Lance Armstrong to be charged with doping offences - Washington Post

fecking fraud - but it does prove one thing true once again.

If something seems too good to be true....

absolutely no signs of contrition, and nothing remotely close to an apology - of course someone will tell me, his lawyers told him not to. But he ruined lives and now wants us to feel sorry for him?

feck him and his apologists.
 
He did say sorry a few times in fairness and I think there were some signs of contrition, it's just whether you believe they were genuine.

In fairness, you could tell that he was hating every minute of it and he was upset with getting caught rather than with himself.
 
He did say sorry a few times in fairness and I think there were some signs of contrition, it's just whether you believe they were genuine.

In fairness, you could tell that he was hating every minute of it and he was upset with getting caught rather than with himself.

Sorry meant apology or those he humiliated, hounded, bullied and sued.

He only sounded genuine when he spoke about the $75mil lost in sponsorship...

Lance Armstrong wasn't a personal hero(though I definitely bought his story and his book :mad:) but he had a moral duty to reach out to people like Greg Lemond and others - sure he didn't kill anyone, and he wasn't a serial murderer, but he destroyed livelihoods.

I don't want that cheat rehabilitated until he pays penance for that.

Oh and I thought Oprah was fine in part 1, but part 2, she did poorly, thought she tried too hard to push start the 'disgraced star makes amends and wins all our hearts again' angle.

'Will you rise again...' I fecking hope not.
 
American sports fans should all know Rick Reilly - for non Americans, he's an award winning writer, and regular ESPN.com contributor

Commentary
It's all about the lies
Originally Published: January 17, 2013
By Rick Reilly | ESPN.com

0
0
Email
Print

Lance Armstrong George Burns/Oprah Winfrey Network/Getty ImagesLance Armstrong's one conversation with Oprah Winfrey will be vastly different than every other media interview he has ever given.

Among my emails Wednesday morning, out of the blue, was one from Lance Armstrong.

Riles, I'm sorry.

All I can say for now but also the most heartfelt thing too. Two very important words.

L

And my first thought was ... "Two words? That's it?"

Two words? For 14 years of defending a man? And in the end, being made to look like a chump?

Wrote it, said it, tweeted it: "He's clean." Put it in columns, said it on radio, said it on TV. Staked my reputation on it.

"Never failed a drug test," I'd always point out. "Most tested athlete in the world. Tested maybe 500 times. Never flunked one."

Why? Because Armstrong always told me he was clean.

On the record. Off the record. Every kind of record. In Colorado. In Texas. In France. On team buses. In cars. On cell phones.

I'd sit there with him, in some Tour de France hotel room while he was getting his daily postrace massage. And we'd talk through the hole in the table about how he stared down this guy or that guy, how he'd fooled Jan Ullrich on the torturous Alpe d'Huez into thinking he was gassed and then suddenly sprinted away to win. How he ordered chase packs from the center of the peloton and reeled in all the pretenders.

And then I'd bring up whatever latest charge was levied against him. "There's this former teammate who says he heard you tell doctors you doped." "There's this former assistant back in Austin who says you cheated." "There's this assistant they say they caught disposing of your drug paraphernalia."

And every time -- every single time -- he'd push himself up on his elbows and his face would be red and he'd stare at me like I'd just shot his dog and give me some very well-delivered explanation involving a few dozen F words, a painting of the accuser as a wronged employee seeking revenge, and how lawsuits were forthcoming.

And when my own reporting would produce no proof, I'd be convinced. I'd go out there and continue polishing a legend that turned out to be plated in fool's gold.

Even after he retired, the hits just kept coming. A London Times report. A Daniel Coyne book. A U.S. federal investigation. All liars and thieves, he'd snarl.

I remember one time we talked on the phone for half an hour, all off the record, at his insistence, and I asked him three times, "Just tell me. Straight up. Did you do any of this stuff?"

"No! I didn't do s---!"

And the whole time he was lying. Right in my earpiece. Knowing that I'd hang up and go back out there and spread the fertilizer around some more.

And now, just like that, it's all flipped. Thursday and Friday night we'll see him look right into the face of Oprah Winfrey and tell her just the opposite. He'll tell her, she says, that he doped to win.

[+] EnlargeLance Armstrong, Oprah Winfrey
George Burns/Oprah Winfrey Network/Getty ImagesArmstrong discusses his cycling career with Oprah Winfrey on Monday January 14, 2013.
I get it. He's ruined. He's lost every single sponsor. Nearly every close teammate has turned on him. All seven Tour de France titles have been stripped. He could owe millions. He might be in a hot kettle with the feds. Even the future he planned for himself -- triathlons and mountain biking -- have been snatched away. He's banned from those for life.

