Lance Armstrong to be charged with doping offences - Washington Post

fishfingers15 said:
Interesting to compare him with Maradona. Although the argie didn't force the entire team to take drugs or EPO's
Click to expand...

Maradona wasn't taking cocaine to perform better which we can't even compare him, maybe the well organized scheme he had with the sports in Spain which are covered up by Spain's government.
 
bazalini said:
He deserves no sympathy as regards what he did to the sport of cycling. But outside sport his work with Cancer charities has been excellent and honorable, his first autobiography brought strength and belief to many sufferers and in my own case was a source of much inspiration when someone very close suffered and passed away from Cancer.

you can take his TDF medals away from him, but you can never take away what he did to help cancer sufferers and those surrounded by the condition.

I'll leave it at that Colin. I'm sure Armstrong has his own demons to fights - let him do that
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone would dispute that. I do, however, dispute the claim that beating cancer in itself defines you as a person.
 
newbie posted this, dont know what the source was or if its been posted before

On Sept. 23, 2005 I participated in an event where Lance Armstrong came to Banff, Alberta, Canada to promote his foundation. There were two scheduled rides with contributors each who paid $ 35,000 (yes the amount is correct and not an error) to ride with Armstrong from Banff to The Columbia Icefields north of Lake Louise, AB. Following the ride, all participants including Armstrong were returned to Lake Louise by private luxury motorcoaches. I drove one of those coaches. Approximately 50 participants (riders/contributors) were involved in the event. While I drove to the pickup location where the ride was to end I passed the entire group including Armstrong and his "people". Armstrong was several miles ahead of the entire group of rider/contributors and appeared not to have any concern for their inability to maintain his pace. I thought that strange given that so many participants had paid so much money to ride with him, not several miles behind him. Upon reaching the pickup location I waited with my coach for the arrival of the group. Armstrong of course arrived first, literally throwing his bike to the ground and running to the other bus being used to shuttle him and participants back to Lake Louise. 20-30 minutes later the main body of riders arrived and shortly thereafter it became apparent that a group photo opportunity was being sought by the group as a whole. Armstrong finally emerged from the bus appearing agitated and annoyed by his requirement to be in the photo. Immediately following a very very brief photo shoot he "ran" back to the bus however was intercepted enroute by a lady with her small daughter. I was directly beside the woman and heard her ask "Mr. Armstrong would you mind if I took a picture of you with my daughter" Armstrong failed to respond however stopped to allow the photo and never uttered a sound to the young girl staring up at him. He then again raced to the bus and re-boarded for the 1.5 hour journey to Lake Louise. The group of participants split up with half on each of the motor coaches. I had approximately 25 people and throughout the entire ride all everyone spoke of was the unbelievable arrogance and ignorance of Armstrong. 3-4 people congregated around the driver area of the bus and engaged me in conversation. Several stated they wouldn't ride on the same bus with Armstrong even if it were the only available option. I then learned that many of the participants were extremely angered by their discovery that while each had paid $ 35,000 for their ability to ride with Armstrong they were only being provided with tax receipts for their contribution in the amount of $ 25,000. They had learned that only that amount was provided to the foundation and that $ 10,000 from each participant went directly "into Armstrong's jeans". I was stunned to learn this and later asked several other riders after the return to Lake Louise if they were aware they were only to receive a $ 25,000 receipt. All replied affirmatively and all I spoke with were disgusted at the discovery that so much went directly to Armstrong. Doing the math, he personally received $500,000 for going on a 3 hour ride where he really didn't even interact with the contributing riders. The ride was repeated the following day with another 50 different rider/contributors on a ride from Lake Louise to Canmore, Alberta. Although I did not participate in the transportion the following day I assume the same formula applied meaning that Armstrong had a million dollar weekend with only a little over 70% of the contributions going to the foundation. I applaude Armstrong for his efforts and contribution to the search for a cure to cancer however I believe it is unknown to most in the world how much he really personally makes for his efforts. While his involvement may be extensive it is certainly well paid. In closing, I wanted to add that my personal opinion is that I am skeptical as to whether Armstrong ever really was a cancer victim/survivor or whether this was another of his scams to fool the world, his followers and those suffering from the disease. While the foundation does incredible work their founder may be a fraud but for the ultimate goal the money is needed no matter what the source. I proudly wore a LIVESTRONG arm band for many years however cut it from my wrist after witnessing and learning of the Armstrong's attitude towards contributors and his lack of disclosure to and misconceptions sold to contributors of his iniatives. I am attaching a photo taken with the group moments after Armstrong's handlers pried him off the bus for the photo. I would be happy to discuss my experience with anyone should they require further information. Garry LEACH
Click to expand...
 
