I really don't know what else to say. Ask Bayern fans, I've already tagged one, feel free to ask others.
La Liga/Serie A/BuLi Draft - QF Enigma_87/Snow vs Aldo/The Stain
- Thread starter Tuppet
- Start date
http://www.bayernforum.com/personnel-f8/lucio-t195.html
@Enigma_87 @VivaJanuzaj @Boycott @Tuppet
Check the first post in this thread.
@Enigma_87 @VivaJanuzaj @Boycott @Tuppet
Check the first post in this thread.
I don't think @Aldo should have some grudge nor am I. I always value his input and I think generally there is good debate going on. Same with Tuppet in the last game. I just don't want to go into circles with the same argument over and over again. I think both made our cases so it's up to the voters to decide. Otherwise we'll come back to this argument with each sides having their own opinion.
I may lose this game, but at least I'm proud of my memory! 
No harm done buddy. None whatsoever.
Likewise, you've conducted yourself brilliantly previously and now, full respect.
Yeah I didn't mean 'keeping the ball' in a Van Gaal manner, but I just think the game will flow towards you trying to break his defence when he sits deeper rather than an open game in midfield. That's why I think his defence, even if gung-ho in personnel, won't be able to play gung ho against you which won't give you too much joy from it. On the positive side, the fact that Marcelo won't be able to push too much forward will definitely be an advantage to you not dealing with that and hurting him where he's weak.
I agree about everything you say about Modric, but it just misses the point a bit. In most matches his effectiveness on both sides would be important, but on this match your players are better of passing beyond him, because yeah, he can evade Davids a couple of times surely, but that doesn't mean that's the play you want to go with or your players will effectively go with. And that's why I wouldn't pair him with Kaka, unless you want to go with a bit more build up or your against a light midfield.
And I don't need a compilation to know how brilliant he is
http://www.bayernforum.com/personnel-f8/lucio-t195.html
@Enigma_87 @VivaJanuzaj @Boycott @Tuppet
Check the first post in this thread.
Most of the first page is complimentary.
This is not my battle to fight so I'll leave it to you
http://www.bayernforum.com/personnel-f8/lucio-t195.html
@Enigma_87 @VivaJanuzaj @Boycott @Tuppet
Check the first post in this thread.
I like this one better
Very pleased with it. Sometimes it's hard to tell tone from these arguments and from the side both managers seem infuriated while they're just going at it as a part of the game.
http://www.bayernforum.com/personnel-f8/lucio-t195.html
@Enigma_87 @VivaJanuzaj @Boycott @Tuppet
Check the first post in this thread.
You could pull so many like these from the caf about so many players.Off to bed. Will decide my vote tomorrow.
At least, now you don't think I was lying to win a draft game.I like this one better
Hopefully. Please don't make me dig deeper into the internet!
Well, the point of posting that was to say I wasn't making stuff up or anything, as Pat said earlier and others, it's one of the most visible characteristics from his time at Bayern.
Off to bed. Will decide my vote tomorrow.
Whether it will have an impact on this game is upto you to decide but it's certainly far from ideal while having Marcelo next to him. Littbarski and Mendieta will get a lot of opportunities here.
Yeah I didn't mean 'keeping the ball' in a Van Gaal manner, but I just think the game will flow towards you trying to break his defence when he sits deeper rather than an open game in midfield. That's why I think his defence, even if gung-ho in personnel, won't be able to play gung ho against you which won't give you too much joy from it. On the positive side, the fact that Marcelo won't be able to push too much forward will definitely be an advantage to you not dealing with that and hurting him where he's weak.
I agree about everything you say about Modric, but it just misses the point a bit. In most matches his effectiveness on both sides would be important, but on this match your players are better of passing beyond him, because yeah, he can evade Davids a couple of times surely, but that doesn't mean that's the play you want to go with or your players will effectively go with. And that's why I wouldn't pair him with Kaka, unless you want to go with a bit more build up or your against a light midfield.
And I don't need a compilation to know how brilliant he is
Well we have chosen him because IMO in some areas he's a bit of combination between Seedorf and Pirlo with whom Kaka played. I mean he shares a lot from each. It's a bit of a balance thing and IMO not many in the same class in the draft. Sure we can pair him with another DM or holding midfielder which will make look extra solid on paper, but each player brings his own into the team and in a diamond formation with having a lot of players in the middle we need some that are also good operating in wide areas. For example we could go with Ballack who on paper is great partner but we'll lose either Kaka influence on the game or the Schneider ability to operate wide and also combine with Cafu.
Of course there aren't perfect teams, even in an all time 11 you will find flaws in character or roles but IMO having a midfield of Conte/Schneider/Modric is close to what we want to achieve here, as all can put a defensive shift but also all can participate in possession and strive under pressure which is key for us. Modric and Schneider are players like that.