So I get it. The road to redemption goes through Oprah, where he'll finally say those two very important words, "I'm sorry," and hope the USADA will cut the ban from lifetime to the minimum eight years.

But here's the thing. When he says he's sorry now, how do we know he's not still lying? How do we know it's not just another great performance by the all-time leader in them?

And I guess I should let it go, but I keep thinking how hard he used me. Made me look like a sap. Made me carry his dirty water and I didn't even know it.

Look, I've been fooled before. I believed Mark McGwire was hitting those home runs all on his own natural gifts. I believed Joe Paterno couldn't possibly cover up something so grisly as child molestation. I bought Manti Te'o's girlfriend story. But those people never looked me square in the pupils and spit.

It's partially my fault. I let myself admire him. Let myself admire what he'd done with his life, admire the way he'd not only beaten his own cancer but was trying to help others beat it. When my sister was diagnosed, she read his book and got inspired. And I felt some pride in that. I let it get personal. And now I know he was living a lie and I was helping him live it.

I didn't realize that behind those blues was a bully, a coercer, a man who threatened people who once worked for and with him. The Andreus. Emma O'Reilly. Tyler Hamilton. Armstrong was strong-arming people in the morning, and filing lawsuits and op-ed pieces in the afternoon. We'd talk and his voice would get furious. And I'd believe him.

And all along, the whole time, he was acting, just like he had with Ullrich that day. So now the chase pack has reeled in Lance Armstrong, and he is busted and he's apologizing to those he conned.

I guess I should forgive him. I guess I should give him credit for putting himself through worldwide shame. I guess I should thank him for finally admitting his whole magnificent castle was built on sand and syringes and suckers like me. But I'm not quite ready. Give me 14 years, maybe.

You're sorry, Lance? No, I'm the one who's sorry.
 
American sports fans should all know Rick Reilly - for non Americans, he's an award winning writer, and regular ESPN.com contributor

That's a good article.

Here's one from Manzano whose whistleblowing attempt was one of the triggers for Operation Puerto.

http://www.as.com/english/articulo/manzano-armstrong-laughed-in-the/20130118dasdenspo_12/Ten

Manzano: "Armstrong laughed in the face of the whole world"

Former cyclist Jesús Manzano sat down with AS to chat about Lance Armstrong's confession. "Now it turns out that he is the liar, not me", he said.


JUAN GUTIÉRREZ | 18/01/2013
Nine years ago, Jesús Manzano stunned the sport world when he revealed the extent of doping within his cycling team in an interview with AS. The former cyclist spoke to us again on Friday and gave his thoughts on Lance Armstrong who has publicly confessed that he took performance-enhancing drugs during his seven Tour de France triumphs.

Did you watch Oprah Witney's interview with Lance Armstrong?


Look, I am going to be completely honest with you. I didn't watch it, nor did I feel like watching it. I have been told a few details and I have read bits and pieces in the newspapers but I have no desire to listen to Armstrong. I knew what was going on a long time ago so it will be hard for someone like him to surprise me.

What did you make of his doping admission?

The first thing that I thought of was the moment when he claimed I was mad and a liar... Now it turns out that the liar and the mad one is him, not me.

Armstrong also said that you made those declarations to AS for revenge and for financial gain?

Now that we are on the subject of money, I hope he returns all of the money he has made. He mocked an entire country... and not just a country, he laughed in the face of the whole world because he was universally acclaimed.

Why do you think that Armstrong defended his secret so fiercely?

He lied for money... Whilst laughing at the United States, France and Germany... What credibility does the Tour de France have now as a race? And what kind of credibility does the UCI have? It's also important to clarify whether the money actually helped him to cover up what he was doing because at the end of the day, the competition is only for those with money. Did you hear what Djokovic had to say?

Yes, Nole said that Armstrong is "a disgrace and should suffer for his lies".

How can Djokovic say that? As if he doesn't know what goes on. So there is no doping in tennis then? Are they trying to suggest that when there is a ball involved, there is no doping going on?

Armstrong justified taking performance-enhancing drugs because it was "the thing to do" in that generation and said that only five cyclists never took banned substances during that period.

During my time in sport, I only knew one person who wasn't involved in doping. That was Juanmi Cuenca. He didn't do it because he had a vein narrowing condition. Oh! And Santi Blanco too - he was clean.