In closing, I wanted to add that my personal opinion is that I am skeptical as to whether Armstrong ever really was a cancer victim/survivor or whether this was another of his scams to fool the world, his followers and those suffering from the disease.
Click to expand...

Classy. No better than what we read over on RAWK IMO and makes me question the truth of the story.
 
bazalini said:
I put beating cancer above Sport. Lance Armstrong no matter what way you look at it beat Cancer. He was given low odds by professional medics and survived. For me he is a winner, legion, role model and also a cheat at sport.

Once you realise that health is more important to sport in life - you soon realise that the true character of any human is built around facing death and fighting it. Armstrong beat cancer when it was knocking on his door and deserves to be credited for that. No one can take that away from him and no amount of sporting acculades can take that away from him
Click to expand...

If people who beat cancer are winners and role models, how do you judge those who don't beat the illness?
 
MrMojo said:
If people who beat cancer are winners and role models, how do you judge those who don't beat the illness?
Click to expand...

Well if they were like my Mother or others who I have seen lose their battle with Cancer I would view them as Saints and certainly braver in their hour then I would ever be. You can call them what you want - My mother was a role model, kind hearted, brave and passionate right to the end.

When you meet someone given a date to leave this world, being caught up with trivia like sport or news comes well down the list. Lance Armstrong's autobiography is an inspiration and I judge him on his attitude when dealing with cancer, rather then uses drugs in a sport which rife with drugs.
 
bazalini said:
Well if they were like my Mother or others who I have seen lose their battle with Cancer I would view them as Saints and certainly braver in their hour then I would ever be.
Click to expand...

You view Armstrong as a winner though because he beat cancer, are the people who ultimately die also winners?
 
TheRisingSun said:
Hemocrit.jpg


This is a graph from his blood passport from the Giro D'Italia and the TdF of 2009. The hematocrit levels of the blood are the percentage of oxygen carrying cells and are used to measure EPO use. Note the spikes in hematocrit levels at the end of the TDF compared with the natural decline in the Italian race - suggestive of EPO use. I conclude that he was lying through his teeth -again - even as he professed to be baring his soul.
Click to expand...

That's interesting, I wonder if that graph is also consistent with a transfusion. Normally red cells have a life expectancy of around 90 days, transfused cells have a life expectancy of roughly half to a third of that time. Is it normal for the HCt to fall over the course of a race like it did during the Giro? Or, is that fall more consistent with the death of transfused red blood cells?
 
MrMojo said:
You view Armstrong as a winner though because he beat cancer, are the people who ultimately die also winners?
Click to expand...

You get someone close to you and see them suffer with cancer. See their veins go rock hard with chemo, see them suffer, see them collasping in front of you, see the look on their face when they have to go in and hear results of their chemo, pick up the courage to say goodbye to their grandkids, kiss their children goodbye or simply tell their husband/wife they will not be there for them in the morning/week/month

U can call them what they are, u can be smart as you like. To me they are winners and Armstrong gave my mother much calmness and support during her tenure with the illness.
 
golden_blunder said:
newbie posted this, dont know what the source was or if its been posted before
Click to expand...

"After this iReport was posted, CNN received a statement from Calgary energy executive John Dielwart, one of the tour organizers, refuting many of the iReporter's claims.

With regard to participants not receiving a tax receipt for their entire donation, Dielwart said, 'that had nothing to do with Lance. The tax rules do not allow receipts to be issued for the entire donation amount if tangible benefits were received by the donor. Events like this do not occur for free. Every rider received rider kits which included cycling gear and other gifts. The breakfasts and dinner are tangible benefits. Finally, the costs of supporting the ride with aid stations, medical personnel, transportation, etc. are also deemed to be benefits. The Tour of Courage Society determined that under the Revenus Canada guidelines, only $25,000 of the $35,000 donation qualified for a tax receipt. Every rider was informed about this in advance and did not have to participate if they didn't like those terms. To suggest Lance pocketed the balance as Mr. Leach does is ridiculous.'

http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-860283
 
bazalini said:
You get someone close to you and see them suffer with cancer. See their veins go rock hard with chemo, see them suffer, see them collasping in front of you, see the look on their face when they have to go in and hear results of their chemo.

