Konrad Laimer

Acrobat7 said:
You said that Bundesliga clubs sell to Bayern cheaply. I am still waiting for examples.

Players who fulfill/run down their contracts and therefore leave for free (or have a release clause) are no examples, since you wanted to show the clubs that bend over for Bayern.

I will even help you and went back all the way to 2017.

These are the players Bayern bought from Bundesliga clubs since 2017:
Sabitzer: €15m
Cuisance: €8m
Arp: €3m
Wagner: €13m
Süle: €20m
Hummels: €35

Who exactly bent over?
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:lol: feck off you are trolling us aren't you. That's like €94m in total and if we add Lewandowski (Free) + Goretzka (Free), Kimmich(€8.50m), Pavard (€35m), Gnabry (€8m), that would be €145.5m for 11 players.

When you went shopping outside bundesliga, you needed to pay €60m on Sane, €80m on Lucas Hernandez, and €41.50m on Tolisso, which cost €181.50 for 3 players, which cost much more than those 11 players you got in Bundesliga. But you get cheap and nothing when you went shopping in Bundesliga, while when EPL and La Liga clubs came for shopping in Bundesliga, those bundesliga clubs rise the price much higher.
 
Acrobat7 said:
I agree that free transfers and release clauses cannot be ignored. I just wanted to point out, that the „Bundesliga clubs sell to Bayern cheaply“ statement is nonsense.

And those prices listed above are not really cheap. Hummels was in the last year of his contract and look at what the others on the list are now doing. Süle at €20m was fair I would say. He wasn’t an established player (and is now leaving Bayern on a free…).
Prices in the Bundesliga are normally lower than in the Premier League.
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True, but I don't think you bought those players on the basis that they'd fail or be mediocre. You are always buying a player when he is desirable. They're certainly not high fees, and then throw in the end of contract acquisitions and it's not a bad picture.

If we bought Kalvin Phillips for 30 million, people would say that's value at the price. If he was diabolical you still couldn't really say we'd done that poorly to get a player from the league for that money. The difference being of course...that's never, ever going to happen. The other side to that is your chances of getting Phillips, Rice or say Grealish on a free or in their last year is not so good because the clubs can afford to throw money at them.

So yeah, I'd say it's just a completely different commercial climate for players and it's a lot more favourable to Bayern relative to that league than it is for us. But we should get out there and do better scouting to be honest.
 
Abraxas said:
So yeah, I'd say it's just a completely different commercial climate for players and it's a lot more favourable to Bayern relative to that league than it is for us. But we should get out there and do better scouting to be honest.
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That's kind of an incomplete view on the system, because the reason that numbers are higher in the PL is that every club has more money to begin with. So the relative cost of Bayern paying €30m for a player isn't necessarily the same relative cost of United paying €30m for a player.
 
do.ob said:
That's kind of an incomplete view on the system, because the reason that numbers are higher in the PL is that every club has more money to begin with. So the relative cost of Bayern paying €30m for a player isn't necessarily the same relative cost of United paying €30m for a player.
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That's the reason they get players for a lower price from other domestic clubs, of course. However, Bayern are not paupers. I don't think the relative value of their purchases is altogether different to ours, and if it is it's probably not by a large margin. The output of all this is the results we see in the Bundesliga. We have one club with financial clout to rival most in Europe versus clubs that by and large do not, and that is leveraged into a position of strength in the transfer market. All fairly common sense stuff. Not criticising it or of a strong opinion on that league, I just think let's call a spade a spade, Bayern do have a nice position with domestic transfers and I think a cursory look at the deals over the last decade would support that.
 
Abraxas said:
That's the reason they get players for a lower price from other domestic clubs, of course. However, Bayern are not paupers. I don't think the relative value of their purchases is altogether different to ours, and if it is it's probably not by a large margin. The output of all this is the results we see in the Bundesliga. We have one club with financial clout to rival most in Europe versus clubs that by and large do not, and that is leveraged into a position of strength in the transfer market. All fairly common sense stuff. Not criticising it or of a strong opinion on that league, I just think let's call a spade a spade, Bayern do have a nice position with domestic transfers and I think a cursory look at the deals over the last decade would support that.
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What I mean is that for example over the last 5 years:
Bayern: gross: €400m, net: €204m
United: gross: €739m, net €532m

So when Bayern have to pay €30m for a player it pains them a lot more (e.g. if you put it as % of overall budget used) than when United pay €30m for a player. And even if you were to say that the same player would cost United €10m more, then it's not necessarily a straight forward answer to say who is better off in relative terms.

