You are underrating Fabinho there. Even Henderson has been underrated for years in that respect. I understand people wanting hard-working players as opposed to our lazy bunch this season, but we'll still need better players while in possession. Last night wasn't just about Liverpool outworking us and punishing our mistakes, they were also very good in possession and we couldn't get near them. Players like Laimer and Phillips would made make us more combative, but neither would control games for us with their passing to the required standard, nor would Fred.
Konrad Laimer
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You are underrating Fabinho there. Even Henderson has been underrated for years in that respect. I understand people wanting hard-working players as opposed to our lazy bunch this season, but we'll still need better players while in possession. Last night wasn't just about Liverpool outworking us and punishing our mistakes, they were also very good in possession and we couldn't get near them. Players like Laimer and Phillips would made make us more combative, but neither would control games for us with their passing to the required standard, nor would Fred.
Exactly considering the majority of games are against weaker sides were we would need to dominate and our incoming manager having a possession based philosophy.
And Henderson has a rather specialised role, really. Saw it last work to perfection. He almost works like a RWB in game and Henderson pushes up into that right side CM spot. We don't have a fullback near as good on the ball to compensate in such a way. Imagine hypothetically Laimer dropping deeper to allow Wan Bissaka or Dalot that space?
I don't think I am underrating them. They are good on the ball, but what I'm saying is, they are not known for their ball playing abilities, whereas Thiago is.
I don't think Fabinho nor Henderson would have been able to put on a performance like Thiago did yesterday. Again, that is not to say they are not decent on the ball, but certainly not as good as Thiago, in my opinion. The guy went off in the 79h min and still had the most touches (132) on the pitch.
Regards the midfield I put out, I think you are underrating Phillips'. He not only plays for a Leeds side who dominated both on a off the ball under Bielsa, but he was the key cog to how they played too, which is the reason why their form dropped considerably when he got injured.
You could potentially change Laimer with someone better on the ball, but as I said, I think our foundation and short term goal should be to make ourselves much harder to play against, and if that means we lose a bit of that creative spark, then so be it. I mean, we have Bruno and Pogba in our midfield these days and create next to nothing, because we aren't able to peg teams back.
It's something Klopp did straight away at Liverpool. Think I remember him taking Coutinho out of the middle and pushing him wide.
That's because Thiago is a specialist and he has been one of the best players in that respect, when he has been fully fit. That doesn't mean neither Fabinho nor Henderson aren't good players in possession. I think there is a clear difference between someone like Fabinho and Phillips from an individual point of view while in possession. I'd make the same point about Casemiro, Rodri, Brozović, Tchouaméni, Rice and Højbjerg. Currently we don't have a Thiago in terms of passing in our midfield, what I am asking for, is at least someone as good as Fabinho in that regard, since there most likely isn't a conductor like Thiago available. If we already had someone like Kimmich, Thiago, Kovačić, Modrić, De Jong or Verratti, I would probably feel differently.
Also, people constantly bring up the point, how Liverpool's midfield initially looked under Klopp, how it was mostly a hard-working unit without any creativity, completely ignoring the fact that they had Alexander-Arnold and Robertson as their full-backs (as @DWelbz19 also points out above), on top of Mané, Firmino and Salah, which we won't have next season. You can't just take out Bruno and simply expect us to replicate what Liverpool did with their full-backs and front 3, when we simply don't have the same quality in those areas. Moreover, ten Hag is using Tadić, who has been one of Ajax's best players, who is losing possession more often in the Dutch league than Bruno does in a much tougher league. I don't know how your conclusion can be, that we don't create nearly enough with Bruno in the team, so let's take him out, if we create even less, so be it.
Obviously there is the hope that with proper coaching from ten Hag, the team will look better than the sum of its parts. However, the best managers in the league needed better players from an individual point of view, as well. Liverpool became what they are, because all of Alison, van Dijk and Fabinho improved them, especially while in possession.
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Ah, okay. For me there is a big difference between „apparently Bayern bound“ and „rumors that Dortmund, Bayern, Atleti and other clubs are interested.“
Fair enough, I just feel in these cases you lot almost always get your wish.
If bayern wants him they'll get him.
I wish and I understand the notion. Unfortunately KdB, Sane, Havertz, Thiago and others showed that it definitely is not always the case.
But if Bayern loses/sells more than one out of Tolisso, Sabitzer, Roca and doesn’t bring in Gravenberch this summer there is a glaring hole in midfield.
He should be a nice addition to your midfield, you usually don't tend to ignore your midfield that much.
Also I'm actually pretty sure you could have retained or gotten most of those if you were willing to cough up the money and you're better off without giving in to those kinds of demands.
Again, I never once said Fabinho or Henderson weren't good on the ball. If you feel the players you mentioned, especially Tchouameni and Højbjerg are better than Phillips in possession, then its something we'll have to agree to disagree on.
As for your second point, I agree, and something I specifically pointed out when talking about the midfield and how the full backs and forwards create. I also added that, you could argue if we had that stability of midfield behind them, we could potentially see better attacking output.
Regarding the Bruno point, the conclusion about we don't create enough take him out the team bit is pretty simple. Having your most creative players on a football pitch doesn't neccarily mean we'll be creative. Its all about balance. We'll have to find that balance somewhere because as you said, we won't get the creativity from our full backs that Liverpool's give them, but again, that'll be something ten Hag would need to look at. Also, Tadic losing the ball as a winger in the final third is much more forgiveable than Bruno who likes to play hollywood balls every other pass, thus no flow to our game whatsoever.
Of course managers need better players, and it will take time but going back to my initial point, both Klopp and Pep, especially Pep in the main, focused on fixing his goalkeeper and defensive issues before anything else. God only knows how much he spent on his back line.
I don't think our defenders are bad but they are so exposed because they haven't the protection of the midfield. Fred and McTominay do a decent job but neither are specialists and our much suited to playing as number 8's.
Going forward, I feel if we can fix this issue, then we can hope our attacking play falls into place.
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You said they are not known for their ball playing abilities, which is doing them a disservice. If you don't think Phillips is the odd one out in terms of individual quality and as a passer compared to Fabinho, Casemiro, Rodri, Brozović, Tchouaméni and Rice, the yeah, we have to disagree. There is reason most of Europe is chasing Tchouaméni and not Phillips. If Phillips was as good on the ball as you say he is, then why is he still at Leeds? His problem sure as hell isn't what he does out of possession. He's an excellent ball-winner, has good positioning and he is good at pressing. I'd give you Højbjerg, but there is a clear difference between:
Phillips last season:
Højbjerg this season:
That's Phillips profile from last season, when he was as you said key to Leeds. They had the 4th most possession with 55.1% that season, compared to Tottenham's 8th most with 51.8% this season. Yes, Tottenham are a better team than Leeds, but Leeds clearly were a team under Bielsa that were also looking to keep the ball.
I guess we disagree where more stability in midfield comes from. For me it's just as much about how good we are at keeping the ball, as it is about how we work out of possession. If ten Hag wants to implement a high-press possession football, then it just can't be high-press without the possession football part. Most teams will also sit back against us unlike Liverpool last night, as @Trex also pointed out above.
I don't think it matters whether Tadić plays wide and Bruno through the centre. Both lose possession a lot, which is completely normal for the type of player they are. Last season de Bruyne had a similar figure to Bruno this season, when it comes to possession lost. We also have a fairly secure passer in Sancho on the wing. If we eventually replace Bruno with someone like Nkunku for example, we could turn out to be a more balanced team, but I wouldn't be surprised if Bruno's contract extension happened with ten Hag's blessing and he'll want to use him.
Bayern's midfield is so deeply set in stone with Kimmich and Goretzka, both of them Germans, too, that I would be mildly surprised if Latimer joined them. He's 24 years old, that's the age where you're both too old and too young to play second fiddle, he has to start week in week out to get the best out of his prime years. And at Bayern I don't see that happening, unless Goretzka is injured.
They lack depth right now with Tolisso and Roca likely leaving, which is important given the injury problems of Goretzka. Sabitzer hasn't been great up until now (plus a more offensive option), Laimer would fit in well to compete in all competitions.
For him personally yea it's a very risky move.
Him, Kamara, Fred, McTominey.
Alot of energy there for 2 midfield spots. Bruno ahead of them in the number 10 role.
Watched him against Dortmund and was impressed with how attacking he was, didn't think that was what he was as a player.
If we had 2 Fred's in midfield, we would be getting top 4 ..
Wed win the league!
I very much like the idea of this signing. It's like merging Ralf's gegenpressing style with Ten Hag's Cruyffian-inspired build up and tempo control. I think he can come in and play Ten Hag's game.
It makes a lot of sense. Bring him and Nkunku please.
Ralf a big fan again. Hope he brings us some under the radar signings like this. That's exactly why he is here.
30m enough?
I personally would expect him to leave for less than that.
A no brainer then
He's a fantastic ball winner, but I wonder if Ten Hag might want someone who offers a little bit more in possession. Like Laimer, Fabian Ruiz only has 12 months left on his deal - he's more the sort of player I can imagine thriving in a possession-based side like the one I expect Ten Hag to build.
He has only a year left on his contract. He should be relatively cheap.
Can see him going to Liverpool, a Klopp player if I've ever seen one.
A well informed post.
We need the requisite lev of quality in the midfield first and foremost. I don’t get all this ‘look at Liverpool, they haven’t got the most talented midfield but they are hardworkers’ spiel. Have people been asleep for the last 3 years? Our midfield 3 has primarily been Fred, McTominay and Bruno Fernandes. Not fecking Ozil, Riquelme and Pogba. We’ve had no shortage of players running around and trying to press in midfield. It’s the quality part that has been lacking in there.
This. Liverpool can also afford to do that because they have 2 stupidly productive full backs and a monstrous front line.
Even they've taken a step up this season compared to 18/19 - 19/20 because Thiago's been the missing piece to make them more potent through the midfield.
Laimer and Neves for around 60 mil would be a nice coup.
The cheaper route would be Laimer and Kamara.
The cheaper route would be Laimer and Kamara.
In Rangnicks interview where he says we need improvements everywhere apart from GK and that we need players to suit the new managers system, he said he has recommended two signings to the board that he would suit any system and add to every teams squad.
Given his links to Red Bull and knowledge of their players I can see Laimer and/or Haidara being at least one of those recommendations.
Given his links to Red Bull and knowledge of their players I can see Laimer and/or Haidara being at least one of those recommendations.
Did not know that but these are the kind of signings you make when you need to buy 5 players or more imo. Low risk high reward
I’d think more Laimer and Nkunku. Nkunku looks confortable anywhere in the front 4 positions.
What kind of a midfielder is he? Box to box? Is he more attacking or more defensive? Which player is he a good comparison to?
It's important we sign players who can press but also those who can beat it.
Oh man - just reading through this I fear if our board doesn’t back Ten Hag with the right kind of player purchases, we’ll be left playing like our LVG team - zombie sideways passing to maintain possession but no threat whatsoever.
Can’t imagine Fred, Mctominay, AWB, Maguire playing in a Ten Hag system. Would be horrible to watch.
Really need 2 quality midfield signings. And a forward, CB and RB (if Laird is not ready).
@Adnan - is Laimer a flexible player? Is he all around the pitch? I've seen he has a history at RB.
I've watched a video where they say that Ten Hag likes flexible players - players that are able to move in to different positions during the match.
He likes fullbacks that can sometimes move to CDM like Blind. A CDM that drops in to different areas of the CB line to bring the ball forward when the rest of the team maybe planning to attack as we have seen with alvarez and de jong.
Can Laimer do any of this? Is he a flexible player that positions himself with flexibility to help his team mates in possesion or is he in your face pressing type of player where he chases after the ball more?
Will he Play as a RB that steps in to CDM or is this just wasting his natural high working ability constantly being in someone's faces?
I've watched a video where they say that Ten Hag likes flexible players - players that are able to move in to different positions during the match.
He likes fullbacks that can sometimes move to CDM like Blind. A CDM that drops in to different areas of the CB line to bring the ball forward when the rest of the team maybe planning to attack as we have seen with alvarez and de jong.
Can Laimer do any of this? Is he a flexible player that positions himself with flexibility to help his team mates in possesion or is he in your face pressing type of player where he chases after the ball more?
Will he Play as a RB that steps in to CDM or is this just wasting his natural high working ability constantly being in someone's faces?
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You only have to look into his passing stats to answer that question. He's a monster in terms of pressing and he has some clever movement, so there's a lot of value to him in the correct context. But he needs others to carry him during build up and he's too much pushing forward to play as an old school anchor, so I really don't see any use for him, except for box2box.
He's a high energy 'pressing machine' who is best utilised to help apply a coordinated press. But he's not someone that I believe would be the most effective at dropping into the back-line to stretch the pitch horizontally and thus opening up space for the wide receivers to become the out-ball in the initial build up phase.
He's definitely not that type of player, and he's most effective as a hound who can help the team win the ball quickly via the counter press and hence force quick counters in a vertical axis. So he's someone that will provide the intensity/energy off the ball but not the craft and guile on the ball imo.