Nine years after your statement, Armstrong decides to start talking about widespread doping...

That's right... but he's left it a little bit late don't you think?

How do you feel now that time has proved that you were right all along? Anger? Shame? Pride? A feeling of liberation?

I just feel that it's disgraceful that some people have taken Cycling to these depths - where it remains to this day. Quietly, I feel happy that the sponsors have turned their backs on cycling because that is what it deserves - they have never tried to clean out all the doping, they just carried on milking the cow. The other day a director told me that not much has changed since then. Will these people ever learn?

After the Armstrong case, Cycling must either change or die a death.

No, no, I really hope not. Just like Armstrong spent so many years lying, many others are still doing so. Then they start whinging that Cycling is always being attacked. Why don't they tell the truth now? Do you know why? Because in Cycling you learn to lie about everything, it's the first thing they teach you.

Do you see any solution to this at all?

To fix the problems, the people in charge must be replaced by new people. What don't they name Javier Mínguez as president of the Federation? Or Santi Blanco? It's always the same old faces.

Have you any other suggestions to improve things?

The law needs to be changed so that doping offenders face prison. That will put an end to doping.

Don't you think that a prison sentence is a bit excessive?

For someone who cheated others out of millions of euros? What kind of punishment do those who do that get?

But with people such as yourself speaking out against doping, surely we must have some hope for the future?

I am pleased that since I spoke out in 2004, at last, in 2013, a judge is going to listen to what I have to say. Let's see if they can finally get to the bottom of all of this. I am not afraid of a showdown - with Vicente Belda for example. But I am not hoping for too much, I am not going to deceive anyone.
 
I guess I am not the only one watching... :cool:

The question is - can you judge somebody that just did what everybody did - only that he might have done it to a bigger extent.

He was not the first one. His first Tour de France win came in 99, or? Pantani in 98 was sure doped and that guy of the Netherlands in 97, too? I do not know if Jan Ullrich already started that early - or only later when he remarked that everybody did - he never told...

Not many experts believe the podium in Oslo in 93 was clean and Betsy Andreu and the hospital room was in 96. If steroids and GH and Lord knows what else caused or contributed to his cancer, which sadly isn't unlikely, then you'd think he must have been at it for some time.
 
That's a good article.

Here's one from Manzano whose whistleblowing attempt was one of the triggers for Operation Puerto.

http://www.as.com/english/articulo/manzano-armstrong-laughed-in-the/20130118dasdenspo_12/Ten

Armstrong also said that you made those declarations to AS for revenge and for financial gain?

Now that we are on the subject of money, I hope he returns all of the money he has made. He mocked an entire country... and not just a country, he laughed in the face of the whole world because he was universally acclaimed


He he he nice deflection. As for doping I wonder how rife it is in football, one can't but feel us football fans are very naive.
 

There have been whispers around the Spanish game in recent years, including Barcelona. I think that Barca have employed one of Armstrong's dopers in some capacity, maybe someone could clarify that for me?

I remember that the Mourinho era Chelsea had some curious medical practices too, one was called 'blood spinning' where they took blood from players, did something to it and then injected it back in them, with the stated aim of improving injury recovery time.

There will be dopers in football, no question, and as that article suggests, I bet that some of it goes on without the players knowing. EPO would be beneficial for footballers, it would increase the intensity and capacity of their work rate.
 
Yeah, there have been rumors of one of Lance's most notorious doping docs, Luis Garcia del Moral, doing some work for Barca and Valencia.
 
There have been whispers around the Spanish game in recent years, including Barcelona. I think that Barca have employed one of Armstrong's dopers in some capacity, maybe someone could clarify that for me?

I remember that the Mourinho era Chelsea had some curious medical practices too, one was called 'blood spinning' where they took blood from players, did something to it and then injected it back in them, with the stated aim of improving injury recovery time.

There will be dopers in football, no question, and as that article suggests, I bet that some of it goes on without the players knowing. EPO would be beneficial for footballers, it would increase the intensity and capacity of their work rate.

Spain is meant to be the home of doping. Perhaps one day someone will blow the whistle and all us football fans we be collectively shocked. Didn't Eufemiano Fuentes threaten to expose the extensive use of banned substances in football? I read somewhere that Wenger was shocked at the amount of red blood cells in some of the players that he'd bought from the continent, which obviously suggests EPO. It's not a new thing though, nandrolene use was rife in the Serie A, and players were caught, yet it didn't trigger a thorough investigation by the game's custodians.
 