When you're just looking at the absolute numbers it's a bit like saying people in some poor(er) country have it easier than people in the West, because they have to pay lower prices at the super market.
 
do.ob said:
What I mean is that for example over the last 5 years:
Bayern: gross: €400m, net: €204m
United: gross: €739m, net €532m

So when Bayern have to pay €30m for a player it pains them a lot more (e.g. if you put it as % of overall budget used) than when United pay €30m for a player. And even if you were to say that the same player would cost United €10m more, then it's not necessarily a straight forward answer to say who is better off in relative terms.

When you're just looking at the absolute numbers it's a bit like saying people in some poor(er) country have it easier than people in the West, because they have to pay lower prices at the super market.
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So what you tried to say here is that the reason why other clubs in Bundesliga sold their players cheaper or nothing to Bayern than to La Liga and EPL is because Bayern net is only 204m. But if United, Chelsea, Barcelona, and etc came in, they would demand much higher fees because those clubs net are 532m or something around that??
 
UNITED ACADEMY said:
So what you tried to say here is that the reason why other clubs in Bundesliga sold their players cheaper or nothing to Bayern than to La Liga and EPL is because Bayern net is only 204m. But if United, Chelsea, Barcelona, and etc came in, they would demand much higher fees because those clubs net are 532m or something around that??
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What I would say is that you are making up fantasy facts and did not understand my post.
 
do.ob said:
What I would say is that you are making up fantasy facts and did not understand my post.
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So what you posted previously still doesn't answer why Bayern always get it so easy and cheap when they are buying players in Bundesliga in comparison to clubs from PL and La Liga when they are buying players in Bundesliga. It's okay, I don't expect Bundesliga fans to answer that.
 
UNITED ACADEMY said:
So what you posted previously still doesn't answer why Bayern always get it so easy and cheap when they are buying players in Bundesliga in comparison to clubs from PL and La Liga when they are buying players in Bundesliga.
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Nothing can explain that, because it's an utterly illogical claim that only exists in your imagination.
 
do.ob said:
Nothing can explain that, because it's an utterly illogical claim that only exists in your imagination.
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I see so it was only my imagination that Bayern got the likes of Kimmich (€8.50m), Pavard (€35m), Gnabry (€8m), while United, Barcelona, Chelsea, and etc had to pay 72m on Sancho, more than 100m on Dembele, 70m on Havertz, and etc.
 
UNITED ACADEMY said:
I see so it was only my imagination that Bayern got the likes of Kimmich (€8.50m), Pavard (€35m), Gnabry (€8m), while United, Barcelona, Chelsea, and etc had to pay 72m on Sancho, more than 100m on Dembele, 70m on Havertz, and etc.
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You do realize how buyout clauses work, don’t you?
Your initial point („“Bundesliga clubs are bending over for Bayern“) remains unproven.
 
Acrobat7 said:
You do realize how buyout clauses work, don’t you?
Your initial point („“Bundesliga clubs are bending over for Bayern“) remains unproven.
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Did Kimmich and Ganarby have €8million buyout clauses?

Genuinely asking. Seems a very random and low buyout clause.
 
LvG gave us Schneiderlin, EtH might give us this guy. We love a one dimensional midfielder.

I’m looking forward to watching him transition to deadwood who’s salary we have to cover as he’s farmed out to Everton on loan in a couple of years.
 
Marwood said:
Did Kimmich and Ganarby have €8million buyout clauses?

Genuinely asking. Seems a very random and low buyout clause.
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A 20 year old Kimmich was bought by Bayern for €8.5m in 2015 after Stuttgart had loaned him out to second division side Leipzig. His market value according to transfermarkt.de was €5m at that time.

