Konrad Laimer

VP89 said:
One is not sufficient. I'd also argue we are yet to see the best of Fred. In a pressing system he can be an huge huge gem in the side but it's not yet been seen. Fred's better performances are under Rangnick as he's one of the few who appears to listen to the instructions.

Liverpool was just an example by the way. You can look at how Conte or Tuchel really unlocked fullbacks better after Nuno/Lampard left the fold too. I have little doubt the technical upgrades will be made in those areas. Moreover hard working midfielders tasked with keeping the ball high up the pitch will give Rashford/Sancho and any other signings like Antony/Nkunku etc. to be more bold in taking on players and direct. They'll have a much better safety net to recycle the ball if need be.

Right now we have Pogba and Bruno when we can only afford to field 1. And then McT who is too limited. I don't want to see another creative midfielder enter the fold. Both Poch and ETH like workers in midfield with one creator max centrally. Bruno is already that guy. Of course these "workers" must also be technical. I dont know if Laimer is poor technically, but he sounds to be able enough.
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I agree with all of that. And I’m not advocating we go and sign a 10 or anything, I want a CM who has workrate but is still primarily a top footballer. Like Jude Bellingham, for example. Or from within, even Hannibal. That’s the sort of profile. Laimer isn’t that kind to me, he’s more Fred, and better without it than with it.

I think Fred is a good player, and I’d be happy to have him as part of any midfield 3 going forward. I guess if given the choice, I’d rather take Bruno out of the 3 than anyone else, and play with a more traditional 3, but with the third player more a Pogba than a Bruno - in the sense that while creative, he is not really a 10, and more of an 8 in terms of positions occupied and function. A DM, Fred and say, Bellingham, for example - would be closer to a Liverpool type of midfield in terms of workrate and compactness, but with enough offensive ability in it to support a front 3. But we need to also learn to control games IMO, and we need workrate for this, but also ball ability and simply enough bodies in the right areas.
 
Rozay said:
This is another issue though. We don’t use a ‘modern 433’, we have, now more than ever, committed to a 4231 with a 10. I’ve said for a while, but the issue with our midfield is as much the shape of it as it is personnel.
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A Few small changes can easily fix this. Fernandes and Fred are happy in a 4-3-3, we just need a proper CDM who plays it regularly and isn't just told to do a job like Mctominay.

If we add Antony to the RW then that's a decent balance with Sancho also.

Working on team shape and structure is a must this summer though, we need to get properly drilled. Our players are good enough but they need to know what they are doing subconsciously.
 
Rozay said:
I agree with all of that. And I’m not advocating we go and sign a 10 or anything, I want a CM who has workrate but is still primarily a top footballer. Like Jude Bellingham, for example. Or from within, even Hannibal. That’s the sort of profile. Laimer isn’t that kind to me, he’s more Fred, and better without it than with it.

I think Fred is a good player, and I’d be happy to have him as part of any midfield 3 going forward. I guess if given the choice, I’d rather take Bruno out of the 3 than anyone else, and play with a more traditional 3, but with the third player more a Pogba than a Bruno - in the sense that while creative, he is not really a 10, and more of an 8 in terms of positions occupied. A DM, Fred and say, Bellingham, for example - would be closer to a Liverpool type of midfield in terms of workrate and compactness, but with enough offensive ability in it to support a front 3.
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Yeah I'd love Bellingham. Never thought a player like him is attainable though. Same for Tchouameni etc.
 
Rozay said:
I agree with all of that. And I’m not advocating we go and sign a 10 or anything, I want a CM who has workrate but is still primarily a top footballer. Like Jude Bellingham, for example. Or from within, even Hannibal. That’s the sort of profile. Laimer isn’t that kind to me, he’s more Fred, and better without it than with it.

I think Fred is a good player, and I’d be happy to have him as part of any midfield 3 going forward. I guess if given the choice, I’d rather take Bruno out of the 3 than anyone else, and play with a more traditional 3, but with the third player more a Pogba than a Bruno - in the sense that while creative, he is not really a 10, and more of an 8 in terms of positions occupied and function. A DM, Fred and say, Bellingham, for example - would be closer to a Liverpool type of midfield in terms of workrate and compactness, but with enough offensive ability in it to support a front 3. But we need to also learn to control games IMO, and we need workrate for this, but also ball ability and simply enough bodies in the right areas.
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VP89 said:
Yeah I'd love Bellingham. Never thought a player like him is attainable though. Same for Tchouameni etc.
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Not saying it's an indication of anything in the future but supposedly Laimer absolutely dominated Bellingham in their recent game against Dortmund. He also scored 2 goals and assisted another.

 
VP89 said:
Yeah I'd love Bellingham. Never thought a player like him is attainable though. Same for Tchouameni etc.
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I agree, but more just in terms of profile. I’d prefer a player like Bellingham to be our ‘10’ than a traditional 10. Sort of how Iniesta was the 10 for Barca and Spain. A skilled CM with workrate. I think Hannibal can grow into this.

With our current system though, Laimer would just replace Fred - as we would still have a DM behind, and will still play Bruno as a 10. The net benefit from that is minimal I think, we can just keep Fred in the side. If Laimer were to replace Bruno instead, I’s be concerned at his lack of creativity, and a Fred and Laimer double 8 still wouldn’t have enough top quality for me. A Fred/Hannibal double 8 in front of a DM is something I’d like to see in the future.
 
These are the signings that excite me. Someone I’ve never heard of for a reasonable fee? Gives me confidence that we have scouts actually doing their job.

It’s very easy to just throw 100m at the biggest hyped player that summer, copy and paste him into your team and wonder why he isn’t able to replicate his form. Now it seems we’re buying players for the system and not just collecting over paid individuals.
 
L1nk said:
Not saying it's an indication of anything in the future but supposedly Laimer absolutely dominated Bellingham in their recent game against Dortmund. He also scored 2 goals and assisted another.

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I don’t doubt this, and I’d ideally want a Bellingham AND Laimer midfield, with a DM behind them. That way, they can dominate everybody, and still get forward and chip in with goals, keep the ball, beat the press themselves and keep a good shape. As it stands, I suspect Laimer would only replace Fred. I don’t think he’d dominate Bellingham from that sort of setup, as he will be too exposed in the centre anyway.

Dortmund played with two central midfielders and Leipzig had 3. It was almost impossible for Bellingham to not get dominated, and it is the exact same thing that will happen here, which is why we are dominated centrally by the likes of Southampton and Brighton let alone the top sides. We need to do away with this 4231 IMO.
 
Liverpool started out the Klopp era with Milner, Henderson and Wijnaldum - hardly a trio with high technical ability.

If we're going to go with a 433 under ETH then a workhorse like midfield will help us carry a player like Ronaldo who hasn't got the legs to press.
 
Rozay said:
I agree with all of that. And I’m not advocating we go and sign a 10 or anything, I want a CM who has workrate but is still primarily a top footballer. Like Jude Bellingham, for example. Or from within, even Hannibal. That’s the sort of profile. Laimer isn’t that kind to me, he’s more Fred, and better without it than with it.

I think Fred is a good player, and I’d be happy to have him as part of any midfield 3 going forward. I guess if given the choice, I’d rather take Bruno out of the 3 than anyone else, and play with a more traditional 3, but with the third player more a Pogba than a Bruno - in the sense that while creative, he is not really a 10, and more of an 8 in terms of positions occupied and function. A DM, Fred and say, Bellingham, for example - would be closer to a Liverpool type of midfield in terms of workrate and compactness, but with enough offensive ability in it to support a front 3. But we need to also learn to control games IMO, and we need workrate for this, but also ball ability and simply enough bodies in the right areas.
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Rare breed. Really think James Ward-Prowse is very underrated.

And while Rangnick said we lack "physicality" I'm not sure we do in the middle of the park. In fact, we probably rather lack "top footballers" in the middle of the park. Both Fred and McTominay are very physical, and is probably there to compensate for lack of such in the rest of the team.

If I were to guess, I think Rangnick feels we lack "physicality" in attack (excluding Bruno) and in defence (maybe excluding Dalot). If so, I really agree with him. And that is also why I think moving for Ronaldo, Telles and Varane in the last two windows was mistakes. (Varane has changed a lot physically the last two to three years.)
 
yumtum said:
Liverpool started out the Klopp era with Milner, Henderson and Wijnaldum - hardly a trio with high technical ability.

If we're going to go with a 433 under ETH then a workhorse like midfield will help us carry a player like Ronaldo who hasn't got the legs to press.
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We’re likely not going 433 though.

And the footballing ability of Liverpool’s midfielders is a bit underplayed anyway.
 
Rozay said:
We’re likely not going 433 though.

And the footballing ability of Liverpool’s midfielders is a bit underplayed anyway.
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Well I hope to hell that we won't see Mct and Fred as a midfield two next season.

Didn't crap on their footballing ability, they're very good footballers, I just said they weren't super technical, I get the impression that some fans want Pedri like players.
 
yumtum said:
Liverpool started out the Klopp era with Milner, Henderson and Wijnaldum - hardly a trio with high technical ability.

