I agree with your assessment here. He’s different from Neymar. Just lacking that extra bit of flair (though he showed plenty tonight) and sprint speed that Neymar displayed in his youth. Mahrez seems a pretty apt comparison in terms of his movement and style on the pitch. Let’s see how he develops but he’s definitely in the Messi/Neymar level of talent for what he’s shown so far.
Lamine Yamal
- Thread starter Hoof the ball
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Jamie (@Vault Dweller) review both the Everton and Bodø/Glimt victories at Old Trafford. Listen to the guys discuss 2 wins and 7 goals in the last week, analyse of the Amorim formation, focus on Amad and how he is playing, and also take a look at Hojlund, Rashford & Zirkzee – who starts v Arsenal?
As long as he doesn't go on to make a career move as suicidal as Neymar's.
A bit of an off-topic, but that's a rare case of a decision that involved three parties and went wrong for all three, usually at least someone ends up on the plus side. PSG wanted the CL, Neymar (I'm guessing) wanted to be the main man and win the Golden ball and Barcelona spent the Neymar money in the most godawful way possible. An absolute disaster, at least he earned a boatload of money I guess (but now that all those crazy Bartomeu era contracts leaked out, he would've earned a boatload anyways).
The problem it's the constant comparison with Messi, because Yamal actually has a great range of passing and great ability regarding those, The kid it's clearly a natural regarding those, but so was Netzer, Schuster, Toninho Cerezo, Laudrup, Rui, Riquelme, Veron, etc etc etc..., without entering the Zico, Platini, Pele, Maradona bracket...that it's the problem with the kid right now, everything is attached to the Messi name.
Yet I trully think that with his talent, maturity, projection and even size included (he might even grow more and become stronger). No matter if he ain't R9 when dribbling, or scoring as much as Cris, or not having the passing of Diego (to just leave Messi aside for a moment). He just looks beyond fantastic, but I trully don't get some of the associations regarding style and atributtes.
It's playing the guessing game and fortune teller to know what can happen in the future, but I feel that many of us sense that him, surrounded with all the other kids, with some great coaches and a more organized Barca can actually end in an extraordinary carreer with HUGE success. In fact if anything, as absurd as it might sound, Barca trully didn't entirely got everything they could have obtained with that Messi and cia Gen, maybe this time they finally learn to no shoot at their own feet and Yamal can become the beacon of this next Gen that who knows, ends even more succesfull.
PD side note: also an aspect of passing that the greatest among the greats had, like Pele, Diego, Messi...it's doing them at a very high pace, in tight areas, playing in very congestioned zones, while dribbling and being hacked...that managed of space, time and ability to pull out of the blue passes constantly like a second nature sometimes even like an instinct getting themselves in areas that any great footballer would (intelligently) avoid, it's one of the things that separates them even from phenoms like Laudrup, Iniesta, etc.
Yet I trully think that with his talent, maturity, projection and even size included (he might even grow more and become stronger). No matter if he ain't R9 when dribbling, or scoring as much as Cris, or not having the passing of Diego (to just leave Messi aside for a moment). He just looks beyond fantastic, but I trully don't get some of the associations regarding style and atributtes.
It's playing the guessing game and fortune teller to know what can happen in the future, but I feel that many of us sense that him, surrounded with all the other kids, with some great coaches and a more organized Barca can actually end in an extraordinary carreer with HUGE success. In fact if anything, as absurd as it might sound, Barca trully didn't entirely got everything they could have obtained with that Messi and cia Gen, maybe this time they finally learn to no shoot at their own feet and Yamal can become the beacon of this next Gen that who knows, ends even more succesfull.
PD side note: also an aspect of passing that the greatest among the greats had, like Pele, Diego, Messi...it's doing them at a very high pace, in tight areas, playing in very congestioned zones, while dribbling and being hacked...that managed of space, time and ability to pull out of the blue passes constantly like a second nature sometimes even like an instinct getting themselves in areas that any great footballer would (intelligently) avoid, it's one of the things that separates them even from phenoms like Laudrup, Iniesta, etc.