The Gnabry deal was a bit strange. Arsenal sold him to Bremen for €5m and Bayern activated a €8m release clause one year later.
 
Acrobat7 said:
You do realize how buyout clauses work, don’t you?
Your initial point („“Bundesliga clubs are bending over for Bayern“) remains unproven.
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Buyout clause to allow Bayern takes the player cheaply. Nice. I wish West Ham do that to Rice.
 
UNITED ACADEMY said:
I see so it was only my imagination that Bayern got the likes of Kimmich (€8.50m), Pavard (€35m), Gnabry (€8m), while United, Barcelona, Chelsea, and etc had to pay 72m on Sancho, more than 100m on Dembele, 70m on Havertz, and etc.
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Isn't that just selection bias? It's not that United, Barcelona and Chelsea had to pay those prices and Bayern would have gotten them cheaper, but rather it's precisely because they were that expensive that Bayern did not or could not buy them.


The flipside of that is that Bayern goes in for the Bundesliga players they can afford, or the ones they see as good value. For example Goretzka was a free agent, but despite being seen as a teenage sensation years before with Bochum, his performances for Schalke were for the most part a long way away from confirming that early hype, yet Bayern went all in on him anyway. In theory nothing is stopping Premier League clubs from highjacking those kind of tranfers, but most clubs focus on their own leagues first before looking elsewhere. Nowadays the top PL clubs do compete with Bayern for the top BL players, but they rarely compete for the tier below. But it does happen more these days, and not just the PL. For instance that same summer when Stuttgart sold Kimmich, who had never even played in the Bundesliga at that stage, they also loaned and then sold Rudiger to Roma for a mere 9m, even though he had already established himself in Stuttgart's first team.


I think it's a bit of a myth that these cheap Bundesliga transfers aren't available to Premier League sides, just for whatever reason that market of (cheaper) somewhat lesser known players has been largely ignored for a long time. On occasion midtable or lower sides in the PL these days take advantage of comparatively cheaper Bundesliga signings, think Rashica to Norwich, Pascal Gross to Brighton, Hojbjerg to Southampton (from Bayern themselves), Merino to Newcastle, Meyer to Crystal Palace, but further up the table you also had Liverpool buying Can for a reasonable price and Matip for free, Sokratis or Kolasinac to Arsenal. I mean even Gundogan was a cheap transfer, once he overcame his injury. Sure not all of these worked out, but neither does every cheap transfer within the Bundesliga, or to Bayern specifically.


Also I wouldn't necessarily call Pavard's transfer cheap, given that his very good 17/18 season was followed by a fairly mediocre season in a Stuttgart side that got relegated. While it's obviously not proof of anything, you can see on transfermarkt that Pavard's market value dropped significantly (40m to 30m) in his last season there; his last season simply wasn't as good as his world cup season. And in general relegated clubs usually aren't in a position to demand exorbitant fees. In that context his transfer fee was hardly out of the ordinary.
 
Boavista said:
Isn't that just selection bias? It's not that United, Barcelona and Chelsea had to pay those prices and Bayern would have gotten them cheaper, but rather it's precisely because they were that expensive that Bayern did not or could not buy them.


The flipside of that is that Bayern goes in for the Bundesliga players they can afford, or the ones they see as good value. For example Goretzka was a free agent, but despite being seen as a teenage sensation years before with Bochum, his performances for Schalke were for the most part a long way away from confirming that early hype, yet Bayern went all in on him anyway. In theory nothing is stopping Premier League clubs from highjacking those kind of tranfers, but most clubs focus on their own leagues first before looking elsewhere. Nowadays the top PL clubs do compete with Bayern for the top BL players, but they rarely compete for the tier below. But it does happen more these days, and not just the PL. For instance that same summer when Stuttgart sold Kimmich, who had never even played in the Bundesliga at that stage, they also loaned and then sold Rudiger to Roma for a mere 9m, even though he had already established himself in Stuttgart's first team.


I think it's a bit of a myth that these cheap Bundesliga transfers aren't available to Premier League sides, just for whatever reason that market of (cheaper) somewhat lesser known players has been largely ignored for a long time. On occasion midtable or lower sides in the PL these days take advantage of comparatively cheaper Bundesliga signings, think Rashica to Norwich, Pascal Gross to Brighton, Hojbjerg to Southampton (from Bayern themselves), Merino to Newcastle, Meyer to Crystal Palace, but further up the table you also had Liverpool buying Can for a reasonable price and Matip for free, Sokratis or Kolasinac to Arsenal. I mean even Gundogan was a cheap transfer, once he overcame his injury. Sure not all of these worked out, but neither does every cheap transfer within the Bundesliga, or to Bayern specifically.


Also I wouldn't necessarily call Pavard's transfer cheap, given that his very good 17/18 season was followed by a fairly mediocre season in a Stuttgart side that got relegated. While it's obviously not proof of anything, you can see on transfermarkt that Pavard's market value dropped significantly (40m to 30m) in his last season there; his last season simply wasn't as good as his world cup season. And in general relegated clubs usually aren't in a position to demand exorbitant fees. In that context his transfer fee was hardly out of the ordinary.
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When I said cheap, I was referring to the top class ones or the talented ones that have great value.

Upamecano was also available with his release clause and yet still chose Bayern over other clubs. Those bundesliga players would love to join Bayern. Who wouldn’t? Bayern are massive club.

But when you look at outside Bundesliga, the players can‘t just dictate their own destiny. It’s the club to decide who can pay as per the club’s demand and they won’t make it easy like the bundesliga clubs do to Bayern for sure.

May be if these bundesliga clubs can start putting much higher release clause or be more ruthless to dictate player’s destiny, the bundesliga could be more competitive and wouldn’t let Bayern took the advantages easily to improve their squad easily. I understand the lack of money from other bundesliga clubs but club should rather not having the player in the first place than giving players what they want like cheap release clause or condition that doesn’t allow the club to sell players in more expensive. Bayern showed they had money to pay 80m on Lucas hernandes and 60m on Sane. Surely, these bundesliga clubs need to stop letting Bayern taking their players cheaply.
 
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UNITED ACADEMY said:
I see so it was only my imagination that Bayern got the likes of Kimmich (€8.50m), Pavard (€35m), Gnabry (€8m), while United, Barcelona, Chelsea, and etc had to pay 72m on Sancho, more than 100m on Dembele, 70m on Havertz, and etc.
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The Pavard fee is aggressively normal for a good, versatile defender who's not good enough going forward as an RB or a physically impressive CB. Presumably great fit in 3 at the back as an RCB.
 
UNITED ACADEMY said:
When I said expensive, I was referring to the top class ones or the talented ones that have great value.

Upamecano was also available with his release clause and yet still chose Bayern over other clubs. Those bundesliga players would love to join Bayern. Who wouldn’t? Bayern are massive club.

But when you look at outside Bundesliga, the players can‘t just dictate their own destiny. It’s the club to decide who can pay as per the club’s demand and they won’t make it easy like the bundesliga clubs do to Bayern for sure.

May be if these bundesliga clubs can start putting much higher release clause or be more ruthless to dictate player’s destiny, the bundesliga could be more competitive and wouldn’t let Bayern took the advantages easily to improve their squad easily. I understand the lack of money from other bundesliga clubs but club should rather not having the player in the first place than giving players what they want like cheap release clause or condition that doesn’t allow the club to sell players in more expensive. Bayern showed they had money to pay 80m on Lucas hernandes and 60m on Sane. Surely, these bundesliga clubs need to stop letting Bayern taking their players cheaply.
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Yeah I kind of agree, especially to the first part. Why wouldn't a player choose Bayern, it's a smart choice to go to a well run club that pays well. But I think that last part is what you're maybe overlooking. For instance Lewandowski was available as a free agent, and also on Real Madrid's radar. If memory serves me right, Bayern were simply courting him earlier , but more importantly I believe they simply offered a very high signing on bonus very early on. Likewise I doubt Goretzka would have been unattainable for the top English sides if they simply outbid Bayern's contract offers, but I doubt others would offer him as much as Bayern did.

