Leighton Baines

BD94 said:
I usually hate when people pull this line out, but in this case its true. If Baines was a foreigner playing for Malaga or Sevilla or someone like that, people would be well up for this signing.

If Evra does go, we probably wont be anle to do better than Baines, which is pretty damn good to be fair. Cole is considered world class, and Baines has been pushing him for the LB spot in the National team, so surely then Baines has to be there or thereabouts? Mayne not quite WC, but able to make that final step if he were to come here.
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Good point. Players improve in a better sides - and he's a very good player as it is.

The irony for me is that a lot of people dont know what they want. Apprently he's too expensive, but nalso not World Class. Presumably people therefore think they can get a better player for less money? Makes no sense - good players cost money, its as simple as that.
 
I think most Everton fans would accept a bid of £12 million if it meant we were able to get Luke Shaw, but that is never going to happen. It would probably be more wise for United to try and get Shaw than Baines if they're thinking long term, but maybe the reason for wanting Baines is that Evra has categorically told Moyes he wants to leave?
 
RedRover said:
Good point. Players improve in a better sides - and he's a very good player as it is.

The irony for me is that a lot of people dont know what they want. Apprently he's too expensive, but nalso not World Class. Presumably people therefore think they can get a better player for less money? Makes no sense - good players cost money, its as simple as that.
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Unless Evra wants to leave, or is severely fatigued I don't see too much wrong with him? He is 32, yes, but still producing the goods. If we have the money fair enough, but I think most people are a bit meh with the signing because they are so desperate for hte CM area to be fixed.
 
wonnie said:
Unless Evra wants to leave, or is severely fatigued I don't see too much wrong with him? He is 32, yes, but still producing the goods. If we have the money fair enough, but I think most people are a bit meh with the signing because they are so desperate for hte CM area to be fixed.
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There's nothing wrong with him - he's not the player he was but would probably do alright next season. Baines is though, a better player in my opinion, who could have a decent impact given his style of play. He's a reliable performer who deserves the chance to step up a level.

Add to this the fact that Moyes knows him well, and essentially helped develop him as a player and you can see why he thinks he'd be a good signing.

Moyes isnt daft, he'll be well aware of where he needs to stregthen the side and no doubt has a good idea of the player he'd like to sign. Anyone getting bent out of shape because they think a professional football cl;ub at any level, never mid the size of United, wouldn't think very carefully about their budget and prioritise what players need to be targetted with that in mind is frankly, an idiot.

If the club are making a bid, they clearly have the funds to do so and think its good business. They are not going to buy a left back and then realise they have no money left to buy the midfielder they've been in talks with for weeks. Its not Football Manager.
 
acnumber9 said:
Carrick has been much better than Gareth Barry over the last 7 years with half the caps. Comfortably better than Scott Parker too.
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Rozay said:
Well Parker hasn't been a regular for years, and when he was, Carrick was not considered 'comfortably better' than him. It isn't only Redcafe's views of predominantly United fans that counts. Parker was voted player of the year, and if I'm not mistaken, Carrick was out of favour and out of the team for quite a period then.

Also, believe it or not, many people outside the caf (myself not included) actually felt Barry was better than Carrick. He gets a lot of stick on here, but I reckon his 'unsung/unnoticed' work represents the exact hypocrisy of those who believe Carrick to be underrated, largely based on his unnoticed work. When Barry was leaving Villa and involved in a tug of war between Liverpool and City, the consensus in the country was not that Carrick was much better than him. Of course, most of us round these parts thought that, and naturally, we will think everyone else is crazy for not thinking so. That said, Carrick clearly wasn't better than Barry by enough of a margin for it to be un-contestable. Barry would not have been picked for England ahead of Lampard or Gerrard because there was no debate there.

Again, I'd like to re-iterate that I am a fan of Carrick, and personally think he is better than Barry, and he has also had an outstanding season (for the most part). I also have a good memory, and am fully aware the Carrick of this season has not been the same level of performance he has consistently given over the years. People are not mad, if that were the case, everyone wouldn't just decide he is great all of a sudden although he has been doing the same thing for 7 years.

He, himself, has a lot to do with the fact that he has not received the credit he gets now for a longer period. Every season he has generally had a few outstanding months and a few terrible ones. The same people speaking of the injustice were lamenting him during these terrible months. If you search the history of his threads over the past 7 years on here, it would be clear to you, even in the eyes of his own fans, that he hasn't always been that good. I mean the current thread on him in the MU forum started off talking about him being very shit for a while, and of course, ended with him being the best in the world! (exaggeration)
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psychdelicblues said:
All the poster stated was that Carrick was much better in the last 7 years then Gareth Barry and Scott Parker. Not exactly controversial. Poster never stated that Carrick's 7 years at the club have all been as outstanding as last season.

I'd say in Carrick's worse season at the club, has been at least on par with what Barry and Parker has offered in the past 7 seasons.

You seem to care a lot, what the rest of the country feels or the views outside Red Café regarding Carrick or the views of football journalists think of Carrick in relation to Barry and Parker, by pointing out that Parker won Players Writers Award, 2 years ago.


I very much doubt that they would say that Carrick has had terrible months in each of the first 6 seasons he has been at the club.
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Rozay said:
It's not a case of me 'caring a lot' what others think, but the fact is, we do have a tendency to dismiss any other view of our players on here (if they are not favourable). Not only we watch football. If everyone thinks Parker is better than Carrick, except Carrick's mum and dad, for example, it's worth considering that view may be true, as opposed to everyone else being idiots.

Personally, I think Carrick is better than Parker/Barry, but has not always been, or hasn't been consistently better over the years. Hence, I do not see any blatent injustice in the fact that he hasn't played more for his country. There is a debatable injustice, but not a blatent one. There is certainly a view to consider that he simply hasn't been better than these players.
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I never mentioned anything regarding why he has not been picked for his country. Considering Carrick has been an important component of a side , playing as usually as part of a midfield 2, and at the level he has been playing at and what United have won since he came to the club,I think on a United a forum there is nothing controversial or dismissive in saying that Carrick has been much better then Gareth Barry and Scott Parker in the last 7 years, despite the fact that Cappello and Hodgson preferred Barry or Parker won a PWA award. You stated that Carrick has had terrible month's in each of the 6 previous seasons at the club. You say that United fans should 'consider' the view that Barry and Parker have been better then Carrick in the last 7 years. I've considered it, and I remain of the view that Carrick on the whole has been better in the past 7 seasons then Barry and Parker despite what past or present England managers think or what football journalists choose to vote for, in any one year.
 
RedRover said:
There's nothing wrong with him - he's not the player he was but would probably do alright next season. Baines is though, a better player in my opinion, who could have a decent impact given his style of play. He's a reliable performer who deserves the chance to step up a level.

Add to this the fact that Moyes knows him well, and essentially helped develop him as a player and you can see why he thinks he'd be a good signing.

Moyes isnt daft, he'll be well aware of where he needs to stregthen the side and no doubt has a good idea of the player he'd like to sign. Anyone getting bent out of shape because they think a professional football cl;ub at any level, never mid the size of United, wouldn't think very carefully about their budget and prioritise what players need to be targetted with that in mind is frankly, an idiot.

If the club are making a bid, they clearly have the funds to do so and think its good business. They are not going to buy a left back and then realise they have no money left to buy the midfielder they've been in talks with for weeks. Its not Football Manager.
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It ain't. Should be pointed out more often. Good post.

I'd prefer to keep Evra on, be it said - and then gradually ease Fabio in at LB. But as others have suggested it might well be that Evra has decided it's time to move on - move back home, as it were. It's a fair move on his part, obviously - land one last contract and wind down in a less competitive league, etc.

Baines is a very decent replacement, no question about it. I'm just a wee bit worried about Fabio...
 
Baines is a very good player so his quality is not the issue but unless Evra is leaving it seems to be a pointless signing. I'd much rather keep Evra as well
 
akash02 said:
Baines is a very good player so his quality is not the issue but unless Evra is leaving it seems to be a pointless signing. I'd much rather keep Evra as well
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no smoke without fire I guess...Evra was probably thinking of France before this summer but due to the Ferguson factor didn't mind staying here...now that's gone it doesn't seem impossible that he'd want to go back, he's had a great carreer at United and won lots of trophies, and he's on the wrong side of 30.
I'd rather keep him as well myself mind you, but if the Baines rumours are true (which they very well seem to be) then I'm afraid Evra's on the way out.
 
We'd be in a lot of trouble if we start waiting for players to retire before replacing them. Neither Fabio or Buttner are good enough to be starters, so signing Baines makes perfect sense to me.
 
Goooose said:
We'd be in a lot of trouble if we start waiting for players to retire before replacing them. Neither Fabio or Buttner are good enough to be starters, so signing Baines makes perfect sense to me.
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Evra is 32, he's got a couple of years left in him I'd say and we could give Fabio plenty of game time in the same period as well.Nothing against Baines who as I said is a good player
 
Baines is a good player, but at 28 isn't exactly one for the future, and unless Evra is leaving I don't see how we need a left-back for now, making this a signing that i'm not really sure is necessary.

If Evra is leaving (of his own accord) then fine, Baines is a perfectly good replacement who I rate highly, but I'd personally prefer to keep Evra.
 
So we chop & change between Evra and Fabio for a couple of years until Fabio's ready? Evra got a lot of criticism from the Caf in the last couple years, but now that we want to sign a better LB everyone's changed their minds. Fabio is massively overrated on here as well. I know he's had trouble with injuries and playing time, but there's no guarantee that he'll be anywhere near as good as his brother.
 
If we do land Baines to me it basically means also the end of Fabio getting a chance to prove himself at the club. At least with Evra next season - there was the thinking that he could be used more to give Evra - someone who has played an incredible number of games over the last few years, a chance to rest during the season.

With Baines coming in - can't see much need for giving him a rest and also since it would be his first season would want to play him more to bed-in with the rest. Meaning overall less chances for Fabio (and Buttner).

Baines is good, under different circumstances would take him in a heartbeat for United. An argument could be made that he is better than Evra right now - even then it's not by much. I think we lose out more in the long run than gain with getting Baines in and moving Evra on at this point.
 
Goooose said:
So we chop & change between Evra and Fabio for a couple of years until Fabio's ready? Evra got a lot of criticism from the Caf in the last couple years, but now that we want to sign a better LB everyone's changed their minds. Fabio is massively overrated on here as well. I know he's had trouble with injuries and playing time, but there's no guarantee that he'll be anywhere near as good as his brother.
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This is full of sweeping generalisations. "everyone's changed their minds".

I'd rather not lose Evra, irrespective of who we were to bring in to replace him. He's just come off a superb season, is an absolute character, and his love for United is a joy to see. He's a proper United player, which goes further than just his performances on the pitch. And even they have been greatly improved recently. Yeah, he dipped a bit, but only from previously excellent standards. He's back on form now, and loves this club.

Why is it so bad that some people would rather not bring in another left-back if it meant losing the one we have if we're happy to have him here?
 
Goooose said:
So we chop & change between Evra and Fabio for a couple of years until Fabio's ready? Evra got a lot of criticism from the Caf in the last couple years, but now that we want to sign a better LB everyone's changed their minds. Fabio is massively overrated on here as well. I know he's had trouble with injuries and playing time, but there's no guarantee that he'll be anywhere near as good as his brother.
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I don't see a lot wrong with that. Unless Fabio plays we'll never know if he's good enough on the left, he's shown he's good enough for United on the right so might as well give him a shot on the left
 
The Neviller said:
Why is it so bad that some people would rather not bring in another left-back if it meant losing the one we have if we're happy to have him here?
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I like Evra as much as anyone but he's got to go some time so we might as well cash in on him. That doesn't sound very loyal, but United are at a stage now where anything could happen. I think wanting to keep Evra in the hope that Fabio might develop is incredibly naive when we've got the chance to buy the best LB in England. Baines isn't such a short-term sighting as a lot of people are suggesting. We'd get 3 seasons out of him before he'd be the age Evra is now, so I'd rather have him than an aging Evra.
 
For £20 millions, no. Evra is a very important part of the squad too, I would have liked to see Moyes try to keep him around at least. But who knows.
 
Goooose said:
I like Evra as much as anyone but he's got to go some time so we might as well cash in on him. That doesn't sound very loyal, but United are at a stage now where anything could happen. I think wanting to keep Evra in the hope that Fabio might develop is incredibly naive when we've got the chance to buy the best LB in England. Baines isn't such a short-term sighting as a lot of people are suggesting. We'd get 3 seasons out of him before he'd be the age Evra is now, so I'd rather have him than an aging Evra.
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Well, yes, to an extent I do agree. But the hope that Fabio might turn out to be as good as his brother isn't unrealistic, surely? He has the talent, what he needs is experience in the role. He might flop when it's all said and done, certainly. So may several of our young prospects - but you have to give 'em a chance to prove themselves. Baines' age is the problem: He is, as you rightly say, the best LB in the country (not by a country mile, but, yes - he is) and he's 28. He will be first choice for the position and he will most likely be used pretty much all the time during his first season. The timing is not ideal. The "easing in Fabio" scenario makes perfect sense with Evra - not with Baines.

