'd see Trump in the same light.

And then there are those who, with more than a twinge of nostalgia, view the past as being far better than it was, and don't want to be left behind as we move towards a more equal world driven by concerns for things like climate change and other such important issues. They want their era back. For some, it's Reagan. For some, it's Nixon. For some, who used to vote Democrat, it's perhaps even JFK or LBJ. For some it's probably Eisenhower's era, the 50s America I think a lot strive to look back to as the sort of image of typical American family life in a prosperous post-war era.

The irony, of course, is that a lot of the figures in the eras they look to - primarily Eisenhower and Reagan - would be turning in their grave at some of Trump's attitudes. The Republican party has long dwindled from what it once was, and in becoming a sort of monstrous far-right entity has bred its own deformed monster.
 
Americano said:
Here's a photo for all you redcafe folks who pushed out and shut down the people who voiced support for Donald Trump and his campaign platform. You wouldn't expect to find David Brock's "nerd virgins" trying in vain to control their precious narrative on a soccer website, but life is full of surprises. Here's one I bet you never expected.

correct_the_record.jpg


America is a better place today. Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Now let's build that wall.
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You lost too mate, you just don't know it yet.
 
He'll be impeached. Apparently he has already put himself in the firing line by not properly detaching himself from his assets.
 
Mockney said:
Trump is pretty easy to figure out, as a person. He's an egotistical political opportunist with no set ideology other than "feck over my enemies" and a spoiled rich kid whose never been called out for a lie, so naturally assumes he can always get away with it. It's his supporters I'm more interested in. Yes a lot of them are dumb, but half of America can't be certifiably insane? There has to be a more than a few of them who thought he was genuinely going to improve their lives, or "make America great again" even if that's an inherently intangible term.

It's them I'm fascinated by. And what they think said greatness means? Because for all the rhetoric about the liberal bubble being our undoing (and it was to an extent) all the data shows Trump supporters live in an even greater one. They just managed to be geographically superior in a tactical sense. I'm morbidly interested in what kind of greatness they're invested in. Because so far I've not heard one single definition that makes any sense...He's objectively the most unpopular incoming president of all our lifetimes (possibly for centuries) and yet there seem to be people who genuinely believe he's going to restore this aforementioned imaginary "greatness", despite being unable to express what that means beyond the word itself!

Can it really be as simple as dumb, powerless people liking being told they're great just for living somewhere? It could be, but I'd like more info before concluding the obvious... And if it is, how do they justify the global popularity of Obama (the most respected President in my lifetime) as a failure of American greatness?
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Aren't they just hoping to turn back the clock to a mythical past that didn't exist? The same way football fans think their team never used to play badly, or drop any points, in the good old days. The "Again" in MAGA is just as mystifying as the "Great" if you ask me. Nostalgia's a hell of a drug.
 
Americano said:
That's because the people who supported Trump were suspended, banned, or bullied into oblivion. It's open season for personal attacks against anyone who says anything positive about Trump.



What would you like to debate me on?

That Donald Trump is president?
That Hillary lost in an electoral landslide?
That Obama personally said his legacy was on the ballot?
That Obama gave more support to his chosen successor than any previous president?
That Obama's record was harshly repudiated by American voters?
That the Democrats are at their weakest point in a century?
That we are going to make America great again?

Don't get me wrong, I love Obama. Between rounds of golf, he destroyed the Democratic party more efficiently than anyone. The "progressive movement" cannibalized itself and still can't acknowledge its historic and comprehensive defeat(s). It's political Christmas morning every day.

It's kind of a one sided debate when you can just ban me again. But maybe you should, it would be courageous of you to make your echo chamber a safe space for you and your Fascist soccer Euro-buddies who can't stomach freedom, firearms, capitalism and greatness. Cleanse the Trump supporters off your soccer website, do it for the good of the children.
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You'll have to describe that landslide :lol:
And harshly repudiated.... 3million more voted to maintain his policies :wenger: only 2 million less than the previous election
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Aren't they just hoping to turn back the clock to a mythical past that didn't exist? The same way football fans think their team never used to play badly, or drop any points, in the good old days. The "Again" in MAGA is just as mystifying as the "Great" if you ask me. Nostalgia's a hell of a drug.
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Sure, but even that is impossible to define. Some of them want to go back to one era, others another, all of which are imaginary, and objectively worse than the present.

Nostalgia is the drug of choice for the powerless and dispossessed, but even they must have to justify Trumps idea of "greatness" to themselves? And as @Cheesy pointed out, Reagan, Nixon, JFK et al would be horrified by the current state of the right (Reagan advocated gun control similar to Obama after being shot at, for example!)..so how do you - as a Trump supporter - justify thinking Obama was a Nation destroying failure, and Trump will restore greatness? Who, how, what, where, when does that work? Even if you can't explain it (which most can't) you've surely got to think it?

That's what fascinates me. They must live in a peculiarity isolated, brainwashed mindscape.
 
The 'greatness' they speak of is mostly referencing when the USA manufactured everything. That disappeared, not because of liberals, but because of greedy rich people. It amazes me that the average Trumperson can't work this out.
 
