Kevin Strootman

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Brophs said:
It's all well and good buying more midfielders, but if we keep cnuting around putting two up front and making Rooney a sort of midfielder then it won't matter a jot anyway.
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We wont. Everything ive read about Van Gaal tells me he is a pragmatist who understands systems in football. He has/is experimented with both of these things but Im sure sooner or later (sooner hopefully) he'll accept when something isnt working and change it. Same as he did with 3 at the back. The two up front thing falls into the same category. Not sure about Rooney in midfield, I dont think that is as clear cut.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
There's no two ways about it. The idea that Carrick tends to avoid passing the ball forward is one of the most brain-dead myths in football.
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No matter what stats you show, people will still agrue that Carrick doesnt pass forward, even when there is piles of evidence to suggest otherwise.
 
Getsme said:
No matter what stats you show, people will still agrue that Carrick doesnt pass forward, even when there is piles of evidence to suggest otherwise.
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when Carrick is in deep position (90% of the time) he passes forward, when up high on the pitch, he will recycle possession. He usually wont put a risky pass forward, a through ball... its fecking simple (how many assist does Carrick gets?), and i think THAT is why SOME PEOPLE say he pass sideways without taking into account the reality of the situation, that Carrick pass forward when in his position. (personally i had never said he pass sideways... never would... carrick is class)

i would love a Carrick-Vidal-Di Maria midfield... but feck it...
 
Adebesi said:
We wont. Everything ive read about Van Gaal tells me he is a pragmatist who understands systems in football. He has/is experimented with both of these things but Im sure sooner or later (sooner hopefully) he'll accept when something isnt working and change it. Same as he did with 3 at the back. The two up front thing falls into the same category. Not sure about Rooney in midfield, I dont think that is as clear cut.
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I hope you're right.

As for Rooney in midfield, it'll just be more of the same quite-decent-but-nowhere-near-as-good-as-you'd-get-from-a-top-midfielder type performances. Personally I can't see the point in that. If we're really that tied to him then feck Falcao off and spend the money on a player we really need.
 
Brophs said:
I hope you're right.

As for Rooney in midfield, it'll just be more of the same quite-decent-but-nowhere-near-as-good-as-you'd-get-from-a-top-midfielder type performances. Personally I can't see the point in that. If we're really that tied to him then feck Falcao off and spend the money on a player we really need.
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The Rooney situation frustrates the hell out of me.
 
Brophs said:
I hope you're right.

As for Rooney in midfield, it'll just be more of the same quite-decent-but-nowhere-near-as-good-as-you'd-get-from-a-top-midfielder type performances. Personally I can't see the point in that. If we're really that tied to him then feck Falcao off and spend the money on a player we really need.
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Im inclined to agree. What it comes back to for me though is Van Gaal coming out and saying he didnt like Rooney as a striker. He could easily change his mind about that I guess but when you have Van Gaal saying 1) he doesnt rate Rooney's performances as a striker and 2) Rooney will always play, clearly you have a recipe for Rooney playing in midfield every week.

As I said, I believe Van Gaal is pragmatic enough to change if he thinks something isnt working. I dont think he will stick to this out of bloody mindedness. It depends on what it was that led him to criticise Rooney's performance up front (as I remember it I thought he had done OK and was quite surprised when I read it) and what he looks for in his strikers. Maybe Rooney just doesnt fit his own specific criteria of what a striker should be. Anyway, I havent given up on Rooney playing up front (a few hours ago I put him there in my formation for the Palace match), I am just less convinced Van Gaal will come round to this way of thinking than I am with the 2 up front thing. Which just looks more obviously like lunacy.
 
I may be being slow here, but who's to say that LVG hasn't already abandoned playing 2 up front?

He's not done it for the last three matches... OK, so two of our three main strikers have been unavailable, but he's shown that he has faith in Wilson (bringing him on for RVP and Mata when we needed a goal). If he was dead-set on playing 2 up front, he could still have done so.
 
Adebesi said:
Im inclined to agree. What it comes back to for me though is Van Gaal coming out and saying he didnt like Rooney as a striker. He could easily change his mind about that I guess but when you have Van Gaal saying 1) he doesnt rate Rooney's performances as a striker and 2) Rooney will always play, clearly you have a recipe for Rooney playing in midfield every week.

As I said, I believe Van Gaal is pragmatic enough to change if he thinks something isnt working. I dont think he will stick to this out of bloody mindedness. It depends on what it was that led him to criticise Rooney's performance up front (as I remember it I thought he had done OK and was quite surprised when I read it) and what he looks for in his strikers. Maybe Rooney just doesnt fit his own specific criteria of what a striker should be. Anyway, I havent given up on Rooney playing up front (a few hours ago I put him there in my formation for the Palace match), I am just less convinced Van Gaal will come round to this way of thinking than I am with the 2 up front thing. Which just looks more obviously like lunacy.
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At the time that stank of justification for crowbarring the three of them into the same line-up. If he can fob off Rooney as not being an actual striker it looks slightly less demented to sign Falcao and persist with starting a woefully out of form Van Persie in every game.
 
Get.sme said:
The Rooney situation frustrates the hell out of me.
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He's the best striker we have in the squad currently, though. And although I hate Rooney at #10, the way we've been playing the diamond has allowed the middle man to play more like a central striker, with the two forwards making runs off to the left and right. If we play that way then Rooney is our best option in that role.

An injury to Van Persie, as horrible as it may sound, and I think we'll stumble upon something very good. He's a bigger issue than Rooney is at the moment.
 
As for Strootman, we definitely need another all rounder in the squad and I like what I've seen of him. It seems like it's a matter of when and not if.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
You know you've got serious problems at your club when you start wishing injuries on your own players! (not that I disagree fwiw)
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Don't get me wrong, I don't want to see any injuries in the squad, but I do think if that did transpire, which it probably will, we'll stumble on something better. Ideally, Van Gaal would just leave him on the bench. Someone has got to make way eventually.
 
Kag said:
An injury to Van Persie, as horrible as it may sound, and I think we'll stumble upon something very good. He's a bigger issue than Rooney is at the moment.
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given rvp's long term record of injuries he is probably due one - though with the way our luck is you would have expected him to pick one up at the same time as falcao when rooney was suspended.
 
sun_tzu said:
given rvp's long term record of injuries he is probably due one - though with the way our luck is you would have expected him to pick one up at the same time as falcao when rooney was suspended.
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Something else that belongs in the "what the feck were we doing" thread about Welbeck is the fact we've been so lucky that Van Persie seems to have got over his constant injuries from last season.

With Falcao evidently still not fit enough to start/finish games on a regular basis we could very easily have ended up needing to start young James Wilson in the games against Chelsea and West Brom. Only we probably couldn't have started him because of the ongoing ankle niggles that means he hardly ever completes an U21 game.
 
I can't see this happening in January but if LvG is hellbent on buying Strootman then it will happen in the summer. My worry is that it almost certainly means Di Maria will be kept on the wing as I don't see LvG playing 3 lefties in midfield given his love of balance, and it probably means Herrera will mostly be on the bench unless we get rid of Falcao and RvP in the summer and play Rooney as the #9 in the front 3.
 
Speak said:
Yeah, the fact that Herrera was sanctioned by van Gaal and not targeted leads me to think he's the most dispensable in his eyes.
Even if we were to bring in Strootman, I'm still not convinced that any of the midfield variations would be quite 'there'.

I don't love the sound of Rooney, Blind and Strootman.
Di Maria, Herrera and Strootman has the speed and energy, but lacks the discipline.
Di Maria, Blind and Strootman maybe lacks the energy and speed, but could work.

I think we may end up with what you predict: Rooney ahead of Blind and Strootman, and Di Maria wide.
Can't say I'd love that, but maybe it would surprise us.
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Sadly that's the midfield I see us ending up with and I don't think it will work, Rooney's not an AM or a #10, he's what Platini christened Del Piero, basically what we call a second striker in England.

The one I think works best as far as attributes go is Blind/Di Maria/Strootman as you have a holding mid, a box to box powerhouse and a fast, skillful AM. The only issue is that they are all primarily left footed.

Trizy said:
I think so too, with Carrick just back is there really need for another Carrick?
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Carrick is more like Blind than Strootman who is a powerful, aggressive box to box CM who likes to drive forward with the ball.
 
I reckon this wil happen at some point, far more likely to be next Summer though.

Strootman, Blind, Herrera, Di Maria. Carrick, Fellaini

Thats some seriously good midfield options.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Something else that belongs in the "what the feck were we doing" thread about Welbeck is the fact we've been so lucky that Van Persie seems to have got over his constant injuries from last season.

With Falcao evidently still not fit enough to start/finish games on a regular basis we could very easily have ended up needing to start young James Wilson in the games against Chelsea and West Brom. Only we probably couldn't have started him because of the ongoing ankle niggles that means he hardly ever completes an U21 game.
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Not sure whether RVP was physically or mentally injured last season most of the time tbh.....
 
Good player but he's overrated on here, there's a feeling he will sign for us and so most of us are braced for that. If we're going to spend upwards of 30m for a b2b midfielder, Vidal is the best there is [both in talent and presence] and that's the one we should be going for.
 
Sam said:
I reckon this wil happen at some point, far more likely to be next Summer though.

Strootman, Blind, Herrera, Di Maria. Carrick, Fellaini

Thats some seriously good midfield options.
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It is and hopefully we will be back in the CL, so there will be plenty of games to round.
 
wiz4231 said:
I think if we were to get him we would play with a CM pair and a #10. That would mean Blind would be most at risk.
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I could be wrong but I dont think Strootman is any better at snuffing out opposition attacks around the edge of our box than Blind is.

Its on the ball and hitting the back of the net where he's seen as the superior player, and pressing higher up the pitch he still wins the ball plenty of times similar to how Ander does. But thats not the same as sitting and protecting the defence.

So if we take Blind/Carrick out of the lineup we'll only be worse defensively than we already are.

Stootman certainly didn't look any better than Blind has looked in the holding role when he played it for the under 21s before he moved to Roma and he didn't look like the player he went on to be for Roma last year on the left of the diamond where he was allowed to attack and defend.

It would seem quite simple - He plays on the left of a diamond for Roma. We play a diamond and we have Ander doing the same job on the right. So... Kevin on the left and Di Maria can play further forward where we don't suffer for him not tracking back and putting in tackles.

Most likely Di Maria starts instead of Mata in the hole and Rooney has to win his place as a striker. And Mata is the one upset that he's not playing often enough
 
George Owen said:
when Carrick is in deep position (90% of the time) he passes forward, when up high on the pitch, he will recycle possession. He usually wont put a risky pass forward, a through ball... its fecking simple (how many assist does Carrick gets?), and i think THAT is why SOME PEOPLE say he pass sideways without taking into account the reality of the situation, that Carrick pass forward when in his position. (personally i had never said he pass sideways... never would... carrick is class)

i would love a Carrick-Vidal-Di Maria midfield... but feck it...
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Which is quite reasonable on his part, don't you think? If he attempts a risky through ball miles out of position, with Cleverley as cover, do people have any idea what will happen?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
He signed Herrera. He has also recently dropped him.
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I thought more of his players the guys from the netherlands or players he worked with in the past, not players we wanted for years and he gave his ok. But lets be honest, i cant see him dropping Strootman, unless he has an absolute mare. He dropped most of the other players, RvP seems untouchable. Blind is excellent so no complains, but RvP could have been easily dropped. He didnt hesitate to drop Herrera or Mata. Rooney and Di Maria wont get dropped too no matter how bad they play, Strootman would be in the same category as far as i think how highly LvG rates him.
 
Ekeke said:
I could be wrong but I dont think Strootman is any better at snuffing out opposition attacks around the edge of our box than Blind is.

Its on the ball and hitting the back of the net where he's seen as the superior player, and pressing higher up the pitch he still wins the ball plenty of times similar to how Ander does. But thats not the same as sitting and protecting the defence.

So if we take Blind/Carrick out of the lineup we'll only be worse defensively than we already are.

Stootman certainly didn't look any better than Blind has looked in the holding role when he played it for the under 21s before he moved to Roma and he didn't look like the player he went on to be for Roma last year on the left of the diamond where he was allowed to attack and defend.

It would seem quite simple - He plays on the left of a diamond for Roma. We play a diamond and we have Ander doing the same job on the right. So... Kevin on the left and Di Maria can play further forward where we don't suffer for him not tracking back and putting in tackles.

Most likely Di Maria starts instead of Mata in the hole and Rooney has to win his place as a striker. And Mata is the one upset that he's not playing often enough
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If we have Strootman and Herrera sitting deep with either 1 moving further up the pitch to help the attack we will be okay, either can dictate from the holding role (dropping between the defence)
 
Brophs said:
I hope you're right.

As for Rooney in midfield, it'll just be more of the same quite-decent-but-nowhere-near-as-good-as-you'd-get-from-a-top-midfielder type performances. Personally I can't see the point in that. If we're really that tied to him then feck Falcao off and spend the money on a player we really need.
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Rooney is the least of our problems imo since he can play both the no10, lone man upfront and support striker to an acceptable standard. The biggest issue for me has been the reluctance of LVG to do something about RVP's half arsed performances ( well in the last three matches he couldn't really do anything due to Falcao's unavailability). I don't see anything stopping us from playing Rooney up top with Van Persie or Falcao and having Di Maria at the tip of the diamond where his cavalier approach won't hurt us defensively. Given that Carrick is back we can play Blind o the left side of the diamond, but with more emphasis o the defensive and ball retention side, Carrick at the base, Herrera o the right and Di Maria at the tip with Rooney playing as second striker, which will allow him the luxury to go around chasing playing like he wants but at no expense to the side and Falcao up top.
When Strootman comes he take that left midfield role and Blind will take over from Carrick.
 
wiz4231 said:
If we have Strootman and Herrera sitting deep with either 1 moving further up the pitch to help the attack we will be okay, either can dictate from the holding role (dropping between the defence)
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Possibly

But that was the theory behind Gerrard-Lampard too

I'm more inclined to believe it works better when one player is designated the more defensive job ala Carrick or Blind
 
Ekeke said:
Possibly

But that was the theory behind Gerrard-Lampard too

I'm more inclined to believe it works better when one player is designated the more defensive job ala Carrick or Blind
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I wouldn't mind playing three box to box players with Strootman - Herrera - starting deeper, taking turns in starting attacks and di Maria palying infront of them helping to defend as well but with more freedom in attacking. That would be good for 4-3-3 but we don't have wingers.. adnan is one and we need at least two Depay and Reus. If REAL can play with Modric/Kroos and James I believe we are defensively better with the three mentioned above..
 
Ekeke said:
Possibly

But that was the theory behind Gerrard-Lampard too

I'm more inclined to believe it works better when one player is designated the more defensive job ala Carrick or Blind
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Fair point. For me the use of Carrick/Blind depends on whether we want to play with a true holding player or not, i mean wanting to set up defensively or attacking. Either way both CM should play and the use of #10 or DM should depend on set up.
 
Kag said:
Don't get me wrong, I don't want to see any injuries in the squad, but I do think if that did transpire, which it probably will, we'll stumble on something better. Ideally, Van Gaal would just leave him on the bench. Someone has got to make way eventually.
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We tried this with Mata when Rooney was suspended, but it didn't work very well. I think we have to accept that with the state of our midfield, we're better off with Rooney than without. It's the same problem we've had for years, having a central midfield that allows the rest of the team to play.
 
Am I alone in being content with our current midfield choices? Herrera, Di Maria, Blind and Fellaini have all impressed when they've been played there and Carrick's back now as well.

Don't get me wrong, if he was available on a free or if money was no object I'd take a fully covered Strootman in a second, but otherwise I'd prioritise both a centreback and a winger.
 
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dsch said:
We tried this with Mata when Rooney was suspended, but it didn't work very well. I think we have to accept that with the state of our midfield, we're better off with Rooney than without. It's the same problem we've had for years, having a central midfield that allows the rest of the team to play.
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I was talking about Van Persie. Anyway, I think our midfield is as good as it's been in years at the moment. We'll only add to it, too.
 
JPRouve said:
For me the midfield Strootman-Herrera-Blind is better than the midfield Di Maria-Herrera-Blind, with Strootman you have a better control of the events.
Di Maria is individually better but he is less stable, less regular and weaker defensively.
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Yet Real Madrid flourished last season with Di Maria in midfield, even in big games. This notion that Di Maria is a big weakness in midfield puzzles me with that in mind.

We should be building the midfield around him rather than shifting him out of position just so inferior players can take his place. If Di Maria-Herrera- Blind isn't stable enough then replace Blind or Herrera with a player who makes it more stable. It shouldn't be too difficult, it's not like Real were playing with an ultra defensive midfield to compensate for Di Maria last year...
 
We do not have the same team, they have 3 better defenders in Pepe, Ramos and Carvajal (Arbeloa).
They also have two players who are constantly man marked in Ronaldo and Bale, which gave space for Di Maria.
And most importantly Modric and Alonso were immense, Khedira too.

Di Maria is better individually but that doesn't mean that we have the players to compliment him, at the moment Strootman alone or someone with the same abilities would be more helpful.
But obviously if we have the money to create a totally different team around Di Maria i'm all for it.
 
Is he back playing yet?
 
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