Does it? What about all the players we recently got rid of because they had bags of stamina and physicality but not enough quality on the ball? McTominay, Fred, Wan-Bissaka just to name a few off the top of my head. Garnacho has endless running and he came through around the same time as Kobbie. Ugarte and Dorgu are both recent signings with physical stamina high up on their list of assets. Bruno is noted for his freakish fitness.A big part of the Premier League now is stamina and he severely lacks it. Seems to be a constant with recent United players. He has the ability, he just needs more fitness. It’s easiest to build fitness than technical ability so I see no reason to sell him.
Surely it's he was a much better player last season than this season. He was pretty poor under ten Hag this season and wasn't much better (aside from one game as a number 10) under Amorim — but it's not like the decline in his performances had started once Amorim replace ten Han.
He certainly does lack stamina, but he is still at a growth age, so we may not see a fully fledged midfielder for a couple of years, so I, like yourself, see no reason to sell.A big part of the Premier League now is stamina and he severely lacks it. Seems to be a constant with recent United players. He has the ability, he just needs more fitness. It’s easiest to build fitness than technical ability so I see no reason to sell him.
Not keen on that debate myself but since it was asked, the answer is that Scholes was never gassed after 60 mins, 90 mins etc. however he always had great cover from wingers like Giggs, midfielders like Keane, Fletcher, park, fullbacks like Irwin or evra ans even forwards like Rooney busting a gut working backwardsI’m genuinely amazed by this response. Scholes himself, I’m sure, would openly admit that that he was nowhere near modern day footballers from an athletic point of view. I don’t even understand how this is a debate.
Not keen on that debate myself but since it was asked, the answer is that Scholes was never gassed after 60 mins, 90 mins etc. however he always had great cover from wingers like Giggs, midfielders like Keane, Fletcher, park, fullbacks like Irwin or evra ans even forwards like Rooney busting a gut working backwards
My point is that Scholes never had to run as much as Mainoo has to in this system and with players not as good. It’s comparing apples and orangesHe also had a decent burst of speed to time his runs into the box late, and he had calves like tree trunks which made him hard to knock off the ball. Strength and stamina wise, so far it's not even a comparison. In saying that though, I'm comparing 25 year old Scholes with 19 year old Mainoo. Of course Mainoo can still improve his fitness levels and strength.
My point is that Scholes never had to run as much as Mainoo has to in this system and with players not as good. It’s comparing apples and oranges
I disagree. Scholes used the long pass quite often to progress the ball, Mainoo likes to run it or pass small. By its nature that takes more energy during a match.Well he did though, he played in a 2 man midfield as a box to box. He might not have run as much as Beckham but he did plenty of hard yards.
I don't think that's a reasonable way to assess it when Scholes' regular partner was the indefatigable Roy Keane , mostly in his prime, running around like a maniac and putting in the work of two (long before Park became famed for it). Put prime Roy Keane next to Mainoo - even in a 2-man midfield - and he's not going to have to do anywhere near as much running, which in turn would mean he could better manage his stamina and use it up in shorter, more considered bursts.Well he did though, he played in a 2 man midfield as a box to box. He might not have run as much as Beckham but he did plenty of hard yards.
I don't think that's a reasonable way to assess it when Scholes' regular partner was the indefatigable Roy Keane , mostly in his prime, running around like a maniac and putting in the work of two (long before Park became famed for it). Put prime Roy Keane next to Mainoo - even in a 2-man midfield - and he's not going to have to do anywhere near as much running, which in turn would mean he could better manage his stamina and use it up in shorter, more considered bursts.
Scholes would flag a far amount when the game was too fast and we couldn't get a foothold in it. Fortunately for us and him, that happened so rarely that it couldn't be a thing as we were mostly the dominant force dictating the pace and deciding when and where it would be appropriate to turn the screw.
Scholes energy management was in another stratosphere to Mainoo's by way of his use of the ball and how much he could control a game via ball retention and recycling. Perhaps Mainoo will learn that skill in the future and it is also really unfair to compare a teenager with a grown man. Mainoo is still growing and still adjusting to his newfound size and mass whereas Scholes had already had his growing pains before making it as an established starter. Mainoo may look a completely different player by 23 - the age at which Scholes really became a star and one of the first names on the teamsheet.
