That Modrić in front of them?
Leeds (dirty thugs) discussion
- Thread starter Samid
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Haha, suddenly everything is "par for the course" yet he was super shocked and outraged when Bielsa had someone watch his training? A thing that teams have been doing for decades and barely any ex-player was surprised by it. What a clown.
Must be a fun job. I'd rather transform football to numbers than what I'd do right now.
- It varies from club to club I’m sure. Do most clubs use an analytic department? Yes. Do I think it’s trusted by football managers and coaches? No.
- It matters. A lot. Leeds United were a shit side last season. Little has changed personnel wise yet they are performing incredibly well. Guardiola is known for being a control freak over every aspect of the game. Doesn’t matter as much as the ability of your players but it matters. I feel like England lagged behind in European terms mainly as we lacked such intelligence in our methodology compared with the Germans and Spanish. We had the best team in the world in 2006, but not the best coaches.
As I showed before though, our coaching staff didn’t even know what position James Wilson played, so you tell me if it’s commonplace or if it matters.
"Wilson in the hole?" Not sure if I was going to laugh or despair!
Read this and it's far below the level of detail Biesla went into. It basically observes that Shearer flicks onto Owen.
Biesla is crazy but in a good way. I hope Leeds get promoted.
He’s right. I’m sure that analysis is par for the course. Like I said a few times, the fawning reaction from journos is ridiculous. You’d think Bielsa had cracked nuclear fission.
As for being shocked about someone spying on their training. I can’t remember the police ever getting involved in something like this. So it really is unprecedented. Unless there’s another incident I’m forgetting about?
It’s also 13 years old. Fairly sure that was in the days when even assists weren’t published online. These days there’s an absolute shit ton more data, which even schmucks like us can find on t’internet. So stands to reason that analysis for professionals has got miles more complex.
Is there a full video of the conference anywhere? All I can find is clips and the transcript.
Well the police got involved because they were called by Derby. They did nothing in the end because, as pointed out before, the man did nothing wrong.
That’s neither here nor there. My point was that it’s a novel situation for a manager to get involved with. The police being called to deal with an employee of a rival club spying on his training session. Hence Lampard’s dealing with questions I’ve never heard any other football manager have to deal with.
So there’s nothing even remotely strange about him a) finding Bielsa’s analysis “par for the course” and b) being taken aback by what happened.
My point is, the situation is novel because Lempard and Derby made them that way. If I call he police because someone on my street is eating an apple citing "Neighborhood disturbance" or something, the situation didn't arise because the man was eating an apple but because I made the decision to call the police.
Lampard can't call the police and then be "taken aback by what happened" based on the police envolvement. A guy was watching their training session which happens all over the world, Fat Frank decided to cry about it, end off.
Lampard didn’t call the police.
Well Derby did. Derby = Lampard in that case as they represent each other.
He's overrated, unreliable, unprofessional, unstable, volatile.
Be careful, you will upset his band of worshippers.
This discussion about spying training is a bit irrelevant, tbh. There are little to no secrets about the opposition in a highly competitive and money oriented sport like modern football, and you can't really fully prepare a new offensive or defensive pattern within a week.
Bielsa is just being OCD levels of spying IMHO
Bielsa is just being OCD levels of spying IMHO
The most sensible take on this I've seen. I think some managers are far too precious about this. And the "par for the course" bit I thought was funny.
Sure, everyone has data analysts and scouts, but not everyone will personally get stuck into every minute detail. The guy is known for being a mad eccentric and this is one of the offshoots of that.
If you were preparing some really specific tactical plan that you wanted to keep secret, you'd not train it outdoors if you had a healthy level of paranoia which you'd do well to have given the stakes, media environment etc.
The TL;DR of this whole episode is a bit:
Bielsa spies on Derby.
Moral outrage ensues.
Holds press conference to show detail of planning.
UK Press is like "wow, there is planning!"
Caf is like "everyone plans, it's standard."
UK managers are like "we all do this, this is not special".
I think it's the personal hands on approach and obsessing about details that isn't "par for the course". Someone here said PL managers are competent by virtue of being PL managers. As if being appointed somehow proves that you are worthy. Makes no sense. Some are good, some are OK, some terrible and a few exceptional.
Bielsa is clearly a case of wanting to keep the hands on the dirty work, and he clearly thinks that his eyes can see details that others can't. In a lot of cases that might be true, I reckon, but the data analysis software nowadays is very advanced, and if the person who's doing the inputs understands very well the purpose of his job, there will be little error margin.
About preparing the secret tactic: the best you could do is preparing a different approach on set-pieces, because tactically speaking, the tactical training on offense and defense is based on patterns and templates:
players will learn how to react to a determined template / pattern as a unit and using different scenarios. you can't simply prepare your team to defend / attack a new pattern / template in 3/4 days, unless you manage a top club, who has super gifted players that will immediatly understand what the coach wants and will be able to execute the pattern in just a few atempts.
About the last sentence, tottally agree. Marco Silva wasn't that rated in Portugal and ended up being a EPL manager. Sometimes the appointments are totally out of the blue.
I'm sure Chelsea fans were surprised with Scolari appointment.
Why did Leeds owners formally apologise and say they would have a word with Bielsa about ethics?
Seems the only people to have a problem with it are Derby and the Leeds owner.
Seems the only people to have a problem with it are Derby and the Leeds owner.
Surely, that's just saving face..
True. But he does guarantee entertainment. I would never in a million years want Bielsa at United but he's definitely a character
Just in case anyones not seen this:
Boom.
Boom.
I'm sorry Bielsa is so overrated. The man who failed to go past group stage with Argentina and lost a copa america to 4th string Brazil. His only titles are the argentinean league 20 years ago.
"Of course we needed another alternative for the goalkeeper postion, the arrival of a goalkeeper like Casillas excludes any comet from my side. For him to choose Leeds is a succes for the institution. The responsable of this arrival is Victor Orta"
All the spies, scouts and player reports in the world, yet he somehow thinks they have signed Casillas
All the spies, scouts and player reports in the world, yet he somehow thinks they have signed Casillas
Boggles my mind that so many people in this thread actually believe that not every club in the top 3-4 leagues in England don't do this
I think all the clubs definitely do this level of opposition analysis. But, I really do not think every club send spies to opposition training sessions.
Oh absolutely, I was just talking about the video and research part
"Of course we needed another alternative for the goalkeeper postion, the arrival of a goalkeeper like Casillas excludes any comet from my side. For him to choose Leeds is a succes for the institution. The responsable of this arrival is Victor Orta"
All the spies, scouts and player reports in the world, yet he somehow thinks they have signed Casillas
Kiko Casilla, not Iker Casillas.
You'll all be wishing he was here soon 
That's kind of my point. He said Casillas in the part I quoted.
Of course it's developed as quickly as everything else in that realm but the need for human intelligence and knowing how to apply it and interpret it is still required. You can see in the Sunderland 'til I die docu-series what they do there, which appears quite minimal compared to Bielsa. Anyone can have the same software, but expertise and competence is a spectrum, it's not just a binary yes or no, or a full on AI.
With regards to the secret tactic, spot on. Which makes it even more pointless to be complaining about someone looking at your training. You really should expect that.
I don't think anyone would have expected Leeds to be doing as well as they are. The people here who are saying Bielsa is an overrated manager have no idea. Never coached in England and look where they are now and how they play.
And is Bielsa good, ok, terrible or exceptional?
I imagine every manage doesn't go into this sort of detail I'm pretty sure plenty go into as much detail as they need to be effective. I also think that competence is found throughout top level management (not everybody but it's fairly commonplace) just like you'd expect the top 50 tennis players to be competent. Let's not assume someone who doesn't draw up excel sheet isn't competent.
It's also interesting how the people in your TLDR version who come across badly are the media, fans and British manager with Bielsa the intellectual hero of this tale I presume.
My view is limited to feeling there's been a rather over the top hoopla over both the spying and Bielsa himself.
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In tennis you can only rely on yourself really. You can be a bit of a clueless manager, or very very limited, and have a coaching setup around you and individual talent that gets you over the line (mind, not achieve any significant success).
The UK angle you mentioned in my post is maybe there because of people like Glenn Roeder, Tim Sherwood, Alan Pardew and the sort. People I think disprove the theory that because you are in charge of a PL club you are somehow competent. After all, the people who appoint you have to be competent too. Which of course is not always the case, and again, is a spectrum from low to high.
I think he's hilarious. Love that he didn't give a shit.
Well of course not every appointment is competent. That would be silly. But plenty are. To be a competent PL manager is not an anomaly.
You didn't answer though - which category does Bielsa fall in? I'm sure he's influential but why on earth has all this competence landed him at the lofty heights of Leeds United?