I think he probably does, helping your team to win the biggest trophy is one of the benchmarks of turning a great player into a really great one
Kevin De Bruyne
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Jamie (@Vault Dweller) are here to talk about United's dreadful home defeat at the hands of Big Ange's Tottenham Hotspur. Should this have been the end of Ten Hag? How long does he actually have left? And does Nik finally want ETH out?!
Cantona never needed that. But we live in era where apparently only the CL and the WC counts and nothing else for some fans. Of course i am aware about the difference about Cantonas United and Man City which is a sheiks vanity project.
Ginger cnut.
A bit like Scholes then but without biting off his daughters toenails.
I don't disagree, times have changed, Cantona in today's game would need to win the CL/WC to be considered a generational talent - I personally disagree but that's the way it is
As much as I don't like the cnut or City.
That was such sweet strike last night.
That was such sweet strike last night.
He’s already among the best midfielders in the last decades, he doesn’t really need the CL win as he’s been impeccable on a club level and has proven on the biggest stage multiple times, he will regret not achieving more and not being more of a carry with Belgium though.
But I think he's better than Gerrard and Lampard and they've both done that and he hasn't (yet). I also liked Scholes more than Gerrard and Lampard for similar reasons, although Scholes has obviously won the CL.
Well you should ask your fellow supporters because some of them here think Grealish is better.
He’s sensational. Like Henry said, he’s not one of us 
I agree but it's the fans perception now that's different, someone mentioned Cantona earlier, he, IMO, was a generational talent, the modern fan wouldn't think so because he never won a CL/WC
He is already seen as such, no?
Unless you mean he isn’t put on the same level as Xavi/Modric/Kroos/Iniesta but I’d argue he is just a bit below them. Otherwise, yeah generational player and certainly amongst the best in the last couple of years.
I wouldn't put Kroos in the same category as Modric, Xavi, and Iniesta. I don't really think of Kroos as a generational talent. He has the team trophies for sure but I wouldn't say he was the driving force that you'd expect generational talents to be, From Germany, I'd still rate Schweinsteiger > Kroos and I'd say De Bruyne is probably a greater all-time talent than Kroos.
Why would De Bruyne be a greater all time talent than Kroos?
It's a good point. Cantona does indeed occupy a very specific category but there is circumstantial stuff with him. His international career was cut short because Jacquet excluded him and I think he was just in England at the wrong time for the CL, when English clubs were just back in the competition after the ban and it took them a while to get up to speed. I know that sounds like excuses but I really think they're viable factors as to why his best stuff seemed to be confined to English domestic football
When was the last time a United midfielder scored such a screamer? How I miss Scholes...
I agree, but with the point the other poster raised, if he had multiple CL wins, would he be mentioned in that company more often? Is that what it takes to go from generational great to all time great?
I think it's because some have done it in the CL and WC.
That being said, I really discount the WC because if you're born in a certain country, you ain't winning it.
He's the best attacking midfielder since at least Zidane and one of the best ever in terms of ability and talent. He 100% needs the CL because his talent demands it, because he rightfully won't get that level of recognition without the big moments that only come from either CL or international football. It'd be like Messi finishing his career without a WC
We leave in an era where every decent team qualifies to the UCL, it’s harder to judge R9 on his CL performances when he spend most of his pre-injury career playing other European competitions (and winning them)… We are in an era where KDB has around him -by far- the best team in England. And the only time they are really likely to face great difficulty is the later stages of the UCL.
Back in the days, domestic football was much more balanced between top and bottom teams.
I might be biased of course, and they are different kind of players, but I’d rate Kroos in that tier.
Perhaps, part of it is of course showing it on the biggest stage. And Kroos has been one the midfield architects for a side that won 3 CL titles in a row. KdB, justified or not, has had this loom over his head. The lack of big game performances (again, not saying it is true).
Other than that, I feel he has the skillset. Just not the big moments like Iniesta or Modric have had on multiple occassions. Especially picking up the slack and dragging the team forward.
Iniesta was better. Both Zidane and Iniesta were big game players and at their best at a similar level but the later was more consistent. The only reason why Iniesta does not get as much recognition is because he played with and was overshadowed by Messi.
And of course for a Real Madrid fan, it's convenient to ignore a Barcelona player.
But you can put in great individual performances even without winning it. For example Stoitchkov, Hagi, Suker, Modric, Baggio, Cruijff, Eusebio to name a few.
I don't think he defines Iniesta as an attacking midfielder.
I hate to say it but he is better than Scholes. For me, the best in his position in the Premier league era.
I totally agree. It was difficult at the time for English clubs to win the champions league.
Is Cantona seen as one of the greatest players ever? Maybe by Manchester United fans but by others? I never see Cantona appear in any ''greatest players'' lists.
I mean De Bruyne isn't either.
Definitely both in the conversation for greatest Prem players ever.
De Bruyne will be in those ''greatest premier league XI' lists. Gerrard and Lampard are only competition for him because they are English.
Some people would put Cantona in those lists.
I would, Cantona is one of the most influential players in England of the last 30 odd years, ask any of the class of 92, he was also not bad at Kung Fu
You dont have to be a top 10 best players ever to be a true great and one of the most influential players. He is easily one of the most influential pl players ever and was the key player in kickstarting man utds dominance. I would take him easily over a lot of his team mates who went on to win 1 or 2 cl's after he retired.
Greatest players ever is a very high bar. There's very few players from the prem era that are legit in that category. Is Shearer one of the greatest players ever? Not in my book. Cantona is surely one of the best players of his time and that's plenty good enough.
Scholes and Keane might be ahead of all of them I think.
Yet none of those are ever in the top five of players. Not a slight, that's why the WC is a meaningless benchmark.
Cruijjf is. Eusebio and Baggio are considered amongst top 10 and 20 respectively. Ofcourse opinions vary with regards to position.
Anyway, it depends on context. For a player who has done nothing at club level, a single world cup doesn't matter, a flash in the pan.
For a player who is also great for his club, it adds significantly to their legacy. If not win it, atleast perform at high level during one especially when not playing for a big footballing nation.
The whole world cup is pointless began after Qatar 2022 to defend Ronaldo's total failure at the tournaments.
Do we still think it’s “ridiculous” to even compare him to Beckham?
Drews comparison with Scholes strike vs Barcelona. Could well have big impact on the tie itself.
KDB will go into that group of best midfielders in the PL history but its a strong group. Truth is any 3 from Keane, Scholes, Vieira, Gerrard, Lampard and KDB can make up the midfield and not be a wrong answer. Arguably an argument for Kante too. KDB is probably the most productive in terms of end product. For me that 3 would be Vieira, Scholes, KDB but theres no real wrong answer. I also see personally see Gerrard as the weakest (probably tainted by playing in clearly the weakest team).
I also think KDB has the better international record compared to the English guys despite playing in a weaker team albeit in terms of goals he's scored the same as Lampard just in less games.
Personally I'd bump Scholes and KDB up a tier toward and have them closer to Modric, Xavi, Iniesta than the others but thats just me.
I also think KDB has the better international record compared to the English guys despite playing in a weaker team albeit in terms of goals he's scored the same as Lampard just in less games.
Personally I'd bump Scholes and KDB up a tier toward and have them closer to Modric, Xavi, Iniesta than the others but thats just me.
Cruyff isn't a top five player imo.
But I'm not sure we disagree or do I understand your Ronaldo point tbh.
My point is simply using WC performances to attest the best player of all time is a little overweighted due to the circumstances of your country of birth.