I disagree. Scholes used the long pass quite often to progress the ball, Mainoo likes to run it or pass small. By its nature that takes more energy during a match.
But as I said it’s like comparing apples and oranges
I think the distinction between "moved" and "ran" are important here. Scholes could move all day and had no problem with being perpetually open due to his subtle moving around constantly working for space, but 'ran plenty himself' would need some context because when we talk about running now, we're discussing drones getting up and down the pitch in a number of the highest intensity sprints that have become so paramount in the modern game. Scholes categorically did not have to sprint repeatedly game in and game out. In fact, it's that high intensity H.I.I.T. work that is ruinous for the throwback players who are skilled but nothing like the athletes who can perform all that high octane stuff.I'm not talking about hypotheticals here. I think Beckham used to run around 12km a game which was invariably the most in the side, but Scholes ran plenty himself. The idea he just stood around like a wallflower while Keane and Becks did all his work is laughable. And yes I agree with you that he could pick his moments more than Mainoo can due to his game intelligence, passing, and midfield partners, but he picked plenty of moments to move, he hardly stopped which was why he could always find space.
I think the distinction between "moved" and "ran" are important here. Scholes could move all day and had no problem with being perpetually open due to his subtle moving around constantly working for space, but 'ran plenty himself' would need some context because when we talk about running now, we're discussing drones getting up and down the pitch in a number of the highest intensity sprints that have become so paramount in the modern game. Scholes categorically did not have to sprint repeatedly game in and game out. In fact, it's that high intensity H.I.I.T. work that is ruinous for the throwback players who are skilled but nothing like the athletes who can perform all that high octane stuff.
I think Scholes had more stamina than Kobbie myself, but the conditions set via the quality of their respective teams, and age of them as well as the way we used to dictate the pace more often than not, makes it much harder to assess. And as above, Scholes would be ruined in a high octane environment where he doesn't get to "move" more than have the readiness for yet another lung-busting sprint 40 yards before having to turn and be ready to do it again in the blink of an eye. This is where Mainoo visibly flags, but outside of that, he doesn't look much flustered, imo - it's the moment the game turns into an athletics meet that he is found wanting and absolutely bolloxed within 60 minutes.
It's interesting that you mention Beckham, who was famed for his ability to complete the beep test - put him alongside Keane and also have the absurdly athletic Giggs completing the midfield unit and it's no wonder Scholes got to pick and choose his moments. If only Mainoo had the equivalent of such talented yet supreme athletic specimens to play alongside; perhaps then he wouldn't have to do so much H.I.I.T. himself!
An easy way to assess these two is in trying to imagine what the other would look like in a team switch. Does Scholes struggle if asked to play Mainoo did/does in a terrible set up under ETH, or with so much on his plate athletically in an Amorim team? How does Mainoo do if tasked with Scholes' jobs in an all-time midfield unit?
Difficult to fit Scholes since he had many roles and was doing it on a worldclass level throughout his career.Scholes would have struggled for Ten Hag yes, but not for Amorim. He'd be better than Bruno at the CM role.
Difficult to fit Scholes since he had many roles and was doing it on a worldclass level throughout his career.
There's the CM Scholes who played with Butt or Keane in the 90s. There's the AM Scholes who scored 20+ goals along with Giggs and Solskjaer (and won the league). And there's the deep lying playmaker Scholes who can sit deep and dictate the match with his passing.
I think the first two in his younger years, Scholes would have been perfect for either roles in Amorim system. The deeplying playmaker Scholes? not so much.
Also, I'd like to point out that I don't think Amorim system required more running than the old United system, given that possession wasn't as valued like now, I'd wager that players do more running to win the ball back back then
The good news about wages now is that most of the high earners will leave soon, like Rashford, Sancho and even Cas, and with Bruno being on 250k, and his path to that wage was based on his performances, so the club can now say if you want Bruno wages then you have to give Bruno numbers, it's a lil bit under control now and Mainoo knows that the club is willing to sell him if he asks for too much wagesI really like him and he seems to have a high ceiling. I hope he stays to continue his growth. But I also have no qualms of selling him if the wage demands are true but right now he is mostly potential and giving in to high wage demands will cause more problems than not down the road.
Always been intrigued by this, as the "evidence" seems to be the likes of G Neville or Rio saying it.It's interesting that you mention Beckham, who was famed for his ability to complete the beep test - put him alongside Keane and also have the absurdly athletic Giggs completing the midfield unit and it's no wonder Scholes got to pick and choose his moments. If only Mainoo had the equivalent of such talented yet supreme athletic specimens to play alongside; perhaps then he wouldn't have to do so much H.I.I.T. himself!
Always been intrigued by this, as the "evidence" seems to be the likes of G Neville or Rio saying it.
Also, there are two versions, 15metre and 20metres, the 15metre version has 23 levels, the 20metre has 21. Obviously the 20metre one is harder.
I'd say it'd be absolutely hugely unlikely that Beckham would complete the 21stage 20metre version under proper protocol - that'd be the stuff of proper world standard runners. Would also be surprised if he'd complete the 15metre version as well.
But obviously Beckham had supreme stamina, and our midfield was one of the hardest working - something that's often overlooked.
Apologies from the Mainoo diversion - quick one on him - would be a real shame to sell someone of such technique and close control - but if it's what we have to do to generate fees for the good of United, we have to do it. But who on earth would trust us to sign the right players - we've barely had more than 2 or 3 successes in a decade now.
This is massively concerning to me. Selling Mainoo and Garnacho and then sacking the manager 10-12 games in leaving us back at square one seems the direction of travel for this circus.Jesus, I can’t imagine why we would even consider discussing selling Kobbie in the summer, we need to be patient he has 2+1 left on his contract and we don’t know if Ruben Amorim will still be our coach by October/November 2025 especially with his current dismal PL record of wining 6 PL games from 19 and losing 9, that type of record will not be tolerated for more than 10 to 12 PL matches next season?
Imagine if the club sign Xavi as a new coach then Kobbie becomes the key player in the team.
Jason Wilcox needs to tell all concerned, there’s no hurry to sell Kobbie or even discuss selling him until this time next summer if he can’t find a starting position within the squad.
I think Garnacho/Mainoo sales (or at least one of them) will probably happen irrespective of Amorim’s job security as they represent one of the few ways for us to earn profit/comply with these silly PSR rules to waste more money.This is massively concerning to me. Selling Mainoo and Garnacho and then sacking the manager 10-12 games in leaving us back at square one seems the direction of travel for this circus.
We've been learning about Vo2 max as part of the course I am doing, I can't remember Beckham's exact reading when it was measured but it was up there with those mentalist Norwegian Cross-Country skiers, who have some of the highest readings in the world. I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if the stories were true.Always been intrigued by this, as the "evidence" seems to be the likes of G Neville or Rio saying it.
Also, there are two versions, 15metre and 20metres, the 15metre version has 23 levels, the 20metre has 21. Obviously the 20metre one is harder.
I'd say it'd be absolutely hugely unlikely that Beckham would complete the 21stage 20metre version under proper protocol - that'd be the stuff of proper world standard runners. Would also be surprised if he'd complete the 15metre version as well.
But obviously Beckham had supreme stamina, and our midfield was one of the hardest working - something that's often overlooked.
Apologies from the Mainoo diversion - quick one on him - would be a real shame to sell someone of such technique and close control - but if it's what we have to do to generate fees for the good of United, we have to do it. But who on earth would trust us to sign the right players - we've barely had more than 2 or 3 successes in a decade now.
Imagine if the club sign Xavi as a new coach then Kobbie becomes the key player in the team.
You're way too negative about Amorim. It irritates me and makes me want to cry.Jesus, I can’t imagine why we would even consider discussing selling Kobbie in the summer, we need to be patient he has 2+1 left on his contract and we don’t know if Ruben Amorim will still be our coach by October/November 2025 especially with his current dismal PL record of wining 6 PL games from 19 and losing 9, that type of record will not be tolerated for more than 10 to 12 PL matches next season?
Imagine if the club sign Xavi as a new coach then Kobbie becomes the key player in the team.
Jason Wilcox needs to tell all concerned, there’s no hurry to sell Kobbie or even discuss selling him until this time next summer if he can’t find a starting position within the squad.
I genuinely believe Ruben has the right ideas but Kobbie must not be sold, Garnaucho is replaceable like Hojlund and Zirkzee but not Kobbie?This is massively concerning to me. Selling Mainoo and Garnacho and then sacking the manager 10-12 games in leaving us back at square one seems the direction of travel for this circus.
Let’s hope your right but Ruben must start well next season and knowing how badly run we are, the club probably doesn’t even have a plan B going forward in terms of a new Coach if Ruben fails?Xavi being the coach is not a good thing. He's also a shill for Qatar, so he'd likely refuse us, badmouthing us to the press to appease his paymasters.
I doubt Ineos will sack Amorim so early into his tenure, either, even if only for financial reasons.
For the last time I rate Ruben very highly when he has his specialist players available to play his formation and he has to turn a 30% win rate in the EPL into 55-60% win rate to be Successful in making us a top 4 Club again.You're way too negative about Amorim. It irritates me and makes me want to cry.
I mean I hate to put it in such brutal terms but is Mainoo really irreplaceable? Bluntly, we've played our best football of the season these past few months and he hasn't been available for any of them.I genuinely believe Ruben has the right ideas but Kobbie must not be sold, Garnaucho is replaceable like Hojlund and Zirkzee but not Kobbie?
I think Garnacho/Mainoo sales (or at least one of them) will probably happen irrespective of Amorim’s job security as they represent one of the few ways for us to earn profit/comply with these silly PSR rules to waste more money.
He's not irreplaceable* but selling a good and potentially great academy player to fix years of fecked up transfer policies seems so depressing to me. Like genuinely, what's the point of any of this anymore if academy players are only being developed in our system to fix our FFP/PSR problems?I mean I hate to put it in such brutal terms but is Mainoo really irreplaceable? Bluntly, we've played our best** football of the season these past few months and he hasn't been available for any of them.
I think Mainoo is fairly easily replaceable in this team.
Why even mention the possibility of Amorim getting sacked? If we recruit properly, he won't be going anywhere.For the last time I rate Ruben very highly when he has his specialist players available to play his formation and he has to turn a 30% win rate in the EPL into 55-60% win rate to be Successful in making us a top 4 Club again.
The board must back him this summer, then he must back himself however if any fan believes he will still be in the job next year with a 30% win rate and 45% loss rate after 20 PL games they are sadly just not living in the real world.Thats not negative that’s a harsh reality.
I pray and hope he does what he did at Sporting and makes us a free scoring well oiled, high energy team that doesn’t give the other team 1 yard of space and produces wining football.
Football improvement -> Mainoo injury is correlation, not really causation.
A bunch of different things started clicking together - Heaven's emergence, Bruno x Ugarte deep, Zirkzee improving and doing well as one of the #10s, Dorgu signing at LWB, Yoro improving significantly etc. We were in quite a bit of chaos when Mainoo was playing. Relegation was a real possibility.
Excited to have him back and see how he does now that the side is settling down a bit and getting more and more familiar with Amorim's system.
Not really, we have been playing better with a ugarte + casemiro and with either zirkzee ok the bench or up front as well.Football improvement -> Mainoo injury is correlation, not really causation.
A bunch of different things started clicking together - Heaven's emergence, Bruno x Ugarte deep, Zirkzee improving and doing well as one of the #10s, Dorgu signing at LWB, Yoro improving significantly etc. We were in quite a bit of chaos when Mainoo was playing. Relegation was a real possibility.
Excited to have him back and see how he does now that the side is settling down a bit and getting more and more familiar with Amorim's system.
And in 3 years when he’s bossing a top teams midfield and worth £100m+I mean I hate to put it in such brutal terms but is Mainoo really irreplaceable? Bluntly, we've played our best football of the season these past few months and he hasn't been available for any of them.
I think Mainoo is fairly easily replaceable in this team.