If we're going to go with a 433 under ETH then a workhorse like midfield will help us carry a player like Ronaldo who hasn't got the legs to press.
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If that's the plan, then go for Pochettino. ETH would be wasted with a work horse midfield.

And when Klopp arrived at Liverpool, a work horse midfield was fine for him because the brand of football he was trying to implement was all the rage at the time. And that brand of football was to press high and win the ball back quickly, before making quick vertical passes towards goal. He's since brought in Dutch coach Ljinders and has introduced a more possession based approach.
 
I think Liverpool's midfield has to be very technical. We just tend to typecast certain names and then it's hard to get away from that perception. But logically speaking I don't think you can play at the tempo and accuracy they do without very technical players all over the pitch.

When we try to play at a tempo we're often giving it away constantly. Which is partly structural but also partly to do with basic, fundamental skills some of our individuals have.

We need a bit of both, for sure. If anything we're leaning towards having a physical edge with Fred, we need somebody just as athletic with good technical ability next to him. Whether this guy is the guy I've no idea. His stats suggest he is physically a monster but not very influential on the ball, so it makes you wonder about what our balance would be.
 
Adnan said:
If that's the plan, then go for Pochettino. ETH would be wasted with a work horse midfield.

And when Klopp arrived at Liverpool, a work horse midfield was fine for him because the brand of football he was trying to implement was all the rage at the time. And that brand of football was to press high and win the ball back quickly, before making quick vertical passes towards goal. He's since brought in Dutch coach Ljinders and has introduced a more possession based approach.
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That goes to show how well Klopp is doing, being able to adapt his gameplan.

I don't mean to say I want just a workhorse midfield, but we can't get rid of 11 players in one window and buy 11, we need to transition and I hope ETH (or whoever it is) knows this, we have the players that closer suit a workhorse midfield than a technical one.
 
I think we do need players with high intensity, but we shouldn't prioritise physicality over technical ability imo. Especially if ten Hag is the next coach.

Signing players who are technically gifted as well as having the physical traits for a high tempo game both with and without the ball is what's required imo.

And the Laimer news from Bild seems to be them speculating on a move to us because Rangnick liked him in the past.
 
yumtum said:
That goes to show how well Klopp is doing, being able to adapt his gameplan.

I don't mean to say I want just a workhorse midfield, but we can't get rid of 11 players in one window and buy 11, we need to transition and I hope ETH (or whoever it is) knows this, we have the players that closer suit a workhorse midfield than a technical one.
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Absolutely agree that Klopp transitioned at the right time because the possession teams had adapted to the heavy metal play style.

I'm hoping we can sign the correct profile of players and enhance our technical and physical traits by replacing a number of the current starting players.
 
Adnan said:
Absolutely agree that Klopp transitioned at the right time because the possession teams had adapted to the heavy metal play style.

I'm hoping we can sign the correct profile of players and enhance our technical and physical traits by replacing a number of the current starting players.
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I definitely agree, but we won't have the ability to replace 7-8 starting players to begin with, our only hope is to purchase cheap-ish players who combine good ability on the ball but are hardworking to make up for our athleticism deficiency in attack.

Liverpool still have Henderson and Milner, we should get those types of players than can play well enough but work hard, and still be able to compete when we transition to a higher technical midfield.
 
he’s had nearly an open goal.

corbyn before him was nearly universally loathed. even though he was a man of his principles and stuck to his guns with his socialism and jew hating, he lacked charisma and never really had the backing of his own party, let alone the general populace. konrad laimer is way more middle of the road as a politician. you’d happily leave your kid with him, knowing he’s likely not nonce it, but he would equally have feck all interest in safeguarding its future either.

as leader of the oppo, his away day should be a walk in the park. bojo is a walking disaster, bumbling from gaff to mishap to downright law breaking, yet laimer doesn’t seem to capitalise.
 
Would a midfield of Fred, Bruno and Laimer work? Three players playing with high intensity.

I suspect that Fred will retain his spot in the starting eleven with both Poch and ETH.
 
Possible alternative to the Madrid bound or too expensive tchounamei or however you spell it.

We need physically dominant footballers
Not one trick pony's.
All round players who are strong in alot of areas, possession, passing, tackling etc.

Fred we know is physically rubbish, with erratic passing and first touch.

Mctominay lacks intelligence off the ball, making himself an option to pass too leaves alot to be desired.

Plenty of areas to Improve on.
 
Svartzonker said:
Would a midfield of Fred, Bruno and Laimer work? Three players playing with high intensity.

I suspect that Fred will retain his spot in the starting eleven with both Poch and ETH.
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Think it would be positionally questionable. And I’m not much of a stats man, but is Bruno’s pressing/ball-winning really that good? Fred is a machine in that respect I know, and Laimer too - but I think a trio would be a little headless and uncoordinated.
 
Rozay said:
Think it would be positionally questionable. And I’m not much of a stats man, but is Bruno’s pressing/ball-winning really that good? Fred is a machine in that respect I know, and Laimer too - but I think a trio would be a little headless and uncoordinated.
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Yeah Bruno's pressing stats are pretty good for an AM, I don't know about ball-winning but his pressures per 90 are strong.

But I agree you need somebody who can sit in that trio.
 
If we'll want to address almost everything next summer, this chap or someone with similar price tag could help... or perhaps brace ourselves for another long summer negotiations for Rice just to throw 100m and almost deplet the budget and address maybe two / three positions at best.
 
Rozay said:
This is another issue though. We don’t use a ‘modern 433’, we have, now more than ever, committed to a 4231 with a 10. I’ve said for a while, but the issue with our midfield is as much the shape of it as it is personnel.
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Lampard , Essien and Makelele worked in that Chelsea setup. It's possible but need the right players.
 
bond19821982 said:
Lampard , Essien and Makelele worked in that Chelsea setup. It's possible but need the right players.
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Because that was the perfect set up I think. Lampard was not a #10 - he was an offensive 8. Many of his (open play) goals were either from distance or late arrival in the box. He’s not the player constantly in forward positions waiting for Essien and Makelele to find him. And for England he played in a more traditional midfield 2 quite often.

I think Chelsea had 3 orthodox CMs personally.
 
Rozay said:
Because that was the perfect set up I think. Lampard was not a #10 - he was an offensive 8. Many of his (open play) goals were either from distance or late arrival in the box. He’s not the player constantly in forward positions waiting for Essien and Makelele to find him. And for England he played in a more traditional midfield 2 quite often.

I think Chelsea had 3 orthodox CMs personally.
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VDB played in offensive areas in Ten Hag 19 team though, it worked quite fine.
 
this guy is a class footballer for sure....under this current side, i don't think he would thrive though.
 
Trex said:
VDB played in offensive areas in Ten Hag 19 team though, it worked quite fine.
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VDB was also an offensive 8 and is not a traditional 10. He’s another late arriver into the box.
 
andersj said:
Rare breed. Really think James Ward-Prowse is very underrated.

And while Rangnick said we lack "physicality" I'm not sure we do in the middle of the park. In fact, we probably rather lack "top footballers" in the middle of the park. Both Fred and McTominay are very physical, and is probably there to compensate for lack of such in the rest of the team.

If I were to guess, I think Rangnick feels we lack "physicality" in attack (excluding Bruno) and in defence (maybe excluding Dalot). If so, I really agree with him. And that is also why I think moving for Ronaldo, Telles and Varane in the last two windows was mistakes. (Varane has changed a lot physically the last two to three years.)
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Agreed. Boundless energy, great passer, consistent and exceptional at set-pieces. Might be the sort of name United need to target if they miss out on the CL, although they will largely depend on the formation I think - not sure he and Fred would work in a midfield two.
 
Apparently is bayern bound.
Also Leipzig have reportedly gotten salty and will no longer do business with munich even if it causes them to lose players on the free due to bayern simply pillaging their players and recently their coaching staff which has pissed them off.
Good by them, more bundes teams should take that approach, would actually make the league somewhat interesting.
 
Laimer and Neves for 60-65 mil would be a great deal, instead of that fee for Phillips.

Laimer is a ball-winning machine, while Neves will be able to dictate the game.
 
Red the Bear said:
Apparently is bayern bound.
Also Leipzig have reportedly gotten salty and will no longer do business with munich even if it causes them to lose players on the free due to bayern simply pillaging their players and recently their coaching staff which has pissed them off.
Good by them, more bundes teams should take that approach, would actually make the league somewhat interesting.
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Where is the source that he is Bayern bound? All I saw was something like „Bayern and Dortmund could be interested in him.“.
 
I'd fill the midfield with energy. Energy, energy, energy.

Forward Forward Forward
Fred Phillips Laimer

You look at Liverpool's midfield and, apart from Thiago, who we saw a masterclass from yesterday, they haven't got any you'd say would stand out on the ball. Primarily, their creativity comes from the full backs and forwards. Unfortunately, our full backs are nowhere near the same standard as Liverpool's. Can add forwards to that too, altough if we had that midfield behind them, they'd probably get a bit more freedom, which as a result, could add to their attacking output.

I just think we need to be hard to play against. That's the foundation of any challenging side. The midfield above, whilst not as creative as would (should) make it very hard to play against.
 
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