La Liga - 2014/15

[Skorenzy]

Would say on performances alone Cristiano just edges it, because I think he's been better in Europe so far (though Messi's had tougher tests). Cristiano probably blows him away on stats in league only but I think they're about equal in overall performances domestically, Messi possibly edging it.

I'd say the reverse. In the league Messi has performed to a higher standard from the 1st matchday, it took Cristiano a little bit longer to get started and he's also had a couple of poor/average games to Messi's 1. In the CL they've been about equal, Messi created a lot of chances even though he wasn't very "cutting edge" v APOEL, but he was excellent away to PSG in my opinion, a far harder opponent & venue than Cristiano has faced in his group so far (and if Liverpool's league form is anything to go by, it'll remain that way, no offence ).

Three of the major sports publications (two of them Madrid-based) also rate Messi slightly higher (Marca a lot higher even) when it comes to the league anyway,

Avg ratings La Liga 2014/15, as of Jornada 8

*Marca (scale 0-10)
- Messi, 8.25
- Cristiano, 7.36

*AS (scale 0-4)
- Messi, 2.63
- Cristiano, 2.57

*Mundo Deportivo (scale 0-5)
- Messi, 3.38
- Cristiano, 3.29

With the way Cristiano has been playing recently though, very team-oriented, more consistently creating chances for team mates than before and still scoring hatfuls, he'll soon catch up. The upcoming clásico is going to be extremely interesting in many ways (mainly to see where both teams and both players really stand so far this season).

 

[amolbhatia50k]

wouldn't you say that's reflected in his assists though? 8 to ronaldo 2, while ronaldo obviously stays.higher.up the.pitch hence more goals

I don't think so. Assists only shows the goals he's set up. Firstlly, that wouldn't show the chances he set up. A little like the world cup where he has the highest number of chances created but I don't think it showed in his assists. Secondly, if he's helped them control some games because he tends to also playmake, then that wouldn't show either.

Of course I'm not saying he has created more chances than everyone and run every game barca have played, but I don't think you can just decide between two players like that, especially when they'e very different players.

 

[crappycraperson]

I don't understand how people can disparage goals scored as a stat and at the same time go on about subjective stats such as 'chances created' and 'successful dribbles'. Regardless creating more chances does not suddenly make you a better player. Someone like Beckham created many chances by sheer accuracy of his crosses, does not mean he was better than Ronaldo (either of them) at any stage of his career.

 

[Raul Madrid]

I don't think so. Assists only shows the goals he's set up. Firstlly, that wouldn't show the chances he set up. A little like the world cup where he has the highest number of chances created but I don't think it showed in his assists. Secondly, if he's helped them control some games because he tends to also playmake, then that wouldn't show either.

Of course I'm not saying he has created more chances than everyone and run every game barca have played, but I don't think you can just decide between two players like that, especially when they'e very different players.

Not entering the debate of who is better but chances created does not tell the full story. Pass it a yard to a team-mate who decides to take a shot from 35 yards - well done you have "created a chance". Key pass? Same shite. I don't doubt for a second that Messi is more creative than Ronaldo btw (and at his best much more). Its just that such stats are invariably used without context and by nutters at polar sides of the argument. The dribbling statistics are not the best either as they too lack context like what position on the field a player is dribbling, how many opposition players are close to him, is he dribbling to create a chance for himself or to create space for another before releasing the ball etc.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

I'd say the reverse. In the league Messi has performed to a higher standard from the 1st matchday, it took Cristiano a little bit longer to get started and he's also had a couple of poor/average games to Messi's 1. In the CL they've been about equal, Messi created a lot of chances even though he wasn't very "cutting edge" v APOEL, but he was excellent away to PSG in my opinion, a far harder opponent & venue than Cristiano has faced in his group so far (and if Liverpool's league form is anything to go by, it'll remain that way, no offence ).

