Kai Havertz

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If the front paying price is only 62-70m with the rest as add ons then magnificent business from them to be honest.

Lampard doesn't have any excuses next season. This is the most I have seen Chelsea active in the market probably since Mourinho's second season in his second stint there when they won the league after.
 
@Zehner
Looks like I was right after all about which club had the upper hand in negotiations :wenger:
Hopefully all add ons are activated as that will be very good news for both Chelsea and Leverkusen.
 
2ndTouch said:
Ornstein has been peddling those low estimate figures for weeks. It's just what he thought it would be, and now he just doubles down on his own BS
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Now Matt Law is reporting this numbers. Maybe we will see 2 different numbers depending on which journalist reports them.
 
roonster09 said:
Now Matt Law is reporting this numbers. Maybe we will see 2 different numbers depending on which journalist reports them.
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BBC also says it is £70m including add-ons.

I would believe what the BBC and The Telegraph say, rather than some random journalist's tweet.
 
Mount's Goatieson said:
@Zehner
Looks like I was right after all about which club had the upper hand in negotiations :wenger:
Hopefully all add ons are activated as that will be very good news for both Chelsea and Leverkusen.
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Let's see about that. These are the first sources claiming 70m initial fee, before that it's always been 80m + 20m in add ons. I don't believe our board will agree anything less than 100m in total. Maybe it's 70+30 but 70+10? No way.
 
el3mel said:
If the front paying price is only 62-70m with the rest as add ons then magnificent business from them to be honest.

Lampard doesn't have any excuses next season. This is the most I have seen Chelsea active in the market probably since Mourinho's second season in his second stint there when they won the league after.
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Why Lampard need any excuses any way. He did better than many thought last season. May be surprised more coming season. I am not at all bothered about pressure on him.

He knows the job and roman. He will be ruthless if he failed to perform and not achieve the targets. Looking forward to the start of the season.
 
TheLord said:
BBC also says it is £70m including add-ons.

I would believe what the BBC and The Telegraph say, rather than some random journalist's tweet.
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Matt Law and the telegraph are the one saying it is 62 mil plus addons (70 mil euro)
 
Mount's Goatieson said:
@Zehner
Looks like I was right after all about which club had the upper hand in negotiations :wenger:
Hopefully all add ons are activated as that will be very good news for both Chelsea and Leverkusen.
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Here we go. The kicker (most reliable sports paper in Germany) reports:

Bayer 04 erhält für Havertz, dessen Vertrag in Leverkusen noch bis 2022 datiert ist, ein Ablösepaket von 100 Millionen Euro. Dieses setzt sich aus einem Fixum sowie Boni zusammen. Wobei die vereinbarten Zusatzzahlungen nach menschlichem Ermessen mit an Sicherheit grenzender Wahrscheinlichkeit fällig werden und nicht an Titelgewinne der Blues gekoppelt sind.
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Translation: Bayer 04 receives for Havertz whose contract in Leverkusen lasts until 2022 a package of 100 million €. This consists of a fixed sum and add ons. As far as it is humanly possible to judge, those add ons will become due with probability bordering certainty and are not dependent on title wins by the blues.

This sounds much, much, much more valid to me. We initially asked for the same sum Atletico paid for Joao Felix and didn't intend to grant Corona discounts. In the end, we still did, but 80m in total would be downright ridiculous after those statements.
 
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Rajiztar said:
Why Lampard need any excuses any way. He did better than many thought last season. May be surprised more coming season. I am not at all bothered about pressure on him.

He knows the job and roman. He will be ruthless if he failed to perform and not achieve the targets. Looking forward to the start of the season.
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He did well last season getting top 4 even though with low points tally and with several inconsistencies problems, but next season 4th isn't going to be that acceptable considering this window.
 
Zehner said:
Here we go. The kicker (most reliable sports paper in Germany) reports:



Translation: Bayer 04 receives for Havertz who's contract in Leverkusen lasts until 2022 a package of 100 million €. This consists of a fixed sum and add ons. As far as it is humanly possible to judge, those add ons will become due with probability bordering certainty and are not dependent on title wins by the blues.

