Leighton Baines

[Decotron]

Its funny that its taken 2 years for people to realise his weaknesses. They've always been there. Tbf theres always been a few on here who didnt rate him.

 

[DWelbz19]

Its funny that its taken 2 years for people to realise his weaknesses. They've always been there. Tbf theres always been a few on here who didnt rate him.

It's just the way it is. Everton aren't a threat to the title or any sort of success, so they're considered a 'neutral' side in the league and everyone can look at their players strengths in a grossly hyperbolic manner but downplay their weaknesses. It's the same when people said Jagielka was/is better than Smalling or Jones.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Gets utterly found out at the highest level. Amongst the best left backs around going forward, but he's nothing special defensively and in a system that gives him less freedom he's average.

Yet, for some reason, he really shirked away from his attacking duties in these past two games. Compare it to Johnson - who has been equally rubbish at defending, but at least has shown some invention/drive going forward.

Imagine if our Paddy had been given the space on the left that Baines found yesterday... He'd be running amok! True, he'd have done no defending whatsoever - but at least he'd have shown some balls.

 

[Dirty Schwein]

Should have taken Shaw and Cole. A mixture of youth and experience would have been more useful but of course, hindsight is 20/20

 

[devilish]

Some people need to understand that there's an enormous difference between playing well with a mid EPL table club and doing it at top level. The pressure, the quality and the football style is totally different. Baines may look solid with Everton as he limits himself to move forward and cross however at international level he will be meeting some of the best wingers in the world. That something clubs need to take in account whenever considering spending crazy money on a mid EPL table type of player.

 

[Adebesi]

But again @devilish that is something that confuses me. You look at other teams in this WC and they are riddled with players who earn a living at second tier clubs in England, or in second tier leagues, and often in second tier clubs in second tier leagues. And yet they seem to raise their game when they play for their country.

 

[RedorDead21]

Some people need to understand that there's an enormous difference between playing well with a mid EPL table club and doing it at top level. The pressure, the quality and the football style is totally different. Baines may look solid with Everton as he limits himself to move forward and cross however at international level he will be meeting some of the best wingers in the world. That something clubs need to take in account whenever considering spending crazy money on a mid EPL table type of player.

This sums of the English mentality. If your not English they'd give you citizenship just for this! Holy shit he's been the best left back in England for over 2 years against world class players. He can more the hold his own in that company. Paul Scholes looked garbage for England, Gerrard and Lamps never did anything more than the current centre midfield partnership Russia or Switzerland are playing. Jack Wilshere looks like a mid table player. I could go on and name a 100 England players over the past 40 years who were better in the league and rightly classed as greats. England would make gold look like stone and has done for decades.

 

[devilish]

But again @devilish that is something that confuses me. You look at other teams in this WC and they are riddled with players who earn a living at second tier clubs in England, or in second tier leagues, and often in second tier clubs in second tier leagues. And yet they seem to raise their game when they play for their country.

I think the England national team problem is very complex to be honest and touches various issues. To name a few, the EPL is too long and there are too many foreigners plying the trade in the EPL.

However if you ask me, the two main problems are

a - there's a serious lack of British coaches and those who actually have coaching badges aren't up to standard.
b - the EPL allows a type of game (very physical) which won't be accepted or effective outside the EPL. As Cech and Taibi once said the shite that players can get away with is incredible.

These two issues are somehow interlinked. I mean why should a mid EPL side club spend the effort of developing a quality midfielder when he can stick a long ball merchant upfront, bombard him with crosses and still get away with it? This is creating a divide between the top clubs who have to conform with CL football and the so called mid EPL table clubs whose target is merely to stay safe in the EPL and such divide is hitting both managers and players whose finding it more difficult to make the jump and be successful.

Its time for the EPL to adapt to continental football. The physicality needs to be controlled and more protection need to be given to keepers. Once that is achieved than even the smaller clubs will start working more on technique, talent and ball possession then simply on direct football and physicality.

Getting a foreigner manager for England is pretty pointless. What England need is an overhaul in terms of mentality bottom up. There need to be ample proof that the Moyes/Allardyce type of game doesn't work and all clubs from Manchester United to Stoke need to play a more continental style of play. Once that's achieved the Allardyces will vanish from football, players will develop according to continental standards, they will be more attractive to the top EPL sides and England will be more competitive.

 

[devilish]

This sums of the English mentality. If your not English they'd give you citizenship just for this! Holy shit he's been the best left back in England for over 2 years against world class players. He can more the hold his own in that company. Paul Scholes looked garbage for England, Gerrard and Lamps never did anything more than the current centre midfield partnership Russia or Switzerland are playing. Jack Wilshere looks like a mid table player. I could go on and name a 100 England players over the past 40 years who were better in the league and rightly classed as greats. England would make gold look like stone and has done for decades.

