La Liga/Serie A/BuLi Draft - QF Enigma_87/Snow vs Aldo/The Stain

[VivaJanuzaj]

Well we have chosen him because IMO in some areas he's a bit of combination between Seedorf and Pirlo with whom Kaka played

That's a bit much, even as a Modric fanboy I don't think he has anything on Seedorf's work rate or strength, might have the vision of Pirlo but very different skill set from both.

I don't think his role here is too dissimilar from Croatia where he's got Kovacic in front of him being the more direct attacker. The main thing is that he's a key outlet in transitioning from defense to attack. He's the kind of player that you can pass the ball to and be safe of not losing it meaning that if space get's too tight in the middle he'll be able to get the ball out of pressure. There's really no catching him off guard with a sudden pressure which Mendieta or Davids will no doubt do, especially Davids. He'll just turn away from their challenge or get the free kick. Meanwhile space will open up elsewhere.

That's really what I see Modric doing. Taking on pressure in midfield, allowing space to open elsewhere and be able to get the ball there. Mendieta or Davids can't really allow any mistakes because that leaves a deadly trio behind them. I think Modrid will be in the same bracket as Mendieta. He doesn't get his goals from set pieces or penalties like Mendieta but if he gets an opportunity he's a serious threat outside the box. He might be the best MC in today's game with Iniesta being over the hill.

In my eyes the weakness in AldoStain's setup is Mascherano because like you said he's not good enough to contain Kaka, it's not prime DMC Mascherano either and he hardly contributes anything in attack which makes defending for our side easier. I wouldn't often consider Mascherano a weakness but given the criteria and how they are set up vs our setup I don't think he offers much.

I don't think Davids/Mendieta won't be able to take the ball from him, moreover I think your defence will be pinned back and will try to send the balls forward straight to the front three and the counters. The bad news for you is that it skips Modric and than you might as well have a midfielder better at defending. The good new is that's still dangerous enough to have me consider my vote.

 

[Enigma_87]

I stand firm with what i wrote.

How does a team consisting of Candela/Mendieta/Reus/Littbarski struggle with creativity? Makes little sense to me. Even Davids direct forward runs will be hard to keep up with. Mascherano has a job here and that is to help our superior central defenders shut down the middle. Mendieta/Davids will provide excellent shields on their sides.

It just makes sense that even though your front trio is superb, they will have limited space to operate in against our compact defending. This is one aspect of where i think the tactical advantage comes in play (4-3-3 vs diamond). Your wing-backs have a big role to play in this game and i just can't see them being influential enough. They really need to keep an eye on our wings. Cafu is amazing but he faces an epic battle having to attack and at the same time defend alongside Schneider against a flank consisting of Candela/Davids/Reus.

There is no arguing that you have a better striker in Shevchenko but we can't just look at 1v1's. Our front trio are more protected defensively in vital areas on the pitch to enable them to do damage, hence i said we have a more cohesive team. Your wing-backs really have to focus more on defending and i see us reaping the rewards a lot on the counter.

When you have possession you're facing a packed defence with wingers also contributing. When we have possession and can't counter we will aim to switch flanks quickly in order to create space for our wingers. My post above and what i've just written are crucial tactical points which would give us a more than decent chance of winning this.

Well you have the same and we have that players to switch flanks or combine in the center, while in a packed defence you'll have Makaay cluttered in the center, Mendieta as main creative force and Reus eaten alive by Cafu.

And it's not only Sheva, but Villa is also the better striker, while IMO Modric and Kaka also easily the most creative midfielders in both teams.

 

[Enigma_87]

That's a bit much, even as a Modric fanboy I don't think he has anything on Seedorf's work rate or strength, might have the vision of Pirlo but very different skill set from both.

Nah, mate I'm not saying he is the mixture of both having the best skillset of them. He has qualities that are close to some of what Seedorf has and Pirlo has as you mentioned. He isn't better than Seedorf in that sense but it shouldn't be overlook both in the work rate department or strength give his frame.

I refer to that because of some comments of him being littleweight. In that area he really developed a lot during his time at Real. He won't ever be the same physical monster Seedorf was but he shouldn't be considered littleweight as well.

 

[Enigma_87]

Nice piece on Modric(not for Viva specifically I'm sure he follows Modric game):

Tuesday night's Madrid derby had a host of stellar midfield talent on show. German World Cup winner Toni Kroos, Colombian star James Rodriguez, Turkish wizard Arda Turan and Spanish playmaker Koke all showcased their skills to the Vicente Calderón Stadium - but one man clearly stood out from the crowd.

Croatian mastermind Luka Modric was the best player on the pitch, driving Real Madrid forward and beavering well in defence when needed. With Cristiano Ronaldo, Gareth Bale and Karim Benzema disappointing up top for Real Madrid, it was Modric's composure and incisive passing that put Real on the front foot time and time again.

His link up play with right back Daniel Carvajal was also a key part of Madrid's game. Modric found the Spaniard 18 times during the match and his calmness on the ball allowed the full back to attack down the right hand side to great effect.

The statistics from last night's game show the incredible influence that Modric has on this Real Madrid team. The diminutive Croatian completed the most attacking third passes of any player on the field, with 23 out of his 24 attempts finding their mark.

In terms of overall passing, he was second only to Toni Kroos whose deeper role allowed him more time and space on the ball. With a pass completion rate of 94.2%, you can see why the Croat is a fan favourite at the Santiago Bernabeu.

Modric also shone defensively last night; with eight ball recoveries over the course of the game, he outshone his midfield team mates and was only bested by Spanish battlers Sergio Ramos and Mario Suarez.

A man known for his creative playmaking, Modric also brings much needed work rate and tenacity to this Madrid team. Modric attempted two tackles during the game, winning them both. In terms of midfielders, only Atletico's Koke managed more.

Before the game last night, Real Madrid legend Raul earmarked Modric as the key player to unlocking the Altetico team. Speaking to L'Equipe, the former Spain striker revealed how valuable the Croatian is for the side.

“I think the superstars like Ronaldo, Benzema, Bale, Arda Turan and Koke will be prominent but I think the key to Real Madrid’s success could be Luka Modric.

There are plenty of fantastic midfield players across Europe, but in Luka Modric Real Madrid have arguably the best all round talent. Capable of opening teams up with his vision, he also has the work rate and energy to support his defence if needed.

With Real Madrid playing an attacking front six, Modric is the only man amongst them who offers Real Madrid a genuine defensive edge. A combination of two incredible ex-Madrid midfielders, he has the defensive passing game of Xabi Alonso and the attacking dribbling of Angel Di Maria.

Other world class players like Toni Kroos, Cesc Fabregas, Paul Pogba and Bastian Schweinsteiger can definitely challenge Modric in terms of individual attributes like goal scoring or tackling, but they don't have the all round game of the Croatian. Capable of playing in a number of roles, Modric has an array of talents that allows him to contribute both offensively and defensively. Is Modric the best all round midfielder in Europe? Most definitely.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

This is roughly how I see most of the match looking like with Aldo/Stain on the ball and SnowEnigma waiting for their chance to hit the ball forward.

 

[The Stain]

Well you have the same and we have that players to switch flanks or combine in the center, while in a packed defence you'll have Makaay cluttered in the center, Mendieta as main creative force and Reus eaten alive by Cafu.

And it's not only Sheva, but Villa is also the better striker, while IMO Modric and Kaka also easily the most creative midfielders in both teams.

Your wing-backs will be naturally inclined to keep higher starting positions whether you like it or not so i disagree with that sentiment.

Your front trio is tasty, no arguments there. But as a whole, ours is a cohesive team with roles well distributed to suit our game-plan. I just don't think the same of yours. To say Reus will be eaten alive by Cafu is a bit of an exaggeration, no?

We really have set up in a way to counter your strenghts and i just don't think the same can be said vice versa.

Going forward you have more gaps to fill with new players than we do and if a few top attackers swing it for you then so be it.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

Reus had his number of games against Lahm, who doesn't fall back from Cafu in defending, where he was very influental of the game

 

[Ecstatic]

First of all, I voted against each of the 2 teams in the previous round: no personal or strategic considerations.

SHEVCHENKO AND MAKAAY WILL HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO SCORE

What I know is that Shevchenko in his league peak (career peak with Milan: Ballon d'Or in 2004) is unstoppable.

Focus on the game: Juventus 1-3 Milan Ac in March 2004

Ferrara, Schevschenko, Cafu and Kaka were on the pitch.

Above, Ferrara behind Schevschenko who scored


Below, Cafu & Schevschenko - same game

Regarding Makaay, he was the best scorer in Germany and very successful in La Liga.

Makaay will be able to score against the duo.

No Gifs for Makaay because I understand he has never played against Helmer & Lucio (to be confirmed)

 

[Enigma_87]

Your wing-backs will be naturally inclined to keep higher starting positions whether you like it or not so i disagree with that sentiment.

Your front trio is tasty, no arguments there. But as a whole, ours is a cohesive team with roles well distributed to suit our game-plan. I just don't think the same of yours. To say Reus will be eaten alive by Cafu is a bit of an exaggeration, no?

We really have set up in a way to counter your strenghts and i just don't think the same can be said vice versa.

Going forward you have more gaps to fill with new players than we do and if a few top attackers swing it for you then so be it.

I think Cafu defensive work is underrated a bit in the thread. He was known for regaining position extremely quick. I don't think having him in attack is an issue, because this is what he did in his whole career. For one he's more conservative out of the two full backs Brazil had and better defensively than Carlos.

Maybe a little harsh yes, but I expect Cafu to be the victor in that battle considering the stature of both players and their respective peaks.

Reus had his number of games against Lahm, who doesn't fall back from Cafu in defending, where he was very influental of the game

Cafu IMO is a great fit for Reus given his stamina and athleticism. They defend differently and IMO Cafu will be the better fit for the job. Obviously Lahm is top top defender and have different skillset.

For all the talk about defence I can see Candela and Marcelo a lot similar but the latter IMO is the better all round footballer.

 

[Enigma_87]

First of all, I voted against each of the 2 teams in the previous round: no personal or strategic considerations.

SHEVCHENKO AND MAKAAY WILL HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO SCORE

What I know is that Shevchenko in his league peak (career peak with Milan: Ballon d'Or in 2004) is unstoppable.

Focus on the game: Juventus 1-3 Milan Ac in March 2004

Ferrara, Schevschenko, Cafu and Kaka were on the pitch.

Above, Ferrara behind Schevschenko who scored


Below, Cafu & Schevschenko - same game

Regarding Makaay, he was the best scorer in Germany and very successful in La Liga.

Makaay will be able to score against the duo.

No Gifs for Makaay because I understand he has never played against Helmer & Lucio (to be confirmed)

That is

and let's not forget we also have David Villa there. It's not like the man needs many chances if he gets near the box:


this is exactly what he can do in this game as well, drop a bit to the left. Receive the ball, 1-2 touches and send the ball in the net.

His movement is excellent for Sheva to find some space as well. Especially on counters with Kaka also drawing man to him with the ball.

or from the halfway line:

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

First of all, I voted against each of the 2 teams in the previous round: no personal or strategic considerations.

SHEVCHENKO AND MAKAAY WILL HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO SCORE

What I know is that Shevchenko in his league peak (career peak with Milan: Ballon d'Or in 2004) is unstoppable.

Focus on the game: Juventus 1-3 Milan Ac in March 2004

Ferrara, Schevschenko, Cafu and Kaka were on the pitch.

Above, Ferrara behind Schevschenko who scored


Below, Cafu & Schevschenko - same game

Regarding Makaay, he was the best scorer in Germany and very successful in La Liga.

Makaay will be able to score against the duo.

No Gifs for Makaay because I understand he has never played against Helmer & Lucio (to be confirmed)

Agreed. Thats why I'm still pondering on who will win

 

[Ecstatic]

I don't know if Schneider has a good work-rate and sufficient defensive skills because Mendieta-Davids are 2 strong warriors.

 

[The Stain]

For all the talk about defence I can see Candela and Marcelo a lot similar but the latter IMO is the better all round footballer.

In a league consisting of some of the best full-backs of all time including Zanetti, Thuram, Cafu, Maldini, Zambrotta, Pessotto, Benarrivo etc; Candela was the standout one in the 00/01 season where Roma won the league.

He was running the whole left flank on his own, with help from central midfield of course but still.

Marcelo, whilst good at attacking, is a liability in defence in this game. That is simply so. Littbarski will relish the space he will have when Marcelo is out of position. Even when the full-back is in front of Litti he will find ways to create.

 

[Enigma_87]

I don't know if Schneider has a good work-rate and sufficient defensive skills because Mendieta-Davids are 2 strong warriors.

Oh he ticks in both accounts. That's the reason why we chose him instead of a destroyer type. He is well rounded midfielder, which helped him play all around the park in his career. He won't shy away from challenges as well.

In a league consisting of some of the best full-backs of all time including Zanetti, Thuram, Cafu, Maldini, Zambrotta, Pessotto, Benarrivo etc; Candela was the standout one in the 00/01 season where Roma won the league.

He was running the whole left flank on his own, with help from central midfield of course but still.

Marcelo, whilst good at attacking, is a liability in defence in this game. That is simply so. Littbarski will relish the space he will have when Marcelo is out of position. Even when the full-back is in front of Litti he will find ways to create.

Marcelo kept his place at Real team for like 350 appearances and if he's a defensive liability that wouldn't happen believe me. Real ship players for less than even couple of defensive errors. He's the superior athlete IMO as well and has a tad more stamina while on the same time quite faster which can help him regain position faster as well.

 

[The Stain]

Marcelo kept his place at Real team for like 350 appearances and if he's a defensive liability that wouldn't happen believe me. Real ship players for less than even couple of defensive errors. He's the superior athlete IMO as well and has a tad more stamina while on the same time quite faster which can help him regain position faster as well.

In a team that is expected to attack at all costs, yes. Tuppet already tore Marcelo a new one in the last game so no need to keep arguing here but safe to say he's a weak link.

Litti will enjoy playing in this game..

 

[Enigma_87]

In a team that is expected to attack at all costs, yes. Tuppet already tore Marcelo a new one in the last game so no need to keep arguing here but safe to say he's a weak link.

Not sure that is how you describe Mourinho's Real tho I think it has been overly debated yes, so let's leave it at there.

 

[Balu]

Not sure that is how you describe Mourinho's Real tho

Mourinho did prefer Coentrao over Marcelo in quite a few big games though, especially in the run-in in the title winning season, when Coentrao started over Marcelo in the title decider in Barcelona and in the CL semifinal against Bayern. That left wing was a constant defensive problem for Mourinho with Cristiano doing feck all defensively and Marcelo totally lost. Ancelotti is the only one who kinda fixed it with the way he used Di Maria as a leftsided wide midfielder who worked his ass off in Ronaldo's shadow to keep it somewhat defensively stable.

 

[harms]

I really don't know why Enigma keeps mentioning Angloma - Cafu as a mismatch, they are playing on a different sides of the pitch ffs

 

[Enigma_87]

Mourinho did prefer Coentrao over Marcelo in quite a few big games though, especially in the run-in in the title winning season, when Coentrao started over Marcelo in the title decider in Barcelona and in the CL semifinal against Bayern. That left wing was a constant defensive problem for Mourinho with Cristiano doing feck all defensively and Marcelo totally lost. Ancelotti is the only one who kinda fixed it with the way he used Di Maria as a leftsided wide midfielder who worked his ass off in Ronaldo's shadow to keep it somewhat defensively stable.

Marcelo played in 32 games in that season only missing 6. They've lost 2 games and only drew 4 and 13 clean sheets or something. We have an extra man here in midfield to work his ass of compared to that set up and IMO Kaka also puts in shift to compensate as well, when we're defending. I don't think work rate will be an issue in this game, we have the players to do the job.

I really don't know why Enigma keeps mentioning Angloma - Cafu as a mismatch, they are playing on a different sides of the pitch ffs

It was in terms of players mate, right back to right back, not a direct battle, and only mentioned it once or twice really.

Villa will be dropping into that area and I think he'll get the best of him in the same sense he did with Ramos above when he scored from the edge of the area.

Mentioning was in relation to his profile and that he is probably the worst player on the pitch given all profiles. A bit underwhelming compared to the other right backs left in the pool, that's it.

 

[harms]

Still can't decide. Like Aldo's team better, but fecking hell, this attacking trio of Enigma is perfect, not sure if you can upgrade it in this draft, even Villa, who is the weakest attacker of the three is a great fit in this slightly-left position

 

[Enigma_87]

Still can't decide. Like Aldo's team better, but fecking hell, this attacking trio of Enigma is perfect, not sure if you can upgrade it in this draft, even Villa, who is the weakest attacker of the three is a great fit in this slightly-left position

I think that's the key here really. We've build a team that is near perfect going forward and I can see having enough chances with also a lot of creative options besides that front three to outscore the opposition, which is the key of winning us the game.

Aldo/Stain have built pretty good team themselves, nothing to take off them, but IMO our defence will have the protection in front of them and have a easier job defending, while with that trio and creative options both left right and center will be a bit too much.

For sure there are goals in this game.

Also we're perfectly ok at soaking pressure and putting bodies behind to hit on a counter, the team is also well equipped at doing so, especially with Kaka, Sheva and Villa's linking game. I can see us hitting them on counter quite few times, while on the other hand with more bodies behind Makaay will rely on service and I don't think Aldo/Stain will have that many in more dense line.

If they had Kaka instead of Masch as a #10 behind that midfield pair that would be different, but with Masch limited to defensive role and us capable of doubling some of our players will be good enough defensively IMO.

 

[The Stain]

Still can't decide. Like Aldo's team better, but fecking hell, this attacking trio of Enigma is perfect, not sure if you can upgrade it in this draft, even Villa, who is the weakest attacker of the three is a great fit in this slightly-left position

Yep. I understand voters that share your sentiment. Obviously, i think we've a more balanced side with protection in the right areas to stop the oppositions threats to a degree in which should see us through. Having the bulk of possession and how we utilize the wings is how we'll win this.

I urge voters to have a look through the thread to see what arguments both sides have put up. I really think we should edge this.

 

[Enigma_87]

Yep. I understand voters that share your sentiment. Obviously, i think we've a more balanced side with protection in the right areas to stop the oppositions threats to a degree in which should see us through. Having the bulk of possession and how we utilize the wings is how we'll win this.

I urge voters to have a look through the thread to see what arguments both sides have put up. I really think we should edge this.

I think voters are well aware of both team set up's even looking at the formation as all players are well familiar with both sides. I think you are vulnerable on a counter when you have the possession and there are plenty of examples where Sheva scored against that particular defence and also we have added prime Kaka and prime Villa to the mix. As already said it's pretty tough to upgrade on that attack and IMO apart from proven partnership Villa is playing into a perfect role to utilize his best qualities on the pitch. We have too much firepower with a creative midfield and flanks behind. I think we'll get a fair few chances and chances to operate in less dense defensive line when you are in possession with the right players running into channels.

In a tough and close game you have the world class strikers and forwards that can do the job and outscore you. On the other hand I think our back line will have an easier time, which tips it in our favor.

 

[The Stain]

I think voters are well aware of both team set up's even looking at the formation as all players are well familiar with both sides. I think you are vulnerable on a counter when you have the possession and there are plenty of examples where Sheva scored against that particular defence and also we have added prime Kaka and prime Villa to the mix. As already said it's pretty tough to upgrade on that attack and IMO apart from proven partnership Villa is playing into a perfect role to utilize his best qualities on the pitch. We have too much firepower with a creative midfield and flanks behind. I think we'll get a fair few chances and chances to operate in less dense defensive line when you are in possession with the right players running into channels.

In a tough and close game you have the world class strikers and forwards that can do the job and outscore you. On the other hand I think our back line will have an easier time, which tips it in our favor.

What you have is Cafu with enormous responsability in this game having to contain Reus/Davids with Candela lurking in the background. Schneider/Modric are more attacking players than defensive imo so i don't see all that much protection other than Cafu too some degree, your CB's and Conte that is constantly covering for Marcelo's ass. We've already covered why our right flank with Mendieta and Littbarski will reap the rewards in this game.

With wing-backs bombing forward i really don't see how you'll be able to perform your tactics that you describe as sitting back and countering. You don't have the personnel for that. We do, though. And at the same time you concede that we will have more possession?

Yes, you have creative players but at what point is it too much? Will Modric, Schneider and Kaká be able to coexist on the pitch seeing as they all want a piece of the ball? The defensive balance isn't quite there and you're relying on the muchly inferior axis of Conte/Lucio/Helmer to contain our attacks. It's simply not going to happen.

You go on and on about your strikers and sure, why not? To me this is just to steer away from the fact that the rest of your side probably won't perform your tactics to the level you're expecting.

This just strengthens my belief that we have a more cohesive unit both in defence, attack and that we have a tactical advantage in this game.

 

[Gio]

Schneider provides with a higher work rate off and on the ball, while at the same time covers more ground. He's faster than Mendieta, better dribbler than Mendieta, and also IMO a tad more sound defensively. Not saying he's the better player overall but in this set up, apart from his versatility he offers more team work of what he's asked here and the possibility to cover more ground while in the same time offer combination for Cafu on the right.

I really don't agree. The reason Mendieta twice won UEFA midfielder of the year and was the beating heart behind a team that reached two consecutive Champions League finals was because he married graft with craft. His energy levels were exceptional and his huge defensive contributions made an already stingy Valencia side even harder to break down. Imagine your most creative player also having the work rate and hussle of the typical watercarrier at the base of midfield? That was Mendieta.

This draft sure is intense .

Anyway the Lucio being reckless point can settle this for me, IF there is anything to back it up. I tried basic Googling and couldn't find much on the topic. If he was reckless then along with Marcelo thats just too many liabilities. May be some neutral would shed light on this one.

Lucio certainly had the reputation of a swashbuckling centre-half who loved to career forward and overload the midfield. An excellent defender though, undoubtedly one of the best in the draft. It comes back to fit as Balu highlighted. You'd need a lot of cover to get that version of him, the other Serie A version played more with his handbrake on. Helmer/Conte could do some of that defensive covering but it's not as convincing as an anchor that excelled in dropping back in or a full-back that naturally tucks into a three. Not really a big issue, but something that, worst-case scenario, could lead to a goal.

I agree with Aldo that Engima's MF is problematic. He needs to replace one of Modric/Schnider with a B2B midfielder. But his attacking prowess is too good to overlook here. The front 3 are final ready IMO, supplemented by Marcelo and Cafu on the wings and Modric capable of creating as much as any CM. In comparison, Aldo's attack seems a bit lacking other than Littbarski. I guess it comes down to the fact that I don't rate Reus as much as others. So overall, think Enigma knicks this on goals.

I think this is a fair take: there is a lot to like about Engima/Snow's diamond and attack.

There is a couple of critical mismatches:

• the control exerted by Davids and Mendieta in midfield - I think that's clear that they will own that area given what they're up against
• the knots Littbarski will tie Marcelo into
• the sheer acceleration of prime Kaka against a sort-of-prime Mascherano.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

Ah feck it. This was very hard to decide but opted for an Aldo/Stain lead for now and gave them my vote but I might retract it if EnigmaSnow will convince me

 

[Enigma_87]

What you have is Cafu with enormous responsability in this game having to contain Reus/Davids with Candela lurking in the background. Schneider/Modric are more attacking players than defensive imo so i don't see all that much protection other than Cafu too some degree, your CB's and Conte that is constantly covering for Marcelo's ass. We've already covered why our right flank with Mendieta and Littbarski will reap the rewards in this game.

With wing-backs bombing forward i really don't see how you'll be able to perform your tactics that you describe as sitting back and countering. You don't have the personnel for that. We do, though. And at the same time you concede that we will have more possession?

Yes, you have creative players but at what point is it too much? Will Modric, Schneider and Kaká be able to coexist on the pitch seeing as they all want a piece of the ball? The defensive balance isn't quite there and you're relying on the muchly inferior axis of Conte/Lucio/Helmer to contain our attacks. It's simply not going to happen.

You go on and on about your strikers and sure, why not? To me this is just to steer away from the fact that the rest of your side probably won't perform your tactics to the level you're expecting.

This just strengthens my belief that we have a more cohesive unit both in defence, attack and that we have a tactical advantage in this game.

You use Mendieta/Davids out wide in that description while in the same time you use them in the center. All players move so if yours move ours will do the same. I don't see any numerical advantage you will have going forward, which IMO is essential on how we will defend. The most counter attacking it will be from our side, not yours. I can see that set up that you have put here more apt for more counter attacking side whether when we have more bodies in the back you'll struggle a bit. If Mendieta goes wide there goes your best creativity source in the middle.

I'd like to keep to our strengths rather than finding holes in some of your players roles and the way they are expected to move around as we have have build our team based on those strengths.

 

[Enigma_87]

I really don't agree. The reason Mendieta twice won UEFA midfielder of the year and was the beating heart behind a team that reached two consecutive Champions League finals was because he married graft with craft. His energy levels were exceptional and his huge defensive contributions made an already stingy Valencia side even harder to break down. Imagine your most creative player also having the work rate and hussle of the typical watercarrier at the base of midfield? That was Mendieta.

that description is quite apt for Modric as well. And from examples like the game against Atletico above you can see him both ends and being one(if not the best) in defensive department as well.
Schneider has played in a CL final as well and his general contribution as well as defensive one(he even played as a side back from time to time) shouldn't be overlooked IMO. Not to take anything from Mendieta, but Schneider has that graft and craft as well.

Lucio certainly had the reputation of a swashbuckling centre-half who loved to career forward and overload the midfield. An excellent defender though, undoubtedly one of the best in the draft. It comes back to fit as Balu highlighted. You'd need a lot of cover to get that version of him, the other Serie A version played more with his handbrake on. Helmer/Conte could do some of that defensive covering but it's not as convincing as an anchor that excelled in dropping back in or a full-back that naturally tucks into a three. Not really a big issue, but something that, worst-case scenario, could lead to a goal.

which goes to show that you can put that handbrake on for him in this game, which was the whole reason for the debate.

I think this is a fair take: there is a lot to like about Engima/Snow's diamond and attack.

There is a couple of critical mismatches:

• the control exerted by Davids and Mendieta in midfield - I think that's clear that they will own that area given what they're up against
• the knots Littbarski will tie Marcelo into
• the sheer acceleration of prime Kaka against a sort-of-prime Mascherano.

I think you have missed Shevchenko and Villa against Aldo's defence. Sheva's record against them is great and there is also Villa into the mix who is the best partner he'd ever have in that set up.

I think in this game we will win it on the basis of outscoring the opponent.

 

[Enigma_87]

Ah feck it. This was very hard to decide but opted for an Aldo/Stain lead for now and gave them my vote but I might retract it if EnigmaSnow will convince me

That's fair take mate, but IMO I don't think in a congested area that ALdo/Stain set up will work that well. It is more set up for counter attacking football, as also noted in the write up, while if we hit them on the counter we have the players to do so. We can soak pressure and I don't think they will be creative enough to unlock our defence more times, than we do with theirs. Lucio and Helmer IMO given their playing styles are also a great pair to negate Makaay presence in the box, while I'm not sure Montero/Angloma/Ferrara can handle Villa and Sheva the same way. You can see from what Downcast posted above how Sheva with his movement created space and scored against that defence. Villa does practically the same, so we have the same danger coming through both ways from 2 strikers. Added with Kaka's edge on Mascherano utilizing space I think it would be enough to outscore them.

I think our set up does what does best - it's build around our strengths and we we do know our strengths and have the players to capitalize on that. We have that gameplan to focus on what we have to do to win the game rather than worry about what Aldo/Stain team can manage in their end.

At the end it's goals that will win you the game and we have the advantage there(dare to say big advantage there).

 

[Gio]

that description is quite apt for Modric as well. And from examples like the game against Atletico above you can see him both ends and being one(if not the best) in defensive department as well.
Schneider has played in a CL final as well and his general contribution as well as defensive one(he even played as a side back from time to time) shouldn't be overlooked IMO. Not to take anything from Mendieta, but Schneider has that graft and craft as well.

I'm not playing down Modric, but he is up against a different class of box-to-box midfielder than what he's faced in his own career. In a diamond you need your side-central midfielders to have exceptional legs to cover out wide off the ball. He's got good legs, but exceptional ones? I'm not so sure.

which goes to show that you can put that handbrake on for him in this game, which was the whole reason for the debate.

Well yes to what extent we admit Serie A Lucio when it's Bundesliga Lucio is a different question. But I'm fairly relaxed about that one all in all and don't really see him as a liability in the context of this draft.

I think you have missed Shevchenko and Villa against Aldo's defence. Sheva's record against them is great and there is also Villa into the mix who is the best partner he'd ever have in that set up.

I did say there was a lot to like about your attack and diamond. As a mismatch though, it's not as compelling because Aldo/Stain do have a very solid back four. All of your front three are certainly capable of scoring though that's for sure - the previous footage there is relevant (although Ciro is a bit past his best in fairness).

 

[The Stain]

You use Mendieta/Davids out wide in that description while in the same time you use them in the center. All players move so if yours move ours will do the same. I don't see any numerical advantage you will have going forward, which IMO is essential on how we will defend. The most counter attacking it will be from our side, not yours. I can see that set up that you have put here more apt for more counter attacking side whether when we have more bodies in the back you'll struggle a bit. If Mendieta goes wide there goes your best creativity source in the middle.

I'd like to keep to our strengths rather than finding holes in some of your players roles and the way they are expected to move around as we have have build our team based on those strengths.

Look. When we defend it's tightly knit and when we win back possession we move wider cohesively like the butterfly spreading it's wings. Only natural for Mendieta to link up with Litti and vice versa on the other wing. Whether you like it or not, you are at the most vulnerable on the wings.

It doesn't stop Mendieta and Davids from playing through the middle as well, another area where there are defensive question-marks in your team. This happens to be were we excell. That, along with the other arguments i've made today and @Aldo yesterday, is why i think we win the tactical battle.

From the last few posts you've made, much of it are hollow arguments that fall flat when you read ours. Your only argument is about your strikers and as much as they are great, your team as a whole doesn't cut it against this opposition.

 

[Enigma_87]

I'm not playing down Modric, but he is up against a different class of box-to-box midfielder than what he's faced in his own career. In a diamond you need your side-central midfielders to have exceptional legs to cover out wide off the ball. He's got good legs, but exceptional ones? I'm not so sure.


Well yes to what extent we admit Serie A Lucio when it's Bundesliga Lucio is a different question. But I'm fairly relaxed about that one all in all and don't really see him as a liability in the context of this draft.


I did say there was a lot to like about your attack and diamond. As a mismatch though, it's not as compelling because Aldo/Stain do have a very solid back four. All of your front three are certainly capable of scoring though that's for sure - the previous footage there is relevant (although Ciro is a bit past his best in fairness).

Well really for that reason we picked players with exceptional teamwork and work rate. I think that can be said for the whole midfield + Marcelo and Cafu - all have great engines that can cover a lot of ground and are great athletes. I think everybody can contribute in the defensive line and with Masch staying back I can see us having numerical advantage when defending especially when soaking pressure, which IMO is how the match will go on. We'll battle it out in midfield while keeping shape in defence and hitting them on a counter most of the time. We can keep our lines and our defensive line IMO is solid enough to withstand pressure and cope with Aldo/Stain biggest attacking threat in Makaay.

I think Villa dropping left will exploit Angloma, he'd get the better off him most of the time if they are one on one and thus create advantage and freeing up space.

 

[Enigma_87]

Look. When we defend it's tightly knit and when we win back possession we move wider cohesively like the butterfly spreading it's wings. Only natural for Mendieta to link up with Litti and vice versa on the other wing. Whether you like it or not, you are at the most vulnerable on the wings.

It doesn't stop Mendieta and Davids from playing through the middle as well, another area where there are defensive question-marks in your team. This happens to be were we excell. That, along with the other arguments i've made today and @Aldo yesterday, is why i think we win the tactical battle.

From the last few posts you've made, much of it are hollow arguments that fall flat when you read ours. Your only argument is about your strikers and as much as they are great, your team as a whole doesn't cut it against this opposition.

I don't think so at all. All I'm saying is that we're playing to our strengths rather to continuously look for loopholes. For example Villa vs Angloma when he drops on the left, you can easily call it a mismatch. Mendieta going wide who is your main creative midfielder in the center and so forth.

Our route to goal is clear and really proven in real life:



We know what we have to do, we play as a unit and we have the players to execute that gameplan to perfection.

We don't have a single goalscoring threat but a lot of options from left, right and center. It's not like we're banging on having one route to goal.

Off to do some work, good luck guys will see how this goes later on, real life issues calling up.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

That's fair take mate, but IMO I don't think in a congested area that ALdo/Stain set up will work that well. It is more set up for counter attacking football, as also noted in the write up, while if we hit them on the counter we have the players to do so. We can soak pressure and I don't think they will be creative enough to unlock our defence more times, than we do with theirs. Lucio and Helmer IMO given their playing styles are also a great pair to negate Makaay presence in the box, while I'm not sure Montero/Angloma/Ferrara can handle Villa and Sheva the same way. You can see from what Downcast posted above how Sheva with his movement created space and scored against that defence. Villa does practically the same, so we have the same danger coming through both ways from 2 strikers. Added with Kaka's edge on Mascherano utilizing space I think it would be enough to outscore them.

I think our set up does what does best - it's build around our strengths and we we do know our strengths and have the players to capitalize on that. We have that gameplan to focus on what we have to do to win the game rather than worry about what Aldo/Stain team can manage in their end.

At the end it's goals that will win you the game and we have the advantage there(dare to say big advantage there).

My problem with your side is that you just don't look like playing your cards right. You keep insisting Modric is being perfectly suited for the role, which he isn't because he's not strong enough. And you keep saying Modric will get the ball and beat Davids/Mendieta to keep possession and move to the attack, which he can based on his skills, but he won't based on the way this match will actually setup.

I'd much rather see you concede the fact that your midfield won't be in control, because it won't and your plan is hitting them on the counters. You have to understand, conceding the midfield battle doesn't necessarily mean conceding the entire match like most people tend to look at in these drafts, and your power is on the counters with the speed and technique of your front three which are born for this role. If you wouldn't have so much effort wasted on trying to convince people Modric and Schneider are perfect for this role and have a work rate similar to Davids' and Mendieta's, I'd be much more convinced that it might work because counter attacking football can work. I might have criticism for it like "Marcelo isn't good enough at defending for this type of football" but it would turn the argument to whats actually going on in the pitch rather than "what player has better workrate" arguments.

From the last few posts you've made, much of it are hollow arguments that fall flat when you read ours. Your only argument is about your strikers and as much as they are great, your team as a whole doesn't cut it against this opposition.

But that's my problem with your arguments Stain and why I'm not yet convinced with holding that vote I gave you two. You've done great job arguing it so far and I think you're touching most of the right spots, apart from Lucio that I agree he's inclined to go forward but I don't think he will in this match because they'll be mostly pinned back. But the problem is, the fact that besides the front 3 rest of that team "doesn't cut it" doesn't necessarily equals them losing. For me so far your team is leading because the opposition is trying to force his way to the match instead of using his strengths, but if he'll be more tactically wise and adjust his tactics to the way this match is playing out I think that front three can hurt you bad.

 

[Gio]

I think Villa dropping left will exploit Angloma, he'd get the better off him most of the time if they are one on one and thus create advantage and freeing up space.

Again I think Angloma is getting under-rated here. He's not really featured in this debate, but he was a hell of a player as well. Three times in the ESM team of the year is some going when you're competing with Thuram, Cafu and Zanetti.

 

[Enigma_87]

My problem with your side is that you just don't look like playing your cards right. You keep insisting Modric is being perfectly suited for the role, which he isn't because he's not strong enough. And you keep saying Modric will get the ball and beat Davids/Mendieta to keep possession and move to the attack, which he can based on his skills, but he won't based on the way this match will actually setup.

I'd much rather see you concede the fact that your midfield won't be in control, because it won't and your plan is hitting them on the counters. You have to understand, conceding the midfield battle doesn't necessarily mean conceding the entire match like most people tend to look at in these drafts, and your power is on the counters with the speed and technique of your front three which are born for this role. If you wouldn't have so much effort wasted on trying to convince people Modric and Schneider are perfect for this role and have a work rate similar to Davids' and Mendieta's, I'd be much more convinced that it might work because counter attacking football can work. I might have criticism for it like "Marcelo isn't good enough at defending for this type of football" but it would turn the argument to whats actually going on in the pitch rather than "what player has better workrate" arguments.

I don't want is to keep possession mate. I was not sure how will Aldo/Stain set up hence I thought this might go 50-50 in terms of possession as after I saw their previous game they were more instructed on going on a counter. That's why I asked repeatedly ALdo yesterday, whether they will play possession based or counter attacking approach because I can't see it both ways.

As I already said we're perfectly fine soaking pressure and that's really one of my issues with Aldo/Stain line - if they have the ball in a congested area where Makaay IMO has 2 CB that are excellent in the air and also strong and on the ground I don't see that much creativity coming in tight spaces. Their side is built better for counter attacking and that's how they set up in their game against KM.

For Schneider and Modric the whole work rate and strength debate is purely to address of looking "little weight" and holding their own in that midfield battle. I'm not obsessed on possession and I'd much rather always see and like direct style approach without too much possession. This is why I am United fan as well as this is how we played under Fergie(in the beginning).

They will enjoy more possession as a whole but that doesn't necessary mean that we won't put a battle in midfield.

 

[The Stain]

Well really for that reason we picked players with exceptional teamwork and work rate. I think that can be said for the whole midfield + Marcelo and Cafu - all have great engines that can cover a lot of ground and are great athletes. I think everybody can contribute in the defensive line and with Masch staying back I can see us having numerical advantage when defending especially when soaking pressure, which IMO is how the match will go on. We'll battle it out in midfield while keeping shape in defence and hitting them on a counter most of the time. We can keep our lines and our defensive line IMO is solid enough to withstand pressure and cope with Aldo/Stain biggest attacking threat in Makaay.

I think Villa dropping left will exploit Angloma, he'd get the better off him most of the time if they are one on one and thus create advantage and freeing up space.

He's the main finisher but to call him our main threat i'm not sure about. Makaay is the lethal lurker here, not a poacher as such but he had a knack of being at the right place at the right time. Hell of a shot on him. He was also a threat when it comes to breaking offside traps and pouncing on the opportunities given. Constantly pressing his markers. I see similarities with Suarez in that respect. I've gone through our biggest threats and that is our advantage in CM and our wing-play.

But that's my problem with your arguments Stain and why I'm not yet convinced with holding that vote I gave you two. You've done great job arguing it so far and I think you're touching most of the right spots, apart from Lucio that I agree he's inclined to go forward but I don't think he will in this match because they'll be mostly pinned back. But the problem is, the fact that besides the front 3 rest of that team "doesn't cut it" doesn't necessarily equals them losing. For me so far your team is leading because the opposition is trying to force his way to the match instead of using his strengths, but if he'll be more tactically wise and adjust his tactics to the way this match is playing out I think that front three can hurt you bad.

Cheers. My point is we are more solid as a cohesive unit and i'm sure i've made that clear. We're set up in a way to hinder their main threats. I believe we have more varied ways of hurting their team than the other way around. Our players fit our tactics in a better way and that's why i think you voted for us but if they can convince you otherwise then fair play.

 

[Enigma_87]

Again I think Angloma is getting under-rated here. He's not really featured in this debate, but he was a hell of a player as well. Three times in the ESM team of the year is some going when you're competing with Thuram, Cafu and Zanetti.

I think Villa should get the best in that battle tho. As good as he was, Villa is simply better in that battle and one on one. Not saying Angloma is sheep or something of course, just I feel that Aldo/Stain could've upgraded on him in the reinforcement round with a more solid RB and there were options there.

 

[The Stain]

I think Villa should get the best in that battle tho. As good as he was, Villa is simply better in that battle and one on one. Not saying Angloma is sheep or something of course, just I feel that Aldo/Stain could've upgraded on him in the reinforcement round with a more solid RB and there were options there.

Angloma is final worthy.

 

[Enigma_87]

Angloma is final worthy.

Dare to disagree. He was 32 years old when he moved to Valencia. He's against prime Villa here. He'll get the better of him more often than not.