This sounds much, much, much more valid to me. We initially asked for the same sum Atletico paid for Joao Felix and didn't intend to grant Corona discounts. In the end, we still did, but 80m in total would be downright ridiculous after those statements.
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This is what I said, we will see 2 different numbers from different journalists. Chelsea will obviously brief low numbers whereas Leverkusen will report high numbers.
 
Marina is a bit of a specialist when it comes to negotiations isnt she, apart from the odd one or 2
 
Zehner said:
Here we go. The kicker (most reliable sports paper in Germany) reports:



Translation: Bayer 04 receives for Havertz whose contract in Leverkusen lasts until 2022 a package of 100 million €. This consists of a fixed sum and add ons. As far as it is humanly possible to judge, those add ons will become due with probability bordering certainty and are not dependent on title wins by the blues.

These figures make much more sense as they are consistent with what they have been quoting as the required price for months. You would think German outlets would be more accurate for this.

This sounds much, much, much more valid to me. We initially asked for the same sum Atletico paid for Joao Felix and didn't intend to grant Corona discounts. In the end, we still did, but 80m in total would be downright ridiculous after those statements.
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Chelsea fans will have the fee down to 50m by the end of the day :lol:
 
Bazi said:
Everyone in Germany and their grandmother, lots of people with decades of experience all tell me he's going to be next big thing in German football. A genuine world-class player and potential Ballon d'Or contender.


All I see is a very, very neat and talented player who could have a great career. I'm probably going to look foolish very soon considering how many people predict he will have a world-class career, but well everyone in Germany said the same things about Mario Götze so we'll see.
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I'm also not fully convinced by him yet.
He is (very) good in almost any aspect of the game (well, besides defensive work), but he isn't really exceptional in any aspect either.
His passing is quite good (but he is no de Bruyne or Özil), his vision and calmness is good (but he is no Kroos), his technical abilities are very good (but he is no Thiago), his dribbling skills are good for a midfielder and his finishing is good for a midfielder.
He may be a little like Müller in this regard, that they are good at everything, but not really exceptional in any aspect. And yet Müller is a world class player, so Havertz can also become one, even without "standout abilities".
I'm just a bit skeptical because of his body language and his fighting spirit. His defensive contribution is also very bad... bad pressing, few tackles, few interceptions, often not tracking back, just look at some statistics and compare him to other attacking player talents.


For me, Götze looked the much bigger talent at the same age.

And i guess that you @Bazi and me aren't the only ones that are a bit skeptical, at least for this price tag. Corona or not, isn't it kinda telling, that obviously no club besides Chelsea made an offer for him? And although they have a nice young squad and are an exciting project, they are not exactly in the Top 10 of european clubs.
 
charlenefan said:
Chelsea fans will have the fee down to 50m by the end of the day :lol:
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By claiming this is all because of Marina`s great negotiation skills as if this is a game of chess and Leverkusen were simply beaten:lol:
They`ve structured their transfers well but this smells a lot like a PR scheme briefing journalists about low sums.
 
BayernFan87 said:
I'm also not fully convinced by him yet.
He is (very) good in almost any aspect of the game (well, besides defensive work), but he isn't really exceptional in any aspect either.
His passing is quite good (but he is no de Bruyne or Özil), his vision and calmness is good (but he is no Kroos), his technical abilities are very good (but he is no Thiago), his dribbling skills are good for a midfielder and his finishing is good for a midfielder.
He may be a little like Müller in this regard, that they are good at everything, but not really exceptional in any aspect. And yet Müller is a world class player, so Havertz can also become one, even without "standout abilities".
I'm just a bit skeptical because of his body language and his fighting spirit. His defensive contribution is also very bad... bad pressing, few tackles, few interceptions, often not tracking back, just look at some statistics and compare him to other attacking player talents.


For me, Götze looked the much bigger talent at the same age.

And i guess that you @Bazi and me aren't the only ones that are a bit skeptical, at least for this price tag. Corona or not, isn't it kinda telling, that obviously no club besides Chelsea made an offer for him? And although they have a nice young squad and are an exciting project, they are not exactly in the Top 10 of european clubs.
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No other club bid cause they couldnt afford him. You cant just say covid aside when it affects teams finances, just like if covid didnt happen werner probably signs for the scouse.
 