Three of the major sports publications (two of them Madrid-based) also rate Messi slightly higher (Marca a lot higher even) when it comes to the league anyway,

Avg ratings La Liga 2014/15, as of Jornada 8

*Marca (scale 0-10)
- Messi, 8.25
- Cristiano, 7.36

*AS (scale 0-4)
- Messi, 2.63
- Cristiano, 2.57

*Mundo Deportivo (scale 0-5)
- Messi, 3.38
- Cristiano, 3.29

With the way Cristiano has been playing recently though, very team-oriented, more consistently creating chances for team mates than before and still scoring hatfuls, he'll soon catch up. The upcoming clásico is going to be extremely interesting in many ways (mainly to see where both teams and both players really stand so far this season).

Fair enough. Messi's 1 poor game being Málaga I take it? Not sure it's the reverse though when we both seem to agree that Messi shades the league campaign

I suppose it's probably not fair for me to properly assess their Champions League form when I've missed 1 of Messi's and all of Cristiano's (seen the highlights of all but can't really say much from that).

 

[crappycraperson]

Not entering the debate of who is better but chances created does not tell the full story. Pass it a yard to a team-mate who decides to take a shot from 35 yards - well done you have "created a chance". Key pass? Same shite. I don't doubt for a second that Messi is more creative than Ronaldo btw (and at his best much more). Its just that such stats are invariably used without context and by nutters at polar sides of the argument.

Yeah it isnot so easy to quantify all those influences anyway. A lot of people will say Brazilian Ronaldo at his peak was better than someone like Zidane at his peak. If you use similar arguments, then while Ronaldo was capable of scoring goals on his own, he could not help his team dominate games like Zidane could. A factor many use to indicate one player better than another.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Not entering the debate of who is better but chances created does not tell the full story. Pass it a yard to a team-mate who decides to take a shot from 35 yards - well done you have "created a chance". Key pass? Same shite. I don't doubt for a second that Messi is more creative than Ronaldo btw (and at his best much more). Its just that such stats are invariably used without context and by nutters at polar sides of the argument.

But that would apply to all players wouldn't it?

I was reading that messi is consistently the highest or one of the highest at key passes per game in la liga. He was last season and this season too. Those stats will change depend on which site you check, but it just shows that going by just goals and assists doesn't make sense, especially when a player is more rounded because those bits won't get covered.

 

[Raul Madrid]

But that would apply to all players wouldn't it?

I was reading that messi is consistently the highest or one of the highest at key passes per game in la liga. He was last season and this season too. Those stats will change depend on which site you check, but it just shows that going by just goals and assists doesn't make sense, especially when a player is more rounded because those bits won't get covered.

Yes, it should apply to everyone. And it should not alone be used to define a player's performance or importance in a match as well as the other statistics that I mentioned. I would also say the same about some goals and assists also.

 

[Mogget]

The guy who has contributed to 21 goals compared to the one who has to 16(19 if you want to keep the same ratio for 12 matches)?

But Messi could quite easily have double the number of his assists if his team mates could finish.

 

[Raul Madrid]

But Messi could quite easily have double the number of his assists if his team mates could finish.

The same applies to Ronaldo (and I acknowledge that Messi is a better player creatively than Ronaldo and when at his best, much more so).

 

[CLARiiON]

Like some much more knowledgeable dude mentioned in past, Lionel Messi is impossible.

 

[Mogget]

The same applies to Ronaldo (and I acknowledge that Messi is a better player creatively than Ronaldo and when at his best, much more so).

Really? I haven't really noticed Ronaldo creating that many chances this season.

 

[Skorenzy]

Really? I haven't really noticed Ronaldo creating that many chances this season.

Easily the most since his debut season at RM (09/10), the stats (Key Passes per game) also back this observation up. Messi has gone up a notch compared to his two previous seasons as well.

@CLARiiON and the only thing missing a bit so far is his shooting accuracy and conversion rate of 2011-13 !

 

[Raul Madrid]

Really? I haven't really noticed Ronaldo creating that many chances this season.

He has. I have been impressed with his all-round performances this season in a lot of games. Reminds me of his performances in 11/12 where his decision making and lack of selfishness was excellent.