I read that yesterday. It's an interesting summary.

It's probably worth splitting the discussion out and starting a thread in the football forum.

Go for it.

Apparently, OM players received injections prior to the CL final.
 
I've seen interviews this morning from Betsy Andreu in which she is still angry at him for not coming clean, now forgive me if i'm wrong, as i havent seen the whole interview, but hasn't he come clean and rang and apologised to her?

Also don't really get what this whole i called her a crazy bitch but not fat has to do with him doping?
 
I'm not religious but I'm a firm believer that everyone should have a chance for forgiveness.
 
I've seen interviews this morning from Betsy Andreu in which she is still angry at him for not coming clean, now forgive me if i'm wrong, as i havent seen the whole interview, but hasn't he come clean and rang and apologised to her?

Also don't really get what this whole i called her a crazy bitch but not fat has to do with him doping?
It was in reference to how he justified defending himself when doping. If people accused him of 5 things, 4 of which were true and 1 that wasn't, he'd immediately go on the defensive and threaten lawsuits etc. He would latch on to the bit that wasn't true.

As for the second part, having just seen it I think Oprah did alright. I liked how she kept pushing him for an answer to what he exactly told his son.

Still, I see the man as a pathological liar.
 
I'm not religious but I'm a firm believer that everyone should have a chance for forgiveness.

He had his chances but he kept lying. For years he fooled everyone involved and took them for a ride. Whether he did or did not have cancer should not even come into the discussion. Lance earned his fame and money by cheating not by being a great cancer survivor. He might have used his position to bring some help but he had ulterior motives. He was using cancer as a shield. Imo, this should be considered even a bigger sin and should not absolve him of anything. At the end of the day, he is a scum.
 
He had his chances but he kept lying. For years he fooled everyone involved and took them for a ride. Whether he did or did not have cancer should not even come into the discussion. Lance earned his fame and money by cheating not by being a great cancer survivor. He might have used his position to bring some help but he had ulterior motives. He was using cancer as a shield. Imo, this should be considered even a bigger sin and should not absolve him of anything. At the end of the day, he is a scum.

Very possibly. but all we can do is guess if he is genuinely apologetic or not and his reasons etc. For most it will be impossible to forgive him because of his narcissistic character and rightly so. Time will tell I suppose.
 
Very possibly. but all we can do is guess if he is genuinely apologetic or not and his reasons etc. For most it will be impossible to forgive him because of his narcissistic character and rightly so. Time will tell I suppose.

There is no harm in forgiving someone if he commits the same mistake once, may be even twice or thrice. But for more than a decade? On his last Oprah interview, he vehemently denied the charges and projected himself as a victim. Now that his game was up, he decides to "come clean".

I say, feck you, Lance.
 
I find it to be quite amusing to see so many people, with previous little or no interest in Armstrong and cycling in general, getting so riled up.
 
I find it to be quite amusing to see so many people, with previous little or no interest in Armstrong and cycling in general, getting so riled up.

I think deception, lies, manipulation, bullying, profiteering, crass arrogance and ruination of those who tried to tell the truth transcends any particular sport.

For the poster above, he didn't specifically apologise to Andreu and wouldn't be drawn about the conversation with the doctors, so he didn't exactly "come clean". He was more interested in making a point of how he didn't actually call her "fat", even though that was not even the tip of the iceberg of the damage that he did to her.

"I won't acknowledge or specifically apologise for any of the things I said about her or did to her, but look! Look! I didn't call her fat!"

The grimace when he was asked to apologised to the Times reporter was also insightful.
 
Very possibly. but all we can do is guess if he is genuinely apologetic or not and his reasons etc. For most it will be impossible to forgive him because of his narcissistic character and rightly so. Time will tell I suppose.

He claimed in the interview that he did't dope during his comeback, yet his biological passport tell a very different story. He is still lying.
 
There have been whispers around the Spanish game in recent years, including Barcelona. I think that Barca have employed one of Armstrong's dopers in some capacity, maybe someone could clarify that for me?

I remember that the Mourinho era Chelsea had some curious medical practices too, one was called 'blood spinning' where they took blood from players, did something to it and then injected it back in them, with the stated aim of improving injury recovery time.

There will be dopers in football, no question, and as that article suggests, I bet that some of it goes on without the players knowing. EPO would be beneficial for footballers, it would increase the intensity and capacity of their work rate.

What are the rules surrounding blood transfusions and the like in football? Are they outlawed, or is it just something that would be seen as unethical if uncovered?
 