I'm presupposing something here, of course: That Fabio has what it takes to surpass Baines as an LB. And that is obviously an X-factor at the moment. And I do agree, of course, that he isn't ready to step up right here and now. So if Evra wants to leave - well, it would make sense to buy Baines, even though it may hamper Fabio's long-term development.

I still say that the ideal scenario is that Evra stays and Fabio gets more and chances to prove himself at LB.
 
devilish said:
We're replacing one of the finest full backs in the world with a good left back who is just 3 years younger then him. Its basically like replacing Keane with Nicky Butt. Considering that we desperate need of some serious reinforcement in CM and that we're well stocked in left rear flank I dont think that such position should be given top priority.

Honestly I would have rather see us go for Luke Shaw instead. The young full back may not be as good as Baines (let alone Evra) yet but he's got age at his side.
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hahaha Evra is no longer one of the finest fullbacks he is solid. Baines is the better player.
 
Why are people assuming buying Baines is pushing Evra out though? Isn't it Evra who admitted himself that he was going to leave United a few years back, but Fergie convinced him to stay or something? It might be that with Fergie gone now, he's ready to move on.
 
To sum up Baines is better than Evra but not much younger so is he really worth the hassle/fee.

As leftback is not a 'problem' position for us fans won't be happy we are signing one before a winger or cm but I will say the quality of player we need in those positions are harder to acquire. Baines will give us immediate improvement at left back 18 million is over the odds but when do you ever really get value when a big club is buying from a small club in England? I'm happy with it I don't see the argument that he will not be able to step up he is the best left back in the country I think he will be good enough in Europe.
 
Baines is not that big of an improvement to Evra if at all. Defensively Baines is slightly better but going forward Evra suites us a lot more and is a much better dribbler
 
Goooose said:
I like Evra as much as anyone but he's got to go some time so we might as well cash in on him. That doesn't sound very loyal, but United are at a stage now where anything could happen. I think wanting to keep Evra in the hope that Fabio might develop is incredibly naive when we've got the chance to buy the best LB in England. Baines isn't such a short-term sighting as a lot of people are suggesting. We'd get 3 seasons out of him before he'd be the age Evra is now, so I'd rather have him than an aging Evra.
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Baines could still be playing at 34 for all we know. He seems a grounded guy who looks after himself, he also it has to be said, looks a more solid defender than Evra, and although the stats skew in Baines' favour on attacking play, I think a lot of that is that everton were set up to play through him and overall I would say there isnt much in it going forward.

As I see it, Paddy is on the slope downwards , Baines is still going up or perhaps at his peak , and is currently , and for the forseeable future, a better player. I'd also say that its another year gone, at some point Paddy wont play 60 games in a season , this is perhaps that point. Fabio isnt there yet as a replacement,so I'll take the guys who know the squads word on this one. If Moyes and his staff think we need Baines, we probably need him.
 
akash02 said:
Baines is not that big of an improvement to Evra if at all. Defensively Baines is slightly better but going forward Evra suites us a lot more and is a much better dribbler
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Baines has a (far) better cross, though, in fairness. I don't think there's much between them, actually. Evra is still a very good player when he wants to be. But here and now I think most would say Baines is the better LB. But there are plenty of other factors to consider. Lahm is a better RB than Rafael, but would it make sense to buy the little fecker?
 
Well he scored all of his penalties last season... thats better than Evra managed.
 
I'm not sure about the whole situation, to be honest. Evra had a very good season, his best season in the last three seasons (10/11, 11/12, and 12/13), but we need a replacement because he can't keep playing too many games. Buttner's arrival ensured that he worked harder, but the problem with Buttner is that he can't defend. He doesn't possess a good tackling technique and looks tentative. Fábio is my choice to replace Evra. He's more talented than Rafael IMO, and he displayed that he can take on big teams and produce great performances. This season, with QPR, in the 0-1 win at Stamford Bridge, he was immense. I think Baines is a better left back now than Evra and I understand why we would go for him, but if Evra doesn't leave, our options at left back: Baines, Evra, Buttner, and Fábio. I do not think it's the "end" of Fábio, though, as he is equally as impressive as a right back. In 10/11, he was very good against Arsenal and Barcelona, but I really want him to succeed as a left back.
 
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