 

[Skorenzy]

Vela's assist v Getafe tonight was absolutely exquisite by the way (don't know how La Real still managed to fck that up in the final 4 minutes conceding twice... at home... to Getafe of all teams!), he really deserved that nomination for the LFP awards for last season... I personally had him as 2nd highest rated behind Diego Costa in last season's La Liga, seems LFP agrees with me that he deserves top-3 at least. See if I can dig up my -- for once -- sorta "prophetic" post (although I did also call Osasuna going down at the start of last season!)

edit: hah! found it https://www.redcafe.net/threads/messi-left-out-of-la-liga-starting-xi.391173/page-2#post-15728806

 

[CLARiiON]

Easily the most since his debut season at RM (09/10), the stats (Key Passes per game) also back this observation up. Messi has gone up a notch compared to his two previous seasons as well.

@CLARiiON and the only thing missing a bit so far is his shooting accuracy and conversion rate of 2011-13 !

Yes, both of them improved this season. Messi did miss a few easier chances this season. I am noticing a trend recently that his 2nd performance seemed to be much better compared to 1st half. He seemed to go on a overdrive in the 2nd half (post 60-min mark). That's when most of his goals/assists have come this season.

Maybe I am wrong, but I think Barca is yet to score within the initial 25/30 mins in any match so far.

 

[CLARiiON]

 

[Skorenzy]

Not entering the debate of who is better but chances created does not tell the full story. Pass it a yard to a team-mate who decides to take a shot from 35 yards - well done you have "created a chance". Key pass? Same shite. I don't doubt for a second that Messi is more creative than Ronaldo btw (and at his best much more). Its just that such stats are invariably used without context and by nutters at polar sides of the argument. The dribbling statistics are not the best either as they too lack context like what position on the field a player is dribbling, how many opposition players are close to him, is he dribbling to create a chance for himself or to create space for another before releasing the ball etc.

Agreed. Let's forgo the stat talk and just enjoy some of Messi's most impressive plays so far this season! (I'd add other players but the guy I'm stealing these gifs from only seems to do Messi )


Elche

Spoiler

Athletic

Spoiler

Levante

Spoiler

Granada

Spoiler

PSG

Spoiler

Eibar

Spoiler

Note how often he's using his right foot this season, by the way. Also going on the outside on the RW quite a lot more (like he sometimes did in his younger days and most recently in the latter stages of the WC), probably as a way of compensating for his declining physicality and it's paying off so far.

Yes, both of them improved this season. Messi did miss a few easier chances this season. I am noticing a trend recently that his 2nd performance seemed to be much better compared to 1st half. He seemed to go on a overdrive in the 2nd half (post 60-min mark). That's when most of his goals/assists have come this season.

Maybe I am wrong, but I think Barca is yet to score within the initial 25/30 mins in any match so far.

Yeah, that's right. Barça haven't really shot out of the starting blocks in the majority of their games so far. Their earliest scored goal so far was Messi's equaliser v PSG on 11' but that's the only game in which they've conceded so far... for all other games the earliest was on 26' v Granada and beyond that none before 34'.

 

[Patchbeard]

Like some much more knowledgeable dude mentioned in past, Lionel Messi is impossible.

Really needs to work on those interceptions.

 

[Raul Madrid]

Agreed. Let's forgo the stat talk and just enjoy some of Messi's most impressive plays so far this season! (I'd add other players but the guy I'm stealing these gifs from only seems to do Messi )
Note how often he's using his right foot this season, by the way. Also going on the outside on the RW quite a lot more (like he sometimes did in his younger days and most recently in the latter stages of the WC), probably as a way of compensating for his declining physicality and it's paying off so far.

Those took ages to load . Worth it though.

 

[Eila]

Vela is incredibly unlucky in that he always gets injured in pre-season and takes a while to pick up form. But when on form, he's easily top 3-5 attacking players in La Liga. Last three seasons he closed the season much more strongly than how he started them.

 

[zing]

I wish Bale had been fit for tomorrow and Suarez match fit.

Going to be a cracking game nevertheless.

 

[TheShedEnd]

Sky had a comparison between Messi and Ronaldo in El Clasico earlier. Messi's record is outrageous:

 

[jojojo]

Surprisingly perhaps, there is actually a full Liga program this weekend. Not just one game.

Tonight (from the BBC so all times are UK)
Celta de Vigo v Levante 20:00

Sat 25 Oct 2014 - Spanish La Liga
Real Madrid v Barcelona 17:00
Almería v Ath Bilbao 15:00
Valencia v Elche 19:00
Córdoba v Real Sociedad 21:00
Eibar v Granada CF 21:00

Sun 26 Oct 2014 - Spanish La Liga
Málaga v Rayo Vallecano 11:00
Espanyol v Deportivo de La Coruña 16:00
Sevilla v Villarreal 18:00
Getafe v Atl Madrid 20:00

However there is that match looming over it all. Suarez is expected to play, but not from the start. Bale is out, but Ramos is expected to play and Pepe has got over an injury scare.

Messi is one goal away from equalling Zarra's 59 year old Liga scoring record. Tebas (Liga president) has been talking about an official tribute to him when he breaks the record. There's been a lot of chat about how the Bernabeu would react, with Tebas saying, "They've applauded Ronalidinho and Maradona, why wouldn't they applaud Messi?" Just to add a little extra "morbo" to the fixture.

 

[united_99]

Surprisingly perhaps, there is actually a full Liga program this weekend. Not just one game.

Tonight (from the BBC so all times are UK)
Celta de Vigo v Levante 20:00

Sat 25 Oct 2014 - Spanish La Liga
Real Madrid v Barcelona 17:00
Almería v Ath Bilbao 15:00
Valencia v Elche 19:00
Córdoba v Real Sociedad 21:00
Eibar v Granada CF 21:00

Sun 26 Oct 2014 - Spanish La Liga
Málaga v Rayo Vallecano 11:00
Espanyol v Deportivo de La Coruña 16:00
Sevilla v Villarreal 18:00
Getafe v Atl Madrid 20:00

However there is that match looming over it all. Suarez is expected to play, but not from the start. Bale is out, but Ramos is expected to play and Pepe has got over an injury scare.

Messi is one goal away from equalling Zarra's 59 year old Liga scoring record. Tebas (Liga president) has been talking about an official tribute to him when he breaks the record. There's been a lot of chat about how the Bernabeu would react, with Tebas saying, "They've applauded Ronalidinho and Maradona, why wouldn't they applaud Messi?" Just to add a little extra "morbo" to the fixture.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

Hoping Xavi starts tomorrow. Rakitić has started well at Barça but a well-rested Xavi is still the king, he's showed that in his sporadic appearances this season.

Iniesta hasn't been great overall but I'd pick him too, partly because he links well with Xavi, partly because he's a big game player and partly because he's looked a lot better over the past 2 few games.

 

[TheShedEnd]

Barcelona should keep Mascherano in the holding midfield role. He's considerably better at it than Busquets.

Pique and Mathieu at CB.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

Barcelona should keep Mascherano in the holding midfield role. He's considerably better at it than Busquets.

Pique and Mathieu at CB.

I disagree, I think Mascherano should play at centre back with Piqué on the bench. Wouldn't really want Piqué starting with his erratic form, unless Luis Enrique decides that be wants Mathieu as a left back which doesn't really leave them much choice (Bartra aside).

No point getting into a debate about Busquets though. Beyond the fact that I also think he's not performing as well as he used to we disagree on how good he is, but that's fair enough. Piqué is playing worse than Busquets at the minute, so he should be dropped instead. Assuming Busquets' injury has cleared up anyway.

 

[kouroux]

I don't see how Real won't win this.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

I don't see how Real won't win this.

It's a clásico, you never know. Both teams have generally played well this season but they both have their weaknesses too. Should be a lot of goals anyway.