I take it "Chelsea fans" in this context is code speak for "journalists covering the Havertz transfer"
 
Matt Law is a shocking journalist, take anything from him with a massive pinch of salt.
 
Kasper said:
....but this smells a lot like a PR scheme briefing journalists about low sums.
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How exactly would it improve their PR scheme if they deliberately briefed lower fees than what was actually paid for the German, other than falsely promoting Marina's shrewd negotiating skills?

They can't fool the FFP system with such briefings nor can they do anything with the club's actual annual balance sheet.

Let us assume they bought Havertz for 90 million. Wouldn't it be a PR victory if the media reported it as "Chelsea's 100 million man" rather than "Chelsea's 70 million deal?" If anything, if a club intentionally undervalues the transfer sum, the club will struggle to recoup anything in the transfer market if the player fails and needs to be loaned out or sold.
 
Pow said:
No other club bid cause they couldnt afford him. You cant just say covid aside when it affects teams finances, just like if covid didnt happen werner probably signs for the scouse.
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We have teams like PSG, City, Real, Barca, that could spend ~200 million in one summer in past years and now due to Corona none of those is able to afford ~100? I don't think so, sorry.
There also seems to be no big team trying to pull a "Bayern<->Lewandowski" by convincing him to stay another year to join them next summer.
I don't want to talk bad about Havertz or your team, i just don't rate Havertz as big as the price tag seems to suggest. He is not the biggest talent in the Bundesliga right now, that is Sancho. And Sancho is for most fans i know a step below "the next big Bundesliga star" in recent years, like Dembele or Götze.

But as i said, i don't want to talk bad. He will definitely strenghten your team and for a neutral like me that likes to watch the PL, I'm really looking forward to see that Werner-Pulisic-Havertz-Ziyech attack, this could very well be very, very exciting.
I also think the playing style in the PL will be good for Havertz to work on his weaknesses. And as a german it also good, if him and Werner get used to each other.
In 2 years the front-6 of the german team will probably look like this:
--------------Werner-----------
Gnabry--Havertz--Sané
---Goretzka--Kimmich---

Bayern + Chelsea :cool:
 
BayernFan87 said:
I'm also not fully convinced by him yet.
He is (very) good in almost any aspect of the game (well, besides defensive work), but he isn't really exceptional in any aspect either.
His passing is quite good (but he is no de Bruyne or Özil), his vision and calmness is good (but he is no Kroos), his technical abilities are very good (but he is no Thiago), his dribbling skills are good for a midfielder and his finishing is good for a midfielder.
He may be a little like Müller in this regard, that they are good at everything, but not really exceptional in any aspect. And yet Müller is a world class player, so Havertz can also become one, even without "standout abilities".
I'm just a bit skeptical because of his body language and his fighting spirit. His defensive contribution is also very bad... bad pressing, few tackles, few interceptions, often not tracking back, just look at some statistics and compare him to other attacking player talents.


For me, Götze looked the much bigger talent at the same age.

And i guess that you @Bazi and me aren't the only ones that are a bit skeptical, at least for this price tag. Corona or not, isn't it kinda telling, that obviously no club besides Chelsea made an offer for him? And although they have a nice young squad and are an exciting project, they are not exactly in the Top 10 of european clubs.
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I'm sorry but Havertz is in another dimension in all aspects of technique compared to Müller. He has no real standout ability, that much is true, but he's at least elite in all these categories. That's the difference to Müller who miraculously manages to be world class although he's only an average footballer from a technical perspective.

Oh and by the way, Havertz' finishing isn't "good" for a midfielder, it is downright exceptional. He might as well have been the Bundesliga's best finisher, Lewandowski aside. And that's only because Lewandowski had a very good season finishing wise, he usually wasn't as clinical as Havertz. Thinking of it, finishing might in fact be an outstanding ability of him.
 