I’m not pretending you said he was a better player. I specifically addressed you saying he was a better passer. I didn’t even mention the crossing. I only mentioned the passing. And I did it because it was ridiculous. And it still is.
I think his technical gestures are almost unbelievably similar to Neymar's. His footwoork, how he drags the ball back and forth to dribble, his feints, his turns; everything evokes Neymar. I'm not saying that he just watched the Brazilian and copied his moves; his body perfectly mimics the other's. Those diagonal lofted passes, that's a Neymar's pass; Yamal executes the movement exactly like him. His silhouette while hitting the ball, its trajectory, the acceleration; it's all the same.
Passing involves one/twos, throught balls, first touch, etc...Messi was born with those and played as an enganche in Rosario, it's Barca the one that let him be a bit of an enganche in La Masia but mostly "turned" him in an inverted winger, specially to later to find him a place in the Senior team. The mature "enganche" from Messi, was just returning to his roots and focusing even more because time makes any player loose his legs.
He always had very mature actions even being a kid, yet the thing with Messi, it's not that his dribbling was just better, his dribbling already looked Maradona/Pele/ ubber Zico alike since a very tender age. This obviously would make a teenager used it most of times since it was very hard to take the ball from him. It's not that he learned his passing while growing, he just adapted to what the teams needed from him and to his own physical changes regarding pace and stamina.
What Yamal it's better than Messi at the same age, it's in being less individualistic, play with more pause, while he was asigned a diff role, than the more confine one Messi had in his younger years. Yet Messi obviously would be worse regarding those aspects, because his natural pace, ability and ubber electric game triggered him by mere instict to take it against a whole team, you can see the same with Maradona when a kid in Argentinos Jrs, (or even in Boca and Barcelona). Everything was already there, but the dude could take on entire teams so he did it.
Yamal cannot do that at THAT level (not that he can't, but not with such dominance and level of pace) and it's intelligent enough to not try that, he chooses his moments, he plays less one twos at high pace in tighter spaces also because it's a diff Barca that needs him playing more long balls than Messi at similar ages and that tries to uses him as much as they can in open space; sthg BTW that Barca in Messi's era, tried a lot less than they should, I would have love to see Messi playing under Klopp, Mou, Flick, less "La Masia " alike coaches.
Also passing the way Messi does since born at such pace, it's not for everyone, even as special as Yamal is and hopefuly would become. Messi is the type of player that the worst pass sent to him, he'll control it at highest pace, makes it good and in the same flow of play releases another, even a through ball, without even turn down a notch in his pace nor loosing the ability of reading his surroundings. Very few players could do this in the game at such level, and that it's the hardest passing there is to be made.
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People need to remember that growth and development isn't linear, just because Yamal is possibly the best 17 year old we've ever seen (never witnessed 17yo Pele tbf) doesn't mean he'll be better than Messi, Neymar, CR etc in their prime.
He is also an unfinished article despite how skilful he already is, he could be a different type of player in 5-10 years because almost no one plays the same as they did when they were 17 all their career. Thus comparisons to prime Messi, Mahrez, or Neymar are a bit pointless, he's Yamal and in time others will be compared to him.
I do reckon Yamal can overtake R9 to become the youngest ever BdO winner if Flick steers them to glory since it's a weak era and Mbappe isn't exactly impressive at RM. La Masia deserves all the plaudits though; often I wonder how many undeveloped prodigies are out there unable to access La Masia standard training, hampered by hormone issues like Messi or abject poverty like Yamal. In 99.9% of cases a kid born to teens living in poverty would find it hard to access elite sport training but Yamal, Raphinha, many South American players prove Football is indeed a great sport because so long as you're talented and willing they will train you. And La Masia is proof that a truly elite academy pipeline is what makes Barcelona a top tier club even in financial doldrums, unlike other clubs backed by Arab sheikhs or Russian oligarchs.
He is also an unfinished article despite how skilful he already is, he could be a different type of player in 5-10 years because almost no one plays the same as they did when they were 17 all their career. Thus comparisons to prime Messi, Mahrez, or Neymar are a bit pointless, he's Yamal and in time others will be compared to him.
I do reckon Yamal can overtake R9 to become the youngest ever BdO winner if Flick steers them to glory since it's a weak era and Mbappe isn't exactly impressive at RM. La Masia deserves all the plaudits though; often I wonder how many undeveloped prodigies are out there unable to access La Masia standard training, hampered by hormone issues like Messi or abject poverty like Yamal. In 99.9% of cases a kid born to teens living in poverty would find it hard to access elite sport training but Yamal, Raphinha, many South American players prove Football is indeed a great sport because so long as you're talented and willing they will train you. And La Masia is proof that a truly elite academy pipeline is what makes Barcelona a top tier club even in financial doldrums, unlike other clubs backed by Arab sheikhs or Russian oligarchs.
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My biggest fear, which I've reiterated before is his injury susceptibility.
He's tall, 6ft at the age of 17 so by the time he's finished growing we're looking at around 6ft 1 potentially. With his acceleration, dribbling style and constant moving about, twisting/turning, those knee's are going to take a beating as his centre of gravity is quite high. .
And at his age, knee's are very very fragile.
He's tall, 6ft at the age of 17 so by the time he's finished growing we're looking at around 6ft 1 potentially. With his acceleration, dribbling style and constant moving about, twisting/turning, those knee's are going to take a beating as his centre of gravity is quite high. .
And at his age, knee's are very very fragile.
The biggest problem is the knocks that come from fouling. The ammount of games while growing up, while his body is changing constantl...yet Barca has taken a diff aproach regarding fitness and food habits since they had Messi constantly injured while being a kid.
Also Yamal it's not even nearly as explosive as Messi was, constantly demanding his body and receiving fouls at a very high pace, nor is playing all the time in a land mine in the middle of the partk and asked to much of defensive actions as someone like Gavi or Pedro would be asked.
It clearly looks that even strategically for instance Flick tries to create scenarios where he can receive the ball with space and trying to find him open.
All these helps a lot, but of coruse injuries would happen, no player would go ina carreer without them. In any case Barca cannot have teh luxury of older times of not using him, they need him as much as they need there other kids, that's why so many of them have so many games at a very young age.
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The Messi comparisons are silly. He’s not that talented at all. Having said that, I think he’s the most talented player of this generation (his and the one before with Mbappe).
Even if you don't think the Messi comparisons are warranted. "He's not that talented at all" - and I know it is contextually and relative to Messi - as a sentence for Lamine Yamal is crazy to me, considering what he's already accomplished and the level of performances he's put in accomplishing so.
And every single one of them makes Tony Martial and Louis Saha seem reliable.
Marc Bernal - ACL
Ansu Fati - Torn Meniscus
Gavi - ACL
Pedri - 4 (!!!) torn hamstrings and an ACL strain
Balde - 2 ankle ligament tears and a tendon rupture
Araujo - Torn hamstring and about 1 million other injuries that I can't remember
Fermin - recurring Hamstring problems
That's not to mention all those young wonderkids who are no longer at the club but have left but were hampered heavily by injuries.
Vitor Roque and Lamine Yamal are the only two out of the Barca wonderkids who aren't consistently hampered by really bad injuries. And that's partly because Vitor Roque was hated by Xavi and refused to play him.
Frankly I have almost little to no faith in Barca keeping their wonderkids healthy based on their track record.
That said, I think there's something horribly wrong with Real Madrid too, just on the other end of the spectrum, their established players keep getting crippling injuries.
Courtois - ACL
Alaba - ACL
Carvajal - ACL
Militao - ACL
Palacios - ACL
Brahim Diaz - Torn Hamstring
Rodrygo - Potential Torn Hamstring
Camavinga - Torn Knee Ligaments
Something really weird is going on at the training regimens or medical support at the Two Spanish Giants.
Courtois - ACL
Alaba - ACL
Carvajal - ACL
Militao - ACL
Palacios - ACL
Brahim Diaz - Torn Hamstring
Rodrygo - Potential Torn Hamstring
Camavinga - Torn Knee Ligaments
Something really weird is going on at the training regimens or medical support at the Two Spanish Giants.
I have a hot take to leave here too:
I think Arda Guler will have a better overall career:
Not that he's more talented or anything, just that his style, his body and physical size/shape is far less pertaining to very heavy injuries and he's being developed at a much more reasonable rate.
I think Arda Guler will have a better overall career:
Not that he's more talented or anything, just that his style, his body and physical size/shape is far less pertaining to very heavy injuries and he's being developed at a much more reasonable rate.
Merely because of who he is being compared to. You can be an absurd talent and not one of that level. Mbappe was also a smashing talent at 17 - I I recall he won the French league with Monaco at that age ahead of PSG. Then won the WC and scored in the final at 19. Rooney as well - stunning for England at the euros till his injury and then for us. Granted, Yamal may just be the most finished article I’ve ever seen at his age. What I love is his weight of pass more than anything.
He definitely more eye catching than Messi as a youngster because he can already control the game. I remember seeing Messi breaking out like a sub off the bench.
However, considering things like having the coaching of Guardiola & therefore playing with some absolute legends including themselves I doubt Yamal would reach that level, he just won't get to play in the best team ever under the best manager/coach ever.
Shame, would have been nice to see some competition to Messi straight away but a lot of things got to align well for Messi to achieve what he did.
However, considering things like having the coaching of Guardiola & therefore playing with some absolute legends including themselves I doubt Yamal would reach that level, he just won't get to play in the best team ever under the best manager/coach ever.
Shame, would have been nice to see some competition to Messi straight away but a lot of things got to align well for Messi to achieve what he did.
Do yourself a favor and go watch these numerous passing compilation. You'll realize he was much more than what you described. His passing between defensive lines on the floor was and still is unparalleled
He reminds me of Figo in the sense of having everything to his game.
This
I don't think is exclusive on them. I think there are more injuries everywhere
I think there is less rest than before. Marginally but noticeable with so many matches. Summers are shorter, some friendlies needs to line up the stars also by contract sometimes with long haul flights. Seeing a classico as a summer friendly was seen almost as an insult, now they organized 1 each of the last 3 years. And they are not played like a friendly. Before they could rest of official matches the odds summers (no Euro, no WC), now nation league and after this season even more with the club world cup. The spanish supercup, before played local as a final is played in Saudi Arabia as a final four. And so on. little increments
Neymar did not make his professional debut for SANTOS until he was almost the same age as Yamal is now. And Yamal starred at a major international competition at an age when Neymar was still playing youth football. So you are wrong. And I'm a big Neymar admirer.
Most important is that we appreciate this kid's greatness without talking about Messi which I know, will be next to impossible.
I mean, it sk obviously isn't clear. Neymar had barely started playing for Santos at 17, let alone being capped by Brazil at 16 or starring at a massive international tournament at 16.
Really don't see the point in comparisons to Messi at this stage, still very early in his career and he's an exceptional talent for his age.
He’s a better talent at 16 than Neymar was or should I say more advanced, but he isn’t more talented naturally, technically and I don’t think had a higher ceiling than an 18 year old Neymar did.
Do you resume talent comparisions to how soon those player reached the highest level? Do you think Rooney was more talented than Ronaldinho?
In Neymar's case, his body didn't allow him to be effective as a professional player at 16-17 years old. Yeah, Yamal is no Endrick, but Neymar looked like not even a teenager, but a little boy on the field in 2009. Search for photos and you'll see how he contrasted with the other players. In the next year, after he gained a bit of body and honed his timing, which is even more essential for someone so fragile, he showed since the very first match of that season how much he was above everyone else in Brazilian football, to the point of being considered Honors Concurs in individual awards in Brazil(this has only happened to him and Pelé so far).
Yes, La Liga is stronger than Brasileirão, but Neymar was a Santos player and he faced whoever as possible at that time. If you're going to resort to this kind of argument, there's no point even starting to discuss it.
Watching him live feels like a huge privilege and being a part of history, I only felt it with a very few players and almost never with a youngster. Comparing him to Messi is obviously stupid, but Yamal is the biggest and the most exciting European talent I’ve seen since I started watching football 20-25 years ago
Well yes, the development of the body plays a part in how soon the player progresses, but your example is poor. Rooney was built like a bull even as a teenager, Yamal is quite clearly not. So it it his talent that has brought him to the levels that he has attained thus far, not his 'brute strength' or power.
What I think also that people are doing in this thread, is judging whole careers, rather than a player's abilities as a 16, 17 or 18 year old. Players improve in terms of skill as well, through practice.
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Every player’s growth isn’t linear though? Everyone thought that Rooney would be one of the very best players in history and dubbed him the white pele simply for how good he was from 16-20. Only to find out that he was actually near his max potential. (Not saying he didn’t have a great career but he didn’t get much better relative to his early promise).
Yamal is not a bull(as I made clear in my previous post), but he doesn't look bizarre on the field compared to adult players, like 2008-2009 Neymar did. Even 2010 Neymar was considerably thinner. So, in a direct comparision to Neymar, it's not just his talent that has been relevant.
Anyway, I don't think it's the case with Neymar, but some players also need more time to get confidence or to learn how to use their skills properly(that can happen because they don't have as good football IQ, which is talent, or maybe because they didn't receive as good formation or for some emotional reason; it's hard to be sure at that age).
Well yes of course, but I am in no way making any claims about how good Lamine will be or how his career will go because none of us have any idea. There are so many variables to consider. I'm just talking about him now vs other guys when they were the same (or similar) age. Too often, I see people comparing the peak or near peak versions of other players to him and then saying that those players are clearly better at this or that.
Honestly, who knows how good he’ll be. If he stays on the same trajectory though, he could be in with a shout of one of the greatest of his generation.
Yamal it's not playing a role to control the game. That's not his task
Messi was a sub because that was a star studded team, that won everything and Rikjaard decided to take it with caution, yet the lad blew the door to the point that when Pep arrived (a newbie at the time) decided to bet all on him and fired half the team of stars and giving the little lad the 10 the responsability to be the major figure of that team.
That's pretty far from an easy scenario, people sometimes do not see it that way because of how it developes due to both fellas inmense talent, but that was quite a fecking risky bet.
At the start of La Liga Pep draw and loose against a couple of minnions and the typical rumour of "he doesn't have the experience" started, if he had a couple of more bad results, it would have been hard to keep him in the way Barca works.
Side note, Messi after Pep, never had a huge coach that could have been extremely great to enhace his atributes, but that's another story
So good.
Cheeky bid? They need the money, we need cover for Rashford…
We should attract him by having Antony come meet him and teach him the roundabout trick.
It was even a quiet game by his standards, yet he could have had an assist and another goal to go with his right foot goal.
Cubarsi and Yamal could be looking at 150 odd games for Spain if they stay fit and have long careers like Sergio Ramos. 180 caps for Spain. 200 might even be achievable. Who knows.
He's insane, absolute joy to watch.
Today was the first time I've actually seen him be a bit selfish and make poor choices in attack and he still ends the match with a wonderful goal and what should have been an assist for Lewa.
They don’t need money at all after the impending Nike deal and after the completion of Espai Barca.
And they would never sell Yamal regardless.