As for Upamecano, yeah without release clause he would have been more expensive perhaps, but Konate went to Liverpool for the same amount and many rated him as much or even higher than Upamecano (if it wasn't for his injury record).

Lucas Hernandez is kind of a weird outlier, but as for Sane isn't that exactly what happened? Bayern wanted him before he moved to City for 52m, but weren't willing to pay that price that Schalke demanded at the time. Years later, higher revenue, and Sane having more or less confirmed his talent in the PL, Bayern then did buy him for that amount (+some change).

Also I think you're ignoring the many cheaper transfers Bayern made in the past (from BL clubs but also abroad) that either didn't work out, merely fulfilled their squad purpose (well or not), or seem outright bizarre in hindsight. Like Kirchhoff, Rode, Sinan Kurt, (maybe Roca), Bouna Sarr, Rudy, Cuisance, Pranjic, Braafheid and many more.

It's just somewhat part of their modus operandi to pounce on bargains, especially free agents, (in addition to their slightly more targeted high value targets), so of course occasionally some of these work out really well and then everyone asks themselves how such and such player could be so cheap.
 
Boavista said:
Yeah I kind of agree, especially to the first part. Why wouldn't a player choose Bayern, it's a smart choice to go to a well run club that pays well. But I think that last part is what you're maybe overlooking. For instance Lewandowski was available as a free agent, and also on Real Madrid's radar. If memory serves me right, Bayern were simply courting him earlier , but more importantly I believe they simply offered a very high signing on bonus very early on. Likewise I doubt Goretzka would have been unattainable for the top English sides if they simply outbid Bayern's contract offers, but I doubt others would offer him as much as Bayern did.

As for Upamecano, yeah without release clause he would have been more expensive perhaps, but Konate went to Liverpool for the same amount and many rated him as much or even higher than Upamecano (if it wasn't for his injury record).

Lucas Hernandez is kind of a weird outlier, but as for Sane isn't that exactly what happened? Bayern wanted him before he moved to City for 52m, but weren't willing to pay that price that Schalke demanded at the time. Years later, higher revenue, and Sane having more or less confirmed his talent in the PL, Bayern then did buy him for that amount (+some change).

Also I think you're ignoring the many cheaper transfers Bayern made in the past (from BL clubs but also abroad) that either didn't work out, merely fulfilled their squad purpose (well or not), or seem outright bizarre in hindsight. Like Kirchhoff, Rode, Sinan Kurt, (maybe Roca), Bouna Sarr, Rudy, Cuisance, Pranjic, Braafheid and many more.

It's just somewhat part of their modus operandi to pounce on bargains, especially free agents, (in addition to their slightly more targeted high value targets), so of course occasionally some of these work out really well and then everyone asks themselves how such and such player could be so cheap.
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The reason why Lewandowski didn’t join Real was because Real offered him to sit on the bench as Benzema was the starting XI, I think Real Madrid was his first choice, I remember this was revealed by whoever his agent was at that time. Dortmund could sell Lewandowski for some fees to other clubs not just Real Madrid 2 years before his contract ran out but they refused. Watzke actually revealed that Chelsea were so upset that they refused to sell KDB to Dortmund because Dortmund refused to sell Lewandowski to chelsea when they had the chance before his contract ran out. By the time his contract ran out, Lewandowski already made his own decision to choose which club he would go.

The point these seller clubs can still dictate where the player goes. We forced Heinze to join Real, while he wanted Liverpool. Leeds forced Smith to join United despite of being Leeds fan.

Konate barely even play at RB Leipzig, I remember lot of time last season whenever he was fit, he was on the bench. You would expect player who barely playing like Konate should be cost much less than the ones who plays week in week out like Upamecano.

Lucas for 80m, Tolisso for 40m & Sane for 60m. These are good examples that Bayern still have money to pay expensive fees and they did it if they went shopping outside the bundesliga but if they do it in bundesliga, they always get the cheap ones for top class ones and the top talent ones. Funny thing is Bayern didn’t even need to pay the fees on Sane who already said he wanted to leave city to join Bayern, they could get Sane for free by wait another year like Lewandowski and Goretzka. For some reason they didn’t do the same to Sane like what they usually did in bundesliga. Weird isn’t it how they decided to pay big fees the ones outside the bundesliga but only decided to pay cheap or willing to wait another year to get the player for free if they went shopping in bundesliga. It’s almost like they have massive control in the bundesliga market in both power and knowledge, which is why I called bundesliga is like Bayern academy, letting players be developed and joined (more like promoted to) Bayern for cheap or nothing price.

Didn’t Laimer was linked to leave or something last season or two seasons ago? Once again just like other situation, these clubs somehow not selling their important assets to other clubs when Bayern weren’t willing to pay but instead would rather wait until his transfer value dropped that Bayern could afford him. Of course the player would choose Bayern now since Bayern are big club and Nagelsmann was Laimer’s former manager that he used to work with.
 
Well, there's no chance he's coming here if Bayern are in for him. Onto the next one.
 
No thank you RR.

Watched him play for Austria twice recently once against Scotland , played right midfield in one game, didnt do much at all and was hauled off, was sub next game and came on and got booked and should have seen red. Not impressed at all.

Watched him play second fiddle to John Lundstram and Glen Kamara when rangers beat Leipzig the other night, no thanks again.

We deserve better, IF we want to start dominating games and winning the midfield battles we need top midfielders, we cant skimp on these positions.
 
How many players are Bayern getting this summer? That's 3 i know of so far then
 
Really think we should go for Ibrahim Sangaré instead of this guy.
 
yamo123x said:
No thank you RR.

Watched him play for Austria twice recently once against Scotland , played right midfield in one game, didnt do much at all and was hauled off, was sub next game and came on and got booked and should have seen red. Not impressed at all.

Watched him play second fiddle to John Lundstram and Glen Kamara when rangers beat Leipzig the other night, no thanks again.

We deserve better, IF we want to start dominating games and winning the midfield battles we need top midfielders, we cant skimp on these positions.
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I thought he played very well against Rangers the other night. Was my pick of a Leipzig side where a lot of his teammates seemed overawed by the atmosphere at times.
 
If they get Laimer I feel they are morally compelled to also sign one of Leipzig's DMs to complete the set. Though I guess technically Kimmich also qualifies.
 
I haven't seen Gravenberch play, is he a deep lying playmaker type that can create from deep? If not, then I don't see the point of Laimer for Bayern.

What Bayern have clearly lacked in midfield is a replacement for Thiago and someone who can take the burden off Kimmich in that role. Tolisso was to inconsistent with injuries to be trusted there, while Roca hasn't impressed.

Laimer would rather be replacement for Goretzka in midfield. So United Gravenberch is great with the ball at his feet and at passing, which Laimer isn't, then I think Bayern are wasting money on him.

United on the hand should snap at Leipzig for him. I've been raving about Laimer for 3 years now, he's a bundle of energy in midfield and exactly what we need alongside a more creative deep lying midfielder.
 
diarm said:
I thought he played very well against Rangers the other night. Was my pick of a Leipzig side where a lot of his teammates seemed overawed by the atmosphere at times.
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Really? Were you watching the same game as me?
He runs around but does very little with the ball, watched him closely 4 games now and flattered to impose himself on any of the games.

When you are looking at creating a mdifield to dominate games technically and physically, Laimer doesnt sit right for me, but then it is a matter of opinion.
 
yamo123x said:
Really? Were you watching the same game as me?
He runs around but does very little with the ball, watched him closely 4 games now and flattered to impose himself on any of the games.

When you are looking at creating a mdifield to dominate games technically and physically, Laimer doesnt sit right for me, but then it is a matter of opinion.
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He's a role player that excells at pressing and clever movement. His effectiveness depends entirely on how the team around him is set up.

Which makes it hard to just dismiss him out of hand, without knowing what the coach might have im mind. It's not like he'd be an expensive signing either.
 
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must be the work he does off the ball covering ground and filling in holes. Not seen him much but never really impressed me, looks like the standard one dimensional workhorse from what I have seen, no bad thing but Kante comparisons I really dont see
 
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