Americano said:
America is a better place today. Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Now let's build that wall.
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Trump is righteous? And he was persecuted? And he will go to the kingdom of heaven with Melania and her half-naked pics? Or do you mean his half-brain followers?
 
Jokes aside, re: how @Americano feels (if it is indeed not a parody), do the liberals on here not see the irony of just laughing off any opposing view (people that support Trump, or try to understand how/why stuff like that is happening in the world nowadays). On top of the belittling of the opposing view, childish demeaning and hounding off the board of the opposite view.....so as to create a false bubble amongst themselves, e.g. busy calling Trump 'Drumpf' or whatever it was and pages of laughter about it....because the other side just can't be bothered to 'discuss' their views...?
 
Grinner said:
The 'greatness' they speak of is mostly referencing when the USA manufactured everything. That disappeared, not because of liberals, but because of greedy rich people. It amazes me that the average Trumperson can't work this out.
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What's hard to get for me, is exactly this line of reasoning.....the liberals talk as if everything's going swimmingly.
We've had 8 years of 'omgz the best president everrzzz' and look what so many of the people of the nation feel.
It's naive to think there wasn't going to be a backlash, and yes, I agree with some comments in this thread that Trump was an opportunist about it. My point is, I am not pro/against Trump....but understand why it happened, and you could easily have plucked him up and replaced with another loud nationalist leader and they'd have probably won too (infact I think Bernie would've probably even beaten him). Don't hate the player, hate the game!
 
Member 5225 said:
What's hard to get for me, is exactly this line of reasoning.....the liberals talk as if everything's going swimmingly.
We've had 8 years of 'omgz the best president everrzzz' and look what so many of the people of the nation feel.
It's naive to think there wasn't going to be a backlash, and yes, I agree with some comments in this thread that Trump was an opportunist about it. My point is, I am not pro/against Trump....but understand why it happened, and you could easily have plucked him up and replaced with another loud nationalist leader and they'd have probably won too (infact I think Bernie would've probably even beaten him). Don't hate the player, hate the game!
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Some light reading that might explain this for you xoxo ;):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_crisis_of_2007–2008
 
Member 5225 said:
Jokes aside, re: how @Americano feels (if it is indeed not a parody), do the liberals on here not see the irony of just laughing off any opposing view (people that support Trump, or try to understand how/why stuff like that is happening in the world nowadays). On top of the belittling of the opposing view, childish demeaning and hounding off the board of the opposite view.....so as to create a false bubble amongst themselves, e.g. busy calling Trump 'Drumpf' or whatever it was and pages of laughter about it....because the other side just can't be bothered to 'discuss' their views...?
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Jokes aside, some worldviews are laughable.
 
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Member 5225 said:
What's hard to get for me, is exactly this line of reasoning.....the liberals talk as if everything's going swimmingly.
We've had 8 years of 'omgz the best president everrzzz' and look what so many of the people of the nation feel.
It's naive to think there wasn't going to be a backlash, and yes, I agree with some comments in this thread that Trump was an opportunist about it. My point is, I am not pro/against Trump....but understand why it happened, and you could easily have plucked him up and replaced with another loud nationalist leader and they'd have probably won too (infact I think Bernie would've probably even beaten him). Don't hate the player, hate the game!
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The reason most of the world is shitting itself isn't because the liberals lost, or because Obama was the greatest person since Newton or something. It's because America has handed the nuclear codes to a thin skinned, mentally disabled trust fund kid and his dipshit neoconservative, white supremacists friends. A man with a history of brazen corruption and criminality with links to the mafia and advisors who take cheques from the Kremlin.
 
Mockney said:
Can it really be as simple as dumb, powerless people liking being told they're great just for living somewhere?
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Yes.

And if it is, how do they justify the global popularity of Obama (the most respected President in my lifetime) as a failure of American greatness?
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Because they're dumb.
 
Silva said:
The reason most of the world is shitting itself isn't because the liberals lost, or because Obama was the greatest person since Newton or something. It's because America has handed the nuclear codes to a thin skinned, mentally disabled trust fund kid and his dipshit neoconservative, white supremacists friends. A man with a history of brazen corruption and criminality with links to the mafia and advisors who take cheques from the Kremlin.
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And I say, simply not true. A hyperbolic opinion with absolutely no proof.

Fair enough, if you say, 'look it's a different approach, I am uneasy about it, I prefer a passive approach and he's more direct' - but the jump to 'oh he takes cheques from Putin' is why this alt-right movement exists, it's why Trump and his people just walk off the stage and shout down 'conspiracy theories' in their eyes.
 
Member 5225 said:
And I say, simply not true. A hyperbolic opinion with absolutely no proof.

Fair enough, if you say, 'look it's a different approach, I am uneasy about it, I prefer a passive approach and he's more direct' - but the jump to 'oh he takes cheques from Putin' is why this alt-right movement exists, it's why Trump and his people just walk off the stage and shout down 'conspiracy theories' in their eyes.
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Look into Paul Manafort. He's the main link to the Kremlin.

There's also Eric Trump's own words on the matter “Russians make up a pretty disproportionate cross-section of a lot of our assets…we see a lot of money pouring in from Russia”.

But hey, his son is being hyperbolic too is he?
 
Silva said:
Look into Paul Manafort. He's the main link to the Kremlin.

There's also Eric Trump's own words on the matter “Russians make up a pretty disproportionate cross-section of a lot of our assets…we see a lot of money pouring in from Russia”.
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So jumping down a rabbit hole for Trump is fine, but 'an absolute joke' and 'laughable' when done for, say, Hillary Clinton etc yeah?
It's getting tedious tbh.
 
Member 5225 said:
So jumping down a rabbit hole for Trump is fine, but 'an absolute joke' and 'laughable' when done for, say, Hillary Clinton etc yeah?
It's getting tedious tbh.
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No one ever denied her corporate corruption, but a corrupt, centrist politician is preferable to a corrupt far right, white supremacist one. The whataboutism is pretty telling though, once someone actually engages your vacuous nonsense it's immediately "yeah well, Hilary", or "Bill this, Bill that". And, we get it, really, it's hard to actually defend the moron.
 
Member 5225 said:
I worked for GS until 2 weeks ago.
Barack Obama did not much (or definately not enough) to appease the man on the street, there I said it.

Lobbyists gone from DC?
Financial firms have much less influence?
Great race-relations within the country?
etc etc

Where is all of this that was meant to happen...?!
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Did they sack you for not knowing about the financial crisis?

Seriously though, Obama might rub people that don't like his politics up the wrong way by being insanely likeable, but most of the criticisms you've aimed at him are explained by two factors: being handed an incredibly shitty hand when he came into office, and being presented with a ridiculously obstructionist legislature.

If Obama was anywhere near as bad as the right would attempt to paint him as then the US would have been utterly fecked.
 
NinjaFletch said:
Did they sack you for not knowing about the financial crisis?

Seriously though, Obama might rub people that don't like his politics up the wrong way by being insanely likeable, but most of the criticisms you've aimed at him are explained by two factors: being handed an incredibly shitty hand when he came into office, and being presented with a ridiculously obstructionist legislature.

If Obama was anywhere near as bad as the right would attempt to paint him as then the US would have been utterly fecked.
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Didn't Obama have control for like 2 whole years?
 
I asked Obama but he said "Yeah, but what about Paz?"
 
Silva said:
Yeah, and he used it to give 20 million people health insurance. What a bastard!
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I'm sure you've seen that famous facebook post where someone was gloating that now Obamacare was going to be repealed. When people pointed out to him that he is also on Obamacare and thus he has a lot to lose with this, he responded that no, he's on the ACA...

So yeah, this is the intelligence level you have to expect. What Obama actually did or did not do doesn't seem to matter in the slightest. The same way as Trump, somehow, has magically become a champion of the disenfranchised despite being the very essence of capitalist elitism that supposedly created the demand for a "politician" like him.
 
Silva said:
Yeah, and he used it to give 20 million people health insurance. What a bastard!
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Fair enough - but what a backfire of a gamble.
Also, although it may seem the 'obvious' and 'correct' thing to do for liberals, let's not forget there was/is an opposing view.

One thing that genuinely struck me during the election was seeing facebook posts of American friends of my friends talking about how their healthcare premiums went up so much, they couldn't handle it, and posted amongst themselves that they simply had to vote for Trump (talking amongst themselves how they had never voted Rep in their lives) to get rid of Obamacare and it's issues.

Was telling to me.
 
It never ends well when I get involved in the Current Events forum!
I'd better stick to just lurking on here...
 
Siorac said:
I'm sure you've seen that famous facebook post where someone was gloating that now Obamacare was going to be repealed. When people pointed out to him that he is also on Obamacare and thus he has a lot to lose with this, he responded that no, he's on the ACA...

So yeah, this is the intelligence level you have to expect. What Obama actually did or did not do doesn't seem to matter in the slightest. The same way as Trump, somehow, has magically become a champion of the disenfranchised despite being the very essence of capitalist elitism that supposedly created the demand for a "politician" like him.
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Yeah, they're idiots alright. There was also the woman Vox interviewed who was basically saved by the ACA who hated hearing the phrase Obamacare. Hell of an education system they have over there.
 
I have to say, as much as I disagree with Trump's policies, the caricaturing of voters is getting a little tiresome for me. Painting each Trump supporter as a dumb redneck with a southern accent, or every leave voter as a stupid northern racist is not only childish but counter-productive. They don't hear what you have to say because all you've done is call them a moron, who's going to want to listen to you after that?
 
Member 5225 said:
Fair enough - but what a backfire of a gamble.
Also, although it may seem the 'obvious' and 'correct' thing to do for liberals, let's not forget there was/is an opposing view.

One thing that genuinely struck me during the election was seeing facebook posts of American friends of my friends talking about how their healthcare premiums went up so much, they couldn't handle it, and posted amongst themselves that they simply had to vote for Trump (talking amongst themselves how they had never voted Rep in their lives) to get rid of Obamacare and it's issues.

Was telling to me.
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Obamacare slowed down the rate of price hikes, this has been happening for decades. If those friends get cancer in a couple of years time they've effectively signed their own death warrant.
 
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