U call them what they are, u can be smart as you like. To me they are winners and Armstrong gave my mother much calmness and support during her tenure with the illness.
Click to expand...

Why am I being smart, it's a simple question, are people who die from cancer winners like those who beat cancer?

If you don't want to answer I understand. My point is that you should be careful if you're going to form an opinion of a person based on them beating an illness, as you're inadvertently implying something about those who u fortunately don't.
 
MrMojo said:
Why am I being smart, it's a simple question, are people who die from cancer winners like those who beat cancer?

If you don't want to answer I understand. My point is that you should be careful if you're going to form an opinion of a person based on them beating an illness, as you're inadvertently implying something about those who u fortunately don't.
Click to expand...

Are you so thick - I said they are winners
 
bazalini said:
Are you so thick - I said they are winners
Click to expand...

It just wasn't a very clear answer(when answering a question, it's best to start with the answer rather than briefly addressing it midway through a post). So all people who have cancer are winners. Obviously I disagree and side with those who've argued that if he should receive praise it should be confined to how he's helped other sufferers.
 
MrMojo said:
It just wasn't a very clear answer(when answering a question, it's best to start with the answer rather than briefly addressing it midway through a post). So all people who have cancer are winners. Obviously I disagree and side with those who've argued that if he should receive praise it should be confined to how he's helped other sufferers.
Click to expand...

Grand so - I have just given my opinion from my own view. People can think of hi as the Next Adolf Hitler, I do not know you so its not up to me to form an opinion on your belief system. I just wish to register my own opinion.
 
bazalini said:
Millions of people die from it too - leaving behind families, a wife, husband, parents, children. If ever faced with the situation where you or someone have cancer, the gfrank reality of dying or living - I hope you pass over the condition as above adex
Click to expand...

Come on Baz, the prevalence of cancer is such that we have all been touched by it. Almost everyone in my family dies from it.
 
football might not be cycling or baseball, but I deffo think it's dirty.

I definitely think it's dirtier than basketball (NBA).

I think tennis also has a performance enhancing drug issue.

I reckon cricket and f1 are not as tainted.
 
beacon said:
That's interesting, I wonder if that graph is also consistent with a transfusion. Normally red cells have a life expectancy of around 90 days, transfused cells have a life expectancy of roughly half to a third of that time. Is it normal for the HCt to fall over the course of a race like it did during the Giro? Or, is that fall more consistent with the death of transfused red blood cells?
Click to expand...

I'm not an expert, but the spike of hematocrit before the TdF seems unnaturally high compared to the Italian race and the spikes at the end (which also occured on rest days) would make me guess it was EPO, given his history - although it could well be both on that basis.

As for football, Michele Ferrari was linked to Barcelona and Pep Guardiola had a positive test for nandrolone, with the spate in the early-00's.

Juventus have also been implicated as having a systematic doping programme, as did Parma - the Italian police did blood tests on the Parma team around that time and Crespo and the goalkeeper were meant to have ridiculous, almost dangerous hematocrit levels suggestive of rampant EPO abuse - any co-incidence that is the time Italian teams dominated Europe?

Wenger has also spoken of the hematocrit levels of players brought in from the continent when they have Arsenal medicals, raising a serious eyebrow. They probably aren't even told by the clubs.
 
TheRisingSun said:
As for football, Michele Ferrari was linked to Barcelona and Pep Guardiola had a positive test for nandrolone, with the spate in the early-00's.

Juventus have also been implicated as having a systematic doping programme, as did Parma - the Italian police did blood tests on the Parma team around that time and Crespo and the goalkeeper were meant to have ridiculous, almost dangerous hematocrit levels suggestive of rampant EPO abuse - any co-incidence that is the time Italian teams dominated Europe?

Wenger has also spoken of the hematocrit levels of players brought in from the continent when they have Arsenal medicals, raising a serious eyebrow. They probably aren't even told by the clubs.
Click to expand...

The spate of positive nandrolone tests in the early 2000s may well have been down to contamined (legal) supplements. There was research from that time which showed that around a third of over-the-counter protein supplements in Holland for example generated a positive test.

The domination of Italian teams in Europe extends well beyond the great Juventus and Parma teams of the mid-to-late 1990s. However I agree with your general point and think football's a bit wet around the ears when it comes down to PEDs, given how prominent it is in other sports particularly those where the financial rewards are considerably less than football.
 


David Walsh describes Betsy Andrau as the "No 1 hero" in this whole sorry saga, but as well know there were others who fell victim to his malice.
 