Of course, I haven't said a bad word about his quality. All the criticism has been in regards to his team setup.
Having said that, he wasn't as good at Bayern as he was at Inter, without a doubt.
It's natural to be competitive during the games and that's part of the respect you have against the one you are up to. I respect Aldo's opinion and as a poster as well and if we're up against doesn't change the fact.
It's natural for everyone who played the game since you hit the age when you can count the score. Naturally you want to win
I'm not trying to get it personal to be fair that's why I'd like to steer it in different direction, and your point and concern for Modric was a good one that's why I addressed it. Naturally if our tactics is challenged I'll try to explain in more details our set up and that might sound defensive, but it's not like that.
I think we are arguing in different channels to be fair. I'm not saying he didn't go forward, not at all. He used to, and was darn good, but it's not that ever since he touched the ball he stormed forward, it's not like that. He did it occasionally.
However I think it's fair to say that being a captain of quite a few sides he has some tactical discipline and is clever enough to follow his manager's simple instructions.
That's my point.None taken mate, I'm off to bed, will continue in the morning
EDIT:
finally just to point out in our team (that I forgot in the op) in terms of balance and working together we have Lucio and Schneider playing together at Bayer, Kaka/Sheva/Cafu for Milan, Marcelo and Modric for Real. Only Conte, Villa and Helmer are new to each other in this set up, which forms nice pairs in terms of understanding all round
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The fact that he did, is enough for me. It was never all the time, but a lot of times it was at times when he simply disregarded the defensive responsibility and went forward. And its not even the attacking goal scoring runs, it's basically him stepping out of defense to end up in a DM position to win the ball, and THAT he did quite often, and specially in CL games. Quite recall him making such errors in CL games.
Discipline isn't something I'd associate with his time at Bayern. He had a blood and thunder approach and simply did what had to be done, no nonsense. At times that was good, at times, pretty dangerous. And, it did cost Bayern crucial goals more than once.
Nah that goal was for Leverkusen.
I don't think his role here is too dissimilar from Croatia where he's got Kovacic in front of him being the more direct attacker. The main thing is that he's a key outlet in transitioning from defense to attack. He's the kind of player that you can pass the ball to and be safe of not losing it meaning that if space get's too tight in the middle he'll be able to get the ball out of pressure. There's really no catching him off guard with a sudden pressure which Mendieta or Davids will no doubt do, especially Davids. He'll just turn away from their challenge or get the free kick. Meanwhile space will open up elsewhere.
That's really what I see Modric doing. Taking on pressure in midfield, allowing space to open elsewhere and be able to get the ball there. Mendieta or Davids can't really allow any mistakes because that leaves a deadly trio behind them. I think Modrid will be in the same bracket as Mendieta. He doesn't get his goals from set pieces or penalties like Mendieta but if he gets an opportunity he's a serious threat outside the box. He might be the best MC in today's game with Iniesta being over the hill.
In my eyes the weakness in AldoStain's setup is Mascherano because like you said he's not good enough to contain Kaka, it's not prime DMC Mascherano either and he hardly contributes anything in attack which makes defending for our side easier. I wouldn't often consider Mascherano a weakness but given the criteria and how they are set up vs our setup I don't think he offers much.
He might not be able to shut him down but he's more than good enough in this role to put enough brakes on him throughout the course of the game. Certainly more resistance than either of Davids, Mendieta or Littbarski are likely to face.
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Done.
I think Lucio would excel with no nonsense defender. Never rated him for his defending. Helmer and Marcelo are 'meh', and VdS at Juve is even worse. Cafu was the only bright spark in that defence. Then there's Conte as a DM, that I think it's the position where he's just an ok player. But the team has nice midfield and incredible attack, full of creativities and variance.
For the other team, replacing Henry with Reus is a bit downgrade. And there's a lack of maestro to control the game. On the other hand, that midifield and defence are dare I say, the strongest/solid in the entire draft so far (well, except Candela).
I have preference of who I'd like to watch, but it is hard to pick who'd win the game.
For the other team, replacing Henry with Reus is a bit downgrade. And there's a lack of maestro to control the game. On the other hand, that midifield and defence are dare I say, the strongest/solid in the entire draft so far (well, except Candela).
I have preference of who I'd like to watch, but it is hard to pick who'd win the game.
What the feck happened here? I only read the tags and a few other posts, no time to read the whole thread, so here's my short take on it:
Lucio next to Marcelo is a bit like the the Passarella next to Roberto Carlos discussion we had so often, just a level or two in quality below them. You kinda need to trust the centerback to act a bit against his instinct. Can he do it for a game? Well, maybe sometimes. Lucio sure loved to move forward a bit. Leverkusen had it covered very well with Ramelow dropping back in a very disciplined DM/sweeper role.
Lucio next to Marcelo is a bit like the the Passarella next to Roberto Carlos discussion we had so often, just a level or two in quality below them. You kinda need to trust the centerback to act a bit against his instinct. Can he do it for a game? Well, maybe sometimes. Lucio sure loved to move forward a bit. Leverkusen had it covered very well with Ramelow dropping back in a very disciplined DM/sweeper role.
Aye, that's what I told him as well, it's not Lucio as much as lack of cover on either side that could hurt him.
And it's not like we don't have anyone to exploit that space, Littbarski will absolutely rip into it.
I agree with Aldo that Engima's MF is problematic. He needs to replace one of Modric/Schnider with a B2B midfielder. But his attacking prowess is too good to overlook here. The front 3 are final ready IMO, supplemented by Marcelo and Cafu on the wings and Modric capable of creating as much as any CM. In comparison, Aldo's attack seems a bit lacking other than Littbarski. I guess it comes down to the fact that I don't rate Reus as much as others. So overall, think Enigma knicks this on goals.
Much as I like AldoStains team and think theyre decently matched, I'd want to watch Snow's team play 8 times out of 10. Vote goes to Snow.
What happened here?
So, we're down a few votes. We can turn it around.
It's probably been mentioned before but..
So, we're down a few votes. We can turn it around.
It's probably been mentioned before but..
- We have a more cohesive team. No real weakness in any department. Questions must be asked if that goes for the opposition. The central defence/Conte in that role/Marcelo/Schneider..
- Enigma's defence is really underwhelming. Our front trio will do damage.
- 4-3-3 is superior to the diamond. Our wings will be the decisive factor in the game. Especially on the right wing.
- Biggest mismatches on the pitch are Littbarski vs Marcelo and Davids vs Schneider.
- His attack is very good but our tactics are better suited to handle his threats than vice versa. It will be absolutely congested through the middle of the pitch and i don't feel his wing-backs will be able to prove decisive in this match against our wings.
- Our main weapon is the interplay of two-time European midfielder of the year Mendieta and Littbarski, they're up againt defensively suspect Modric/Marcelo. Conte is supposed to run over and help but this would just open up more space for Makaay and Davids to do damage. Not to mention an attacking-minded Cafu leaving the underwhelming central duo of Lucio+Helmer with a
huge task. Not to forget that van der Sar had a horrible time in Italy..
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Who's that van der Saar guy in goal by the way? On a United forum, really? Ffs, shouldn't you at least get the names of your beloved former players right?
I know, right? Should cost a few votes
Oh wait, Juve vaanderrsaar is in Snow's team? I might have to rethink this. That was a poor pick.
GOod catch. Was just a typo, below it is correct linked to the profile.
@Tuppet can you please update the OP:
I think we have discussed it a lot in our previous game. Van der Sar time in Italy was pretty controversial and was overblown in the media. He was still the keeper that conceded the least amount of goals in the league for 2 seasons and especially in the first one he was pretty consistent. I don't think there is much of a difference having in mind the one on the other side of the half and won't be decisive in this game.
I think Lucio can be disciplined enough to do so, as already discussed in the thread for many times. Lucio is intelligent player and can sacrifice this part of his game for just one match. I'm not denying he went forward a bit and he had excellent dribbling ability not to mention it was pretty hard to dispossess him. However we won't be needing this part of his game in this match so as numerous other examples I'm sure he'll be able to restrain himself give his instructions.
The one on the other side has the third least average goals conceded per games in the BuLi after Neuer and Kahn. Notta so bad, eh.
And the on in others least in Seria A when there was Buffon, Toldo and the likes. He's solid enough to do the job and as you said i our last game against tuppet, you were pretty much ok with that
thanks, @Tuppet
I must have been drunkAnd the on in others least in Seria A when there was Buffon, Toldo and the likes. He's solid enough to do the job and as you said i our last game against tuppet, you were pretty much ok with that
thanks, @Tuppet
What happened here?
So, we're down a few votes. We can turn it around.
It's probably been mentioned before but..
- We have a more cohesive team. No real weakness in any department. Questions must be asked if that goes for the opposition. The central defence/Conte in that role/Marcelo/Schneider..
- Enigma's defence is really underwhelming. Our front trio will do damage.
- 4-3-3 is superior to the diamond. Our wings will be the decisive factor in the game. Especially on the right wing.
- Biggest mismatches on the pitch are Littbarski vs Marcelo and Davids vs Schneider.
- His attack is very good but our tactics are better suited to handle his threats than vice versa. It will be absolutely congested through the middle of the pitch and i don't feel his wing-backs will be able to prove decisive in this match against our wings.
- Our main weapon is the interplay of two-time European midfielder of the year Mendieta and Littbarski, they're up againt defensively suspect Modric/Marcelo. Conte is supposed to run over and help but this would just open up more space for Makaay and Davids to do damage. Not to mention an attacking-minded Cafu leaving the underwhelming central duo of Lucio+Helmer with a
huge task. Not to forget that van der Sar had a horrible time in Italy..
I think I have to disagree with either of those points.
1. Conte/Marcelo/Schneider are really in the best zones that they operate. They are in lot similar roles that operated in their club teams so I don't see any issues there. I don't think we have a real weakness as well, as without a designated #10 Conte has a bit of a free time to help out additionally Marcelo and in the middle, he's not up Riquelme or Balakov like in the first game.
2. Our defence consists of the best RB in the draft and also a CB who excelled at any level he played with a solid, dependable defender who was one of the best Bayern had and also a starter for a team that won 3 BuLi's in that period(Bayern). He's a disciplined CB who excels in the air and suited well to negate Makaay threat.
3. It's not always the case. A lot depends on formation and personel. We have Milan in that time playing christmas tree in a lot similar formation that is the one above with 3 of those players there as well. Our right wing also should edge it as Angloma is probably the worst player on the pitch.
4. I think Cafu against either Reus/Angloma in defence/attack is the biggest mismatch on the pitch easily. None are in the same class.
5. I don't think your defence is good enough to counter Shevchenko/Kaka/Villa. There's a good reason to back that claim - Sheva alone had 6 in 8 during the time Montero and Ferrara played their trade in Juve, and he didn't have remotely close players around him in attack compared to Kaka and Villa. Kaka and Sheva also is a brilliant, but also proven partnership. And there is Villa who is one of the most lethal attackers in La Liga of all time, and at the same time one of the best at creating chances for himself and others.
6. Compared to ours I think yours looks a bit underwhelming - Makaay is excellent but easily worst striker on the pitch.
I think the biggest issue in that team is the relative lack of creativity in the middle bar Mendieta. Davids is excellent box to box as well as DM player, but he's not the one you should expect to build your game up. For example Modric strives under pressure and to me having the most dynamic midfielder in Aldo's team press him is rather good thing for us as he will relieve pressure and open spaces. Modric close control is right up there with the best in the game nowadays.
Davids is an excellent enforcer but considering the players on the pitch least goal threat to finish by himself - in a whole season he had 2 goals for Juve at most.
I've said in the last game as well that I feel Aldo/Stain side struggles for creativity in the middle. Masch is a limited in that sense, Davids although having great technique I think will have that concern above and this leaves only Mendieta as the main creative force. Makaay would require a service and IMO his speed was a bit less in his Bayern days and I don't think he can beat Lucio for pace or Helmer/Lucio in the air.
For all the talk of our defence I think our team is well equipped in dealing with Aldo/Stain's attack, on the other hand his back line will have the toughest job containing 3 of the best attackers in the last 15 years or so that are linking up pretty good as well.
Our defence for sure will have the easier job containing Aldo's front three.
I must have been drunk
nice one, but no you were pretty much ok so no need for backtracking
That being said I shared the same concerns in your previous game with that midfield that if Mendieta is having difficulties you'll get the service cut for your trio and in this way limiting your creativity in the middle. Masch is underwhelming in that area, that is the reason why we didn't go for him but also have a player in Conte's mold who can participate in the build up as well.
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I stand firm with what i wrote.
How does a team consisting of Candela/Mendieta/Reus/Littbarski struggle with creativity? Makes little sense to me. Even Davids direct forward runs will be hard to keep up with. Mascherano has a job here and that is to help our superior central defenders shut down the middle. Mendieta/Davids will provide excellent shields on their sides.
It just makes sense that even though your front trio is superb, they will have limited space to operate in against our compact defending. This is one aspect of where i think the tactical advantage comes in play (4-3-3 vs diamond). Your wing-backs have a big role to play in this game and i just can't see them being influential enough. They really need to keep an eye on our wings. Cafu is amazing but he faces an epic battle having to attack and at the same time defend alongside Schneider against a flank consisting of Candela/Davids/Reus.
There is no arguing that you have a better striker in Shevchenko but we can't just look at 1v1's. Our front trio are more protected defensively in vital areas on the pitch to enable them to do damage, hence i said we have a more cohesive team. Your wing-backs really have to focus more on defending and i see us reaping the rewards a lot on the counter.
When you have possession you're facing a packed defence with wingers also contributing. When we have possession and can't counter we will aim to switch flanks quickly in order to create space for our wingers. My post above and what i've just written are crucial tactical points which would give us a more than decent chance of winning this.