To be fair Scholes scored 14 goals in 66 games from midfield. That's not rubbish. Its not his fault that during his time with England, the national team was lead by idiots.

 

[RedSky]

He played well in the 2nd half, although his crossing has been disappointing. The 30m price tag was laughable, he was worth about half that at his peak. I'm still convinced the only reason we wanted him was because Dave wanted some of his Yes men at Old Trafford.

 

[RedorDead21]

To be fair Scholes scored 14 goals in 66 games from midfield. That's not rubbish. Its not his fault that during his time with England, the national team was lead by idiots.

To be fair his play and form for England was garbage in comparison to his United displays...the rest is just rationalising averageness from a class act.

 

[united_99]

Completely overrated. It makes a hell of difference if you just play well for a midtable club and show a good performance here and there against top 4, or if you actually play well regularly in CL or even EL and international tournaments.

It was hilarious to read how some preferred him to Coentrao, a player who is younger, miles better technically and tactically and has been performing well in the CL and in tournaments for years now.

 

[NK86]

To be fair his play and form for England was garbage in comparison to his United displays...the rest is just rationalising averageness from a class act.

Being used on the right side of midfield to accommodate Gerrard and Lampard didn't help.

 

[mikey_d]

But again @devilish that is something that confuses me. You look at other teams in this WC and they are riddled with players who earn a living at second tier clubs in England, or in second tier leagues, and often in second tier clubs in second tier leagues. And yet they seem to raise their game when they play for their country.

I honestly think it's a lack of football intelligence in a lot of England's players. Which starts at a young age with only the fastest,strongest, players getting selected. And spending all their time on developing the technical aspect of their game as opposed to the mental aspect. Positioning,being comfortable on the ball, game management.

I watched an interesting interview with bales youth coach at Southampton and he was really close to being let go at one stage because 'they had a lot of players ahead of him'. When he clarified it was 1 because he wasn't strong enough at 15. And 2 he took too many risks with the ball and often lost it. This basically sums up English football academies, a kid almost dumped out because he was comfortable enough to try to beat players compared to the other guys who were like Matt 'most crosses in premier league' Jarvis trying to win by numbers.

 

[Revan]

As I said, England should have taken Cole and Gibbs.

Shaw is better than Gibbs. Cole and Shaw should have been there. Gibbs is better than Baines too.

I remember last summer when a lot of people here wanted Baines and I said quite a few times that we shouldn't go for him and made jokes like hopefully Everton asks for so much money that Dave is forced to not sign him. Ultimatelly that happened which was a great thing for us.

Never rated him and he was seriously overrated even for an English player. The likes of @jakec called him the best LB in Europe.

 

[Revan]

Nonsense he has been the best left back in England for a few years now. Add to that how much of a decline Evra has had and you are saying he's not good enough for united?

He has been the left back who crosses best in England for quite a few years now. He hasn't ever been the best left back (or near it) on EPL.

 

[Lawman]

There's a big difference between delivering goods at United and doing well with some random small EPL side. Fellaini is a clear example of that.

Devilish take your blinkers off, Baines has been performing at a level above Evra for at least 2 years now. He'd do very well at United no doubt in my mind.

 

[Lawman]

He has been the left back who crosses best in England for quite a few years now. He hasn't ever been the best left back (or near it) on EPL.

Defensively he's been better than Evra the last few years easily.

 

[Revan]

Defensively he's been better than Evra the last few years easily.

I doubt it. He played on a system that was build around him but that's it. An average player IMO, like I have been saying for years.

 

[JPRouve]

But again @devilish that is something that confuses me. You look at other teams in this WC and they are riddled with players who earn a living at second tier clubs in England, or in second tier leagues, and often in second tier clubs in second tier leagues. And yet they seem to raise their game when they play for their country.

I think that they lack of precision tactically and technically, english players are versatile, they can do a lot of things but they don't excel in one area.
And they are not really intelligent, the coaches are average they can't set a team for a specific mission.

 

[kouroux]

Somebody posted a complete document with stats and all that showed that it was a myth that Baines was better defensively than Evra.

 

[devilish]

Devilish take your blinkers off, Baines has been performing at a level above Evra for at least 2 years now. He'd do very well at United no doubt in my mind.

Same as Fellaini was doing great with us and Philip Neville, Gibson and Howard have done so well with Everton after leaving us.

 

[devilish]

To be fair his play and form for England was garbage in comparison to his United displays...the rest is just rationalising averageness from a class act.

Spot the difference

United manager: SAF
England Manager: Hoddle, Keegan, Mcclaren, Erikkson,

Role with united: MC
Role with england: MC then Gerrard and Lampard came in and Scholes was moved around.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

It should have been all 3 of them in the middle.

Unfortunatly 4-4-2 was still the English thing.

 

[devilish]

It should have been all 3 of them in the middle.

Unfortunatly 4-4-2 was still the English thing.

Lampard-Gerrard-Scholes would have never worked.

You see, England is not the first club to have 2-3 quality players in one position. However its usually common sense to distinguish between quality and QUALITY. You'll never see Italy putting Roberto Baggio on the flanks because they also had Zola and Di Canio. Unfortunately for the English manager some actually believed that Gerrard and Lampard where actually better then Paul Scholes.

 

[Boycott]

He began playing football at a local Liverpool primary school but, age 10, had trouble playing for a Sunday League team because he was shy.

Still suffers from this despite reaching the highest levels.

 

[shaggy]

He began playing football at a local Liverpool primary school but, age 10, had trouble playing for a Sunday League team because he was shy.

Still suffers from this despite reaching the highest levels.

Gotta question his mentality in not seeming at all bothered about joining us. Happy to plod along at Everton but not win trophies and play for one of the world's biggest clubs.

 

[RedStarUnited]

To be fair his play and form for England was garbage in comparison to his United displays...the rest is just rationalising averageness from a class act.

There is something not right with England if they couldn't get the best out of Scholes or Andy Cole. In truth that England team should have been built around the United players. We were the best and strongest English team around then.

 

[::sonny::]

A complete different player with England

Probably he has a lack of personality for these level

 

[saivet]

I thought he did okay last night. Not great, but I think there has been an overreaction in this thread.

 

[Kag]

It's just the way it is. Everton aren't a threat to the title or any sort of success, so they're considered a 'neutral' side in the league and everyone can look at their players strengths in a grossly hyperbolic manner but downplay their weaknesses. It's the same when people said Jagielka was/is better than Smalling or Jones.

Indeed. This sort of bullshit thinking is the reason you have so many rival supporters out there complaining that Hodgson should have selected the likes of Ryan Shawcross and Curtis Davies ahead of Smalling and Jones. It's mental.

Had Jagielka or Baines got a move to a big club, attitudes towards their abilities would have changed quite drastically. A good example of that is Fellaini, seeing as we are talking about Everton and their players. Hero to zero in less than a year, and his positives, of which there were many, ignored while people only search for negatives.

 

[James Redburn]

Baines and Jags are symptomatic of the diminishing numbers and quality of english players. As an everton fan I love them but taking the blue tinted glasses off quite clearly they are not top class.

But the question is who with an english passport is?

We've bought in skill such as Berkamp, Zola, Cantona, Gulitt, Henry, Ronaldo etc for over 20 yrs we haven't produced an english player anywhere near their levels. Arguably Hoddle 30 odd years ago would be in the frame but no chance Gascoine, Beckham and Rooney.

We breed journeymen in England and the best of them we think automatically equates to world class ... then come the tournaments and the truth dawns.

 

[BigDunc9]

Baines is quality he just lacks the personality to play for England.

 

[Sir A1ex]

We've bought in skill such as Berkamp, Zola, Cantona, Gulitt, Henry, Ronaldo etc for over 20 yrs we haven't produced an english player anywhere near their levels. Arguably Hoddle 30 odd years ago would be in the frame but no chance Gascoine, Beckham and Rooney.

Gazza was good enough, he was no journeyman. It was the journey he couldn't handle.

Also, Paul Scholes says hi.

 

[Zak Smith]

Theres a reason he still plays at Everton.

 

[James Redburn]

Gazza was good enough, he was no journeyman. It was the journey he couldn't handle.

Also, Paul Scholes says hi.

Very much a Utd view the Scholes thing you won't get many sharing the view outside OT. I'll give you Gazza for a year or 2 but after his leg break he went loopy.

 

[Catt]

We should be thankful Woodward tried to be clever last summer. He's a good player but for the age and price touted we can do better.

 

[peterstorey]

Gazza was good enough, he was no journeyman. It was the journey he couldn't handle.

Also, Paul Scholes says hi.

Cole, Seaman, Ferdinand were all world class too. Hoddle was overhyped, much like Beckham.

 

[DWelbz19]

Cole, Seaman, Ferdinand were all world class too. Hoddle was overhyped, much like Beckham.

Agreed. Cole is probably the best player to play for the national team. He, Ferdinand at his peak and Terry made one mean back four. Not that we ever made anything of it, of course.

 

[GloryHunter07]

glad we didn't fork out loads of cash for him, we need to think long term.