He did not shoot anyone, he did not murder anyone. Lets get a grip on reality here.

He cheated in a sport rife with cheaters. His biggest mistake was he won too much
 
Nick 0208 Ldn said:


David Walsh describes Betsy Andrau as the "No 1 hero" in this whole sorry saga, but as well know there were others who fell victim to his malice.
Click to expand...


her husband was interviewed today on espn and was not nearly as distraught/angry as betsy.

I wonder if its because he rode dirty for a little while in his career as well so understands on some level where Armstrong is coming from.
 
bazalini said:
He did not shoot anyone, he did not murder anyone. Lets get a grip on reality here.

He cheated in a sport rife with cheaters. His biggest mistake was he won too much
Click to expand...

I don't think it's the cheating itself that is such a problem. although there is a huge element of schadenfreude given his earlier arrogant denials of drug use.

It's the intimidation, bullying, slander and litigation against anyone who dared tell the truth about him and the fact that he's left behind a trail of destruction of anyone who crossed him as he trod over their bodies to a fortune of $125 million.

There is an element of "father Christmas" syndrome to it as well I think. Whilst deep down in our rational minds, we probably all know that elite level sport is riddled with drugs, we overlook it and pretend it's pure human competition. When you find someone who has been so systematic in their deception of such a high profile, it does shake your faith when you hear that it wasn't all real.
 
bazalini said:
He did not shoot anyone, he did not murder anyone. Lets get a grip on reality here.

He cheated in a sport rife with cheaters. His biggest mistake was he won too much
Click to expand...

Christophe Bassons, Emma O'Reilly, Betsy Andrau, and they are just the more high profile names.

He sought to ruin people, their lives, and i doubt after seeing that interview if he'd have shed one tear were it to have forced them to consider an end to it all.

The very humanity you admire him for, Armstrong would ruthlessly take from other with not a thought.
 
TheRisingSun said:
the Italian police did blood tests on the Parma team around that time and Crespo and the goalkeeper were meant to have ridiculous, almost dangerous hematocrit levels suggestive of rampant EPO abusee?
Click to expand...
Off topic, but what's the point of giving EPO to a goalie?
 
Nick 0208 Ldn said:
Christophe Bassons, Emma O'Reilly, Betsy Andrau, and they are just the more high profile names.

He sought to ruin people, their lives, and i doubt after seeing that interview if he'd have shed one tear were it to have forced them to consider an end to it all.

The very humanity you admire him for, Armstrong would ruthlessly take from other with not a thought.
Click to expand...

He certainly is an irrefutable cnut but it is also important to maintain a sense of perspective on his transgressions.

One of the biggest and highest profile wrong 'uns in sport but he's no genocidal tyrant.
 
I'm not so sure if his philanthropy is genuine. Could be one of those tactics he sought to minimise damage and protect himself in the event he ever got caught 'cheating.'
 
TheRisingSun said:
He certainly is an irrefutable cnut but it is also important to maintain a sense of perspective on his transgressions.

One of the biggest and highest profile wrong 'uns in sport but he's no genocidal tyrant.
Click to expand...

I don't think the reaction in here has been too OTT.

A tyrant in his own little kingdom and to those who threaten it would be a fair description.


So the start to the second instalment is a bit flat so far, Armstrong is attempting to turn on his emotion chip.
 
Why was LA mentioning the death penalty for? Surely that hasn't actually been suggested?
 
Baxter said:
Why was LA mentioning the death penalty for? Surely that hasn't actually been suggested?
Click to expand...

The death penalty as in life bans from all forms of competitive sport. I do see his point that that is excessive compared to some of the other punishment meted out to cyclists caught doping, but obviously he needs to be made an example of.
 
I guess I am not the only one watching... :cool:

The question is - can you judge somebody that just did what everybody did - only that he might have done it to a bigger extent.

He was not the first one. His first Tour de France win came in 99, or? Pantani in 98 was sure doped and that guy of the Netherlands in 97, too? I do not know if Jan Ullrich already started that early - or only later when he remarked that everybody did - he never told...
 
Tonight's is the sympathy edition, should be interesting to see US based opinion after this.
 
Probably could have condensed that hour down to ten minutes or less.

A noticeable drop-off with the second part, in terms of interest ot the viewer and Oprah herself.
 
adexkola said:
Did he cry?
Click to expand...

He started a bit when talking about his kids but it looked force on his part, the only time it looked natural was when he came close to breaking down again a little bit after when talking about losing around $75m.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.