 

[Borys]

Barca favorites for me. I expect a great game today.

 

[zing]

I don't see how Real won't win this.

Yes. Amazing team in spite of the fact that the central midfield is a little too attacking.

Last season's Real team is one of the best teams I have seen.

 

[Cait Sith]

I don't see how Real won't win this.

Really? Some weaknesses begging to get exploited I feel. How Madrid will set up is pretty much set in stone:

Ronaldo Benzema
Isco Kroos Modric James
Marcelo Ramos Pepe Carvajal
Casillas​

It will be a 4-4-2 with two banks of four squeezing the space between the lines and lurking for counters. It's when they were at their best last season and this season. Slim chance that Ancelotti will pull a surprise and add Khedira into the starting lineup but very unlikely.

A couple of points. Compared to last season at Madrid's best (4-0 vs. Bayern) there is no Di Maria and Bale too is out of the squad. This reduces the direct, pacy counterattacking threats from 3 to 1. Besides Ronaldo no one in that lineup makes runs in behind. I think that suits Barca a lot.

Kroos and Modric will be up against Messi and Iniesta in that central zone infront of Pepe and Ramos. How well will they be able to defend considering neither is a dedicated ball winner but equally important, even if they do put in a once in a lifetime shift, how much will they be able to contribute going forward?

Marcelo is a liability in these fixtures (or in general).

Casillas can pull a Casillas anytime (is "pulling a Casillas" already a thing? ).

Also: Are Madrid really in unbelievable form? This was their fixture list so far:

Against Villarreal only a miracle (and Vietto's finishing) helped them keeping a clean sheet.

Of course at the end of the day it's a Clasico in the Bernabeu and they might just as well run rampant and win comfortably and this post might get quoted after the game accompanied by lots of green smileys. But in theory there a more question marks about Madrid's balance than Barca's I feel.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Really think Illaramiendi should start ahead of one of Kroos/James to give Real a bit more defensive solidity and balance in the middle of the park. Don't think that's going to happen though

 

[jojojo]

Of course at the end of the day it's a Clasico in the Bernabeu and they might just as well run rampant and win comfortably and this post might get quoted after the game accompanied by lots of green smileys. But in theory there a more question marks about Madrid's balance than Barca's I feel.

Indeed.

In fact just the raw numbers of goals For:Against tells a story. Barcelona 22:0 and Real Madrid 30:9. Barcelona aren't playing as convincingly as those numbers make it sound, but Madrid do look that vulnerable a lot of the time. Certainly, Ancelotti's holy grail of balance isn't there yet. That said, Kroos/Modric are starting to look like a real combination and Isco has shown some good form.

It should be a really good match. Probably be a scrappy, irritable, goalless borefest now of course.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

Yes. Amazing team in spite of the fact that the central midfield is a little too attacking.

Last season's Real team is one of the best teams I have seen.

One of the best teams to watch or one of the best in terms of ability, success etc.? Because I don't see how anyone could argue they're one of the best ever when they had such a miserable (in relative terms) league campaign...

Fair enough if it's the former, though.

 

[Skills]

Clasico a bit early today?

 

[Borys]

Bale absence hinders Madrid a lot in el Classico. As @Cait Sith said, it will be only Ronaldo making runs behind the defence. This will make Barca more confident with high back-line I guess, plus their record of no goals conceded is quite impressive. Madrid is scoring for fun, but if they go with Kroos and Modric in the middle I would say Barcelona will win it.

 

[jojojo]

Really think Illaramiendi should start ahead of one of Kroos/James to give Real a bit more defensive solidity and balance in the middle of the park. Don't think that's going to happen though

I wondered if he might go for a three of Khedira/Modric/Kroos but they've not played much together, so it would be an experiment - perhaps not the game for it.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

Clasico a bit early today?

I guess. Not the first time it's been on at 5pm (UK time) and it's been on at 3pm recently too but yeah, it's usually later.

Shame about the stupid broadcasting laws that means Sky can't show the first 15 mins live.