There have been whispers around the Spanish game in recent years, including Barcelona. I think that Barca have employed one of Armstrong's dopers in some capacity, maybe someone could clarify that for me?

I remember that the Mourinho era Chelsea had some curious medical practices too, one was called 'blood spinning' where they took blood from players, did something to it and then injected it back in them, with the stated aim of improving injury recovery time.

That's a form of blood doping. You don't necessarily have to use epo, but the spinning oxygenates the red blood sells 'effectively freshening them up', while doing so, the players would regenerate the red blood cells in their body. When it comes time, the blood that's been oxygenated, is put back into the body boosting red blood cell counts which allows for more oxygen in the blood stream to help with stamina and recuperation.

Extremely dangerous though as the body is designed to only have the 4.5 litres of blood, not 5 or 5.5. Places alot of pressure on arteries etc.
 
Blood spinning doesn't increase the amount of blood in the body and it isn't a form of blood doping. It is a method of increasing the speed of wound healing and one that isn't exactly legal or illegal in most sports but may well become legal as it isn't a performance enhancer if they can get around the hormones that this introduces into the wound.
 
Blood spinning doesn't increase the amount of blood in the body and it isn't a form of blood doping. It is a method of increasing the speed of wound healing and one that isn't exactly legal or illegal in most sports but may well become legal as it isn't a performance enhancer if they can get around the hormones that this introduces into the wound.
MY mistake in calling it blood doping, they have a phrase for it 'not just tranfusion' which I couldn't remember. Regardless though they take this blood out, spin it and inject it back into athletes that have already replaced the blood naturally in their body. IT is a method of increasing redblood cells in the body to carry more oxygen to the muscles.
 
Just watched both parts of the interview and like many of said how can you actually believe him now even if he is saying the truth given his history? Also I could still see his arrogant, rude-like behavior EVEN NOW. I know its hard to change your character 41 years into your life, but at least try for the sake of what you have done and the people you have hurt.
 
Seriously, did people believe that Cyclists didn't dope?
 
Correct, and I am still amused. There are people out there who has done worse, including people in our own club. We haven't hanged them to this degree.
Disclaimer: Not saying that I think that Lance was right to do all he has done, just need to get this in. Never know with some people.. Saying that the way he has been publicly treated compared to others has been a disgrace.

But the sadest thing is to see so many people turning their backs on the foundation. That makes no sense, since it has severed it's ties with Lance. I'll still continue to wear whatever LiveStrong gear I have, and I expect to be scowled at in the near future :lol:

Which people at our club have done something worse than what Armstrong has done?
 
Seriously, did people believe that Cyclists didn't dope?

Some obviously do but riding through France for 3 weeks doing around 3.500KM with a 42KMH average in the glory days isn't done on pasta. Not sure which year it was but it had the hill time trial on Alp d´Huez where your Armstongs, Ulrichs and the like did it in around 15 minutes, the shop where I buy my bikes knew people who were there earlier in the day who rode up it they needed around an hour despite going for it and were amateurs who race on a C licence here in Germany that the profis are quicker is expected but 45 minutes quicker does make you wonder.
 
People have the strangest ideas regarding what constitutes a 'winner' these days...
 
Rooney sleeping around with prostitutes at hotels while his pregnant wife was sat at home? Ryan Giggs sleeping with his brothers wife for years? We still sing the songs and cheer them on.

And how do you know the nature of their relationships? This is getting absurd really, even his fans are scraping....
 
Some obviously do but riding through France for 3 weeks doing around 3.500KM with a 42KMH average in the glory days isn't done on pasta. Not sure which year it was but it had the hill time trial on Alp d´Huez where your Armstongs, Ulrichs and the like did it in around 15 minutes, the shop where I buy my bikes knew people who were there earlier in the day who rode up it they needed around an hour despite going for it and were amateurs who race on a C licence here in Germany that the profis are quicker is expected but 45 minutes quicker does make you wonder.

Yep, Elite level sport and particularly some sports over others has become a case of who doesn't get caught and does the best while not getting caught rather than a case of dopers being the exception. And it's a disgrace which is especially prevalent in sports which require more physical exertion and less of natural skill.

As much as i like to be a optimist and see glass half full, records aren't getting halved in 10/20 years for no reason and only a part of it can be attributed to improved training regimes.
 
Rooney sleeping around with prostitutes at hotels while his pregnant wife was sat at home? Ryan Giggs sleeping with his brothers wife for years? We still sing the songs and cheer them on.

Wut ? :lol: