Keir Starmer Labour Leader

[ZupZup]

An anti European antisemitie is progressive?... to each their own

Any thoughts on the Forde report given you like to throw antisemitism accusations around like confetti at a wedding?

Didn’t it suggest the right of the party were weaponising antisemitism purely as a way to attack the left? Which would be a pretty antisemitic way to act if you ask me. You know, the same right of the party that was occupied by your dinner party mate, Gloria De Piero.

 

[Badunk]

I think Labour should not be trying to be Tory lite but should be proudly socialist and try to win people over by promoting the benefits of a fairer society while highlighting the corruption of the tories and the failure of their crony capitalism.

The party was established to be the party of the workers and it needs to stop being ashamed of that and of being fearful of annoying right wingers.

 

[OleGunnar20]

I think Labour should not be trying to be Tory lite but should be proudly socialist and try to win people over by promoting the benefits of a fairer society while highlighting the corruption of the tories and the failure of their crony capitalism.

The party was established to be the party of the workers and it needs to stop being ashamed of that and of being fearful of annoying right wingers.

Agreed, 100%. We have no real alternative left as Labour moves further to the right.

PR is needed, but I've no idea how we get out of FPTP's stranglehold to get there.

 

[TheGame]

I think Labour should not be trying to be Tory lite but should be proudly socialist and try to win people over by promoting the benefits of a fairer society while highlighting the corruption of the tories and the failure of their crony capitalism.

The party was established to be the party of the workers and it needs to stop being ashamed of that and of being fearful of annoying right wingers.

That's all sounds nice and good but won't in you votes. You can't make a difference until you get in power, you can't in power until you appeal to a broad spectrum of voters due to first past the post.

 

[TheGame]

Any thoughts on the Forde report given you like to throw antisemitism accusations around like confetti at a wedding?

Didn’t it suggest the right of the party were weaponising antisemitism purely as a way to attack the left? Which would be a pretty antisemitic way to act if you ask me. You know, the same right of the party that was occupied by your dinner party mate, Gloria De Piero.

I thought the report suggested both sides were weaponising it.

 

[ZupZup]

I thought the report suggested both sides were weaponising it.

In the sense that it claimed the left weaponised it by defending themselves against the factional attacks from the right.

When you read the report, the “both sides” thing is a bit bemusing when you look at the facts. It seems like a soft attempt to appease the right.

 

[TheGame]

In the sense that it claimed the left weaponised it by defending themselves against the factional attacks from the right.

When you read the report, the “both sides” thing is a bit bemusing when you look at the facts. It seems like a soft attempt to appease the right.

It doesn't state that all, it refers to both sides being responsible.

 

[Smores]

It doesn't state that all, it refers to both sides being responsible.

The likes of Hodge sent in 100s of cases and by all accounts the vast vast majority weren't even Labour members, then she stood in parliament and complained they were being delayed on purpose. All whilst key staff were intentionally going slow and don't get me started on Watson.

Of course Corbyn was responsible for the failures in policy he was the leader. He failed to correct procedures that were unfit when he took office, had he done so he could have challenged those attacking him. The idea of both siding the conduct when it's such an obvious stitch up though is a bit transparent.

 

[TheGame]

The likes of Hodge sent in 100s of cases and by all accounts the vast vast majority weren't even Labour members, then she stood in parliament and complained they were being delayed on purpose. All whilst key staff were intentionally going slow and don't get me started on Watson.

Of course Corbyn was responsible for the failures in policy he was the leader. He failed to correct procedures that were unfit when he took office, had he done so he could have challenged those attacking him. The idea of both siding the conduct when it's such an obvious stitch up though is a bit transparent.

If an investigation has been carried out, people can only go on the results of that investigation and not cherry picking the results of it to suit their narrative otherwise the report is pointless.

 

[Badunk]

Isn't it a problem that we go through Corbyn's 'failures' with a fine toothed comb as the reason why Labour wasn't elected but a lying, racist, incompetent, cosplaying, fat, adulterous bastard can do whatever he wants for 3 years and only gets the boot because his own people got fed up lying for him and being caught out?

The UK is a scam democracy.

 

[TheGame]

Isn't it a problem that we go through Corbyn's 'failures' with a fine toothed comb as the reason why Labour wasn't elected but a lying, racist, incompetent, cosplaying, fat, adulterous bastard can do whatever he wants for 3 years and only gets the boot because his own people got fed up lying for him and being caught out?

The UK is a scam democracy.

Democracy is this country has been destroyed during the EU Referendum and since. Now anyone can openly lie and no one will bat an eyelid. It's a joke.

 

[Maticmaker]

Democracy is this country has been destroyed during the EU Referendum and since. Now anyone can openly lie and no one will bat an eyelid. It's a joke.

Government by the people/ or 'mob rule'... Boris was right about one thing when the 'Herd' moves, everything moves!

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

He should get on the TV and paint Lizzy Dripping as the most dangerous and extreme right wing probable PM since the 1830's when the Tolpuddle Martyrs were being transported to Australia.

If he is concerned about the strikes becoming unpopular as they drag on, side step that issue and focus on the right to strike and what it will mean to remove it. When the new law banning strikes is broken, because it is unjust and so will be, are we jailing the leaders, is that acceptable in 2022. There are still 8 million trade unionists in the UK that is a lot of people to remove a hard won fundamental right from.

The public sector employees like the police who can't strike, have independent pay review bodies, are they setting up such bodies or are they just going to let employers decide how much to pay people and ride anyone dissenting down with horses and batons.

The conservative leadership campaign has presented a great opportunity to define both candidates as extreme reactionaries and win the next election. Just because it appeals to a membership of 160,000 people doesn't mean its a vote winner with the public at large.

 

[jeff_goldblum]

Democracy is this country has been destroyed during the EU Referendum and since. Now anyone can openly lie and no one will bat an eyelid. It's a joke.

We need to get past this fantasy that Brexit was a monolithic event which had no preamble and from which all bad things now spring.

Our democracy isn't fecked because Brexit happened. Brexit happened because our democracy is fecked. The tribalism around Brexit has exacerbated existing issues, but it by no means created them.

 

[711]

He should get on the TV and paint Lizzy Dripping as the most dangerous and extreme right wing probable PM since the 1830's when the Tolpuddle Martyrs were being transported to Australia.

If he is concerned about the strikes becoming unpopular as they drag on, side step that issue and focus on the right to strike and what it will mean to remove it. When the new law banning strikes is broken, because it is unjust and so will be, are we jailing the leaders, is that acceptable in 2022. There are still 8 million trade unionists in the UK that is a lot of people to remove a hard won fundamental right from.

The public sector employees like the police who can't strike, have independent pay review bodies, are they setting up such bodies or are they just going to let employers decide how much to pay people and ride anyone dissenting down with horses and batons.

The conservative leadership campaign has presented a great opportunity to define both candidates as extreme reactionaries and win the next election. Just because it appeals to a membership of 160,000 people doesn't mean its a vote winner with the public at large.

Good points. I am in favour of all public sector pay deals decided by review bodies, but additionally with the recommendations voted on by parliament.

Not sure how many people remember Lizzie Dripping though

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

Good points. I am in favour of all public sector pay deals decided by review bodies, but additionally with the recommendations voted on by parliament.

Not sure how many people remember Lizzie Dripping though

I thought the characterization was quite apt as she had an imaginary witch that followed her around. Given Truss' channeling of Thatcher.

 

[Raven]

We need to get past this fantasy that Brexit was a monolithic event which had no preamble and from which all bad things now spring.

Our democracy isn't fecked because Brexit happened. Brexit happened because our democracy is fecked. The tribalism around Brexit has exacerbated existing issues, but it by no means created them.

Yup, British democracy has almost forever been a grand illusion.

 

[TheGame]

We need to get past this fantasy that Brexit was a monolithic event which had no preamble and from which all bad things now spring.

Our democracy isn't fecked because Brexit happened. Brexit happened because our democracy is fecked. The tribalism around Brexit has exacerbated existing issues, but it by no means created them.

Deliberate lies were told during the referendum, different tactics were used by people like Cummings to get their message across and it worked. All politicians lied to an extent previously but now its an everyday thing with no consequences.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

You wouldn't vote for Starmer unless you lived in his constituency.

Therein lies the issue. Everyone seems to be pandering to these Brexit numpties so they don't get labelled with overturning the 'will of the people'. We can't dare call Brexit a disaster due to offending these idiots. Labour are doing the same. It's an endless pile of shite.

He is the party leader. Ultimately he is responsible for the direction of the party. I did vote Labour in our local council elections but wouldn't vote Labour in a GE because of Starmer.

The will of the people line is rubbish, you are right. The will of 2% more people than the alternative, in a vote where at least 30% of the population didn't vote. Crazy.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Any thoughts on the Forde report given you like to throw antisemitism accusations around like confetti at a wedding?

Didn’t it suggest the right of the party were weaponising antisemitism purely as a way to attack the left? Which would be a pretty antisemitic way to act if you ask me. You know, the same right of the party that was occupied by your dinner party mate, Gloria De Piero.

The Forde Report could've been written specifically for @sun_tzu. Weakening the real fight against anti semitism by politicising it.

 

[matt23]

Tory in red

 

[ZupZup]

It doesn't state that all, it refers to both sides being responsible.

Ok mate. I’ve read the report and clearly so have you given your response.

Give me some examples from the report of the left of Labour Party weaponising antisemitism?

 

[Longshanks]

I think Labour should not be trying to be Tory lite but should be proudly socialist and try to win people over by promoting the benefits of a fairer society while highlighting the corruption of the tories and the failure of their crony capitalism.

The party was established to be the party of the workers and it needs to stop being ashamed of that and of being fearful of annoying right wingers.

Are you convinced that the majority of 'workers' want a left wing socialist party?

Train drivers and rail workers, do you think there all left wing socialist's? I'm actually willing to bet that not alot of them not being a member of a union doesn't make you a left wing socialist it also dosent instantly make you a Labour voter.

The vast majority of people 'the electorate' if you like are not left wing socialists infact they don't really have a particular political ideal, they just vote for the least worst party, the one they think will best for them. They don't care about nurses using food banks as much as they don't care about illegal immigrants crossing the channel every day. When it comes to election time they care about how themselves and the little bubble they live in is going to be affected by who they vote for.

They don't care about left wing right wing socialism, centrist, neo Liberalism they don't care about ideals and you cant rely on there empathy to be willing to help others.

But they can be very easily swayed by the media, its why corbyn ultimately failed he was so easy to attack and to be honest any really idealistic left wing socialist would suffer the same fate from the largely right wing media.

 

[stw2022]

The problem with the left is that they’d rather see a Tory in Downing Street than a Labour leader who isn’t a radical socialist. They also seem immune to the problems successive Tory governments cause to public services that most impact the people they claim to represent.

Blair will never be forgiven primarily for breaking what would have otherwise been 40 years of glorious, principled opposition.

That’s why Corbyn losing (twice) didn’t matter to them. Winning has never been a priority and never will be. The hard left see themselves as a protest movement and that’s absolutely fine but a protest movement with scant regards to ever really achieving power - or who at least don’t really ever seem to have seen that as a particular priority - will always be for factional reasons more supportive of the idea of a Tory PM they can oppose then a Labour PM they fear they might be held accountable for.

They’ll attack the Tories, that’s their bread and butter. The crowd pleaser. But yet will ALWAYS save the most vitriol for ‘impure’ leaders of the Labour Party. It’s why every successful Labour leader has been hated by the hard left, even those the hard left erroneously try to reclaim as their own retrospectively. In 40 years they’ll be denying that they were always a disruptive and objectionable influence in the party by trying to claim Blair as one of their own as they seem to do now with Atlee and Wilson, neither of which were from close to the left of the party but are now retconned into contemporary radical socialists by those who at the time would have aligned themselves with their harsher critics from within their own party

Corbyn trailing massively in the polls, even his wife/mother/best friend/dog thinking he stood no chance, cheered the hard left because that’s their comfort zone. That’s why the support was so intense and why the bitterness since his departure has been more pronounced than you see with supporters of most leaders when they’re forced out

 

[nickm]

It's not going to get elected as a left wing socialist party, people are not going to vote for that due to the political system we are in. Tried that with Corbyn and in the 80s, didn't work. He needs to appeal to a broad spectrum of voters Labour did when they won successive elections in the late 90s / 00s. However the fudging around the elephant in the room around Brexit is stupid and appealing to immigration haters isn't the way to go.

In our system Labour needs Tory votes to win. Everything else follows from this.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Are you convinced that the majority of 'workers' want a left wing socialist party?

Train drivers and rail workers, do you think there all left wing socialist's? I'm actually willing to bet that not alot of them not being a member of a union doesn't make you a left wing socialist it also dosent instantly make you a Labour voter.

The vast majority of people 'the electorate' if you like are not left wing socialists infact they don't really have a particular political ideal, they just vote for the least worst party, the one they think will best for them. They don't care about nurses using food banks as much as they don't care about illegal immigrants crossing the channel every day. When it comes to election time they care about how themselves and the little bubble they live in is going to be affected by who they vote for.

They don't care about left wing right wing socialism, centrist, neo Liberalism they don't care about ideals and you cant rely on there empathy to be willing to help others.

But they can be very easily swayed by the media, its why corbyn ultimately failed he was so easy to attack and to be honest any really idealistic left wing socialist would suffer the same fate from the largely right wing media.

Pragmatic socialist policies presented in a more traditional way, as promised by Keir Starmer in his leadership bid, would be palatable to most workers. They are popular policies.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

The problem with the left is that they’d rather see a Tory in Downing Street than a Labour leader who isn’t a radical socialist.

Personally I cannot support Starmer because he lied his way to the Labour leadership and has backtracked on all of the 10 pledges he made less than 3 years ago. Its not about some idealistic need for a radical socialist, it's about credibility and the need to compromise.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

In our system Labour needs Tory votes to win. Everything else follows from this.

Or higher voter turnout, engaging with the 30%-40% who don't think the current crop of politicians warrant a vote.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

Personally I cannot support Starmer because he lied his way to the Labour leadership and has backtracked on all of the 10 pledges he made less than 3 years ago. Its not about some idealistic need for a radical socialist, it's about credibility and the need to compromise.

Who will you vote instead?

 

[Sweet Square]

The problem with the left is that they’d rather see a Tory in Downing Street than a Labour leader who isn’t a radical socialist.

Yep this is the takeaway since 2015.

Well done.

 

[Champ]

Personally I cannot support Starmer because he lied his way to the Labour leadership and has backtracked on all of the 10 pledges he made less than 3 years ago. Its not about some idealistic need for a radical socialist, it's about credibility and the need to compromise.

But how will Labour get in power if they don't pander to the masses every now and then?

They will never get in over Tories unless they temper the parties socialist views somewhat in public.

I feel Sir Kier is trying to bring the party back from the socialist abyss somewhat by making the main sound bites more mainstream, which is required in order to win over the 'average' voter.

Sir Kiers pledges have not all been broken, most have been kept and some have merely been adapted to keep trend with what will win the votes.

I think this is fundamentally the reason why people still vote Tory, they tell the masses what they want to hear in order to get I to power, then don't really care too much about following through on those promises.
Some in Labour however seem reluctant to follow suit, which is commendable but won't swing the power back to the left.

 

[Smores]

In our system Labour needs Tory votes to win. Everything else follows from this.

Won't get very far with just ex-Tory voters though will it.

It needs a broad selection of voters and it's up to them to identify a set of policies that can do that. It needs to look credible and trust worthy. It's failing on those things in its ideological pursuit of Daily Mail appeal.

 

[Longshanks]

Or higher voter turnout, engaging with the 30%-40% who don't think the current crop of politicians warrant a vote.

I will be honest that is absolutely dreamland stuff.

 

[TheGame]

Ok mate. I’ve read the report and clearly so have you given your response.

Give me some examples from the report of the left of Labour Party weaponising antisemitism?

I’m not here to defend either side but the repot literally states both used anti semitism as a factional weapon so you can’t say one side was better than the other on the issue when both sides are responsible for mess they got themselves in.

 

[CassiusClaymore]

But how will Labour get in power if they don't pander to the masses every now and then?

They will never get in over Tories unless they temper the parties socialist views somewhat in public.

I feel Sir Kier is trying to bring the party back from the socialist abyss somewhat by making the main sound bites more mainstream, which is required in order to win over the 'average' voter.

Sir Kiers pledges have not all been broken, most have been kept and some have merely been adapted to keep trend with what will win the votes.

I think this is fundamentally the reason why people still vote Tory, they tell the masses what they want to hear in order to get I to power, then don't really care too much about following through on those promises.
Some in Labour however seem reluctant to follow suit, which is commendable but won't swing the power back to the left.

Really all he needs to do at the moment is sort out this outrageous profiteering from energy companies and the like. Pledges to renationalise water, gas and electric with promises to bring prices down will surely appeal to the left and all the Tory voters profiting from owning multiple properties. Seems an open goal to me. And no I don't really like the guy.

 

[sullydnl]

Pragmatic socialist policies presented in a more traditional way, as promised by Keir Starmer in his leadership bid, would be palatable to most workers. They are popular policies.

Aye.

It may be absolutely correct to argue that the UK as a whole (especially through the prism of its political system) is too right-wing for the sort of openly and avowedly left-wing Labour many here would like to thrive.

But it's also overestimating the idealogical consistency and purity of every Tory-amenable voter to think they wouldn't opt for quite a few socialist policies if they didn't think of them as "socialist policies". And that was the hope with Starmer but....

 

[ZupZup]

I’m not here to defend either side but the repot literally states both used anti semitism as a factional weapon so you can’t say one side was better than the other on the issue when both sides are responsible for mess they got themselves in.

I’ve read the report so I have an opinion on it. Why can’t I say one side behaved worse than the other, when that is the case by a considerable margin?

If as the report says, the left of the party were using antisemitism as a factional weapon, it should be very easy to give me even a single good example of this… but the only example they have is that the left of the party correctly accused the right of using antisemitism as a factional weapon… which the report concludes they were. But apparently correctly pointing it out hinders the party’s ability to deal with the problem.

 

[Champ]

Really all he needs to do at the moment is sort out this outrageous profiteering from energy companies and the like. Pledges to renationalise water, gas and electric with promises to bring prices down will surely appeal to the left and all the Tory voters profiting from owning multiple properties. Seems an open goal to me. And no I don't really like the guy.

Possibly.

Certainly that would appeal to many I'm sure.

But that's a very very difficult thing to do, plus would put a lot of pressure upon a Labour government to make it work.

All Tories are relying on right now are tax cuts, which is an easy, low pressure manifest to stick too, but one which appeals universally.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Who will you vote instead?

Probably Green.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

I will be honest that is absolutely dreamland stuff.

Yet voter turnout can fluctuate massively. It jumped from 59% in 2001 to 69% in 2017. In 1997 it was nearly 72%.