BayernFan87 said:
I'm also not fully convinced by him yet.
He is (very) good in almost any aspect of the game (well, besides defensive work), but he isn't really exceptional in any aspect either.
His passing is quite good (but he is no de Bruyne or Özil), his vision and calmness is good (but he is no Kroos), his technical abilities are very good (but he is no Thiago), his dribbling skills are good for a midfielder and his finishing is good for a midfielder.
He may be a little like Müller in this regard, that they are good at everything, but not really exceptional in any aspect. And yet Müller is a world class player, so Havertz can also become one, even without "standout abilities".
I'm just a bit skeptical because of his body language and his fighting spirit. His defensive contribution is also very bad... bad pressing, few tackles, few interceptions, often not tracking back, just look at some statistics and compare him to other attacking player talents.


For me, Götze looked the much bigger talent at the same age.

And i guess that you @Bazi and me aren't the only ones that are a bit skeptical, at least for this price tag. Corona or not, isn't it kinda telling, that obviously no club besides Chelsea made an offer for him? And although they have a nice young squad and are an exciting project, they are not exactly in the Top 10 of european clubs.
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So according to you, we are getting a player with very good passing, very good vision and calmness, very good technique, very good shooting for a midfielder all in one? Sounds like a freaking incredible player to me.

Also no team were in for him? Weren't Bayern begging for him to stay one more season so they can lowball Leverkusen for him next season? Weren't Madrid supposedly in for him but couldn't afford him (they couldn't even afford Donny Van de Beek).

Chelsea aren't top 10 in Europe? Care to explain by which metrics you came to that conclusion? Who makes your top 10 then?

Benefit of a doubt this isn't from some deep bitter place, you'd think that'll be below fans of a team as successful as Bayern Munich.
 
BayernFan87 said:
We have teams like PSG, City, Real, Barca, that could spend ~200 million in one summer in past years and now due to Corona none of those is able to afford ~100? I don't think so, sorry.
There also seems to be no big team trying to pull a "Bayern<->Lewandowski" by convincing him to stay another year to join them next summer.
I don't want to talk bad about Havertz or your team, i just don't rate Havertz as big as the price tag seems to suggest. He is not the biggest talent in the Bundesliga right now, that is Sancho. And Sancho is for most fans i know a step below "the next big Bundesliga star" in recent years, like Dembele or Götze.

But as i said, i don't want to talk bad. He will definitely strenghten your team and for a neutral like me that likes to watch the PL, I'm really looking forward to see that Werner-Pulisic-Havertz-Ziyech attack, this could very well be very, very exciting.
I also think the playing style in the PL will be good for Havertz to work on his weaknesses. And as a german it also good, if him and Werner get used to each other.
In 2 years the front-6 of the german team will probably look like this:
--------------Werner-----------
Gnabry--Havertz--Sané
---Goretzka--Kimmich---

Bayern + Chelsea :cool:
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He had already stated iirc he deffo wanted to leave, citys team is already stacked with players in his position and have been strengthening the defence instead, i doubt either of the spanish sides have the money for him, he was linked to madrid prior to the pandemic.
Tbf at this moment i couldnt care less about it im gonna be over the moon when hes announced and am buzzing for the new season.

On a german chelsea front wtf has happened to rudiger, hes fell off a cliff this past year.
 
Zehner said:
I'm sorry but Havertz is in another dimension in all aspects of technique compared to Müller. He has no real standout ability, that much is true, but he's at least elite in all these categories. That's the difference to Müller who miraculously manages to be world class although he's only an average footballer from a technical perspective.

Oh and by the way, Havertz' finishing isn't "good" for a midfielder, it is downright exceptional. He might as well have been the Bundesliga's best finisher, Lewandowski aside. And that's only because Lewandowski had a very good season finishing wise, he usually wasn't as clinical as Havertz. Thinking of it, finishing might in fact be an outstanding ability of him.
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You're right, i can agree with this.
 
Mount's Goatieson said:
So according to you, we are getting a player with very good passing, very good vision and calmness, very good technique, very good shooting for a midfielder all in one? Sounds like a freaking incredible player to me.

Also no team were in for him? Weren't Bayern begging for him to stay one more season so they can lowball Leverkusen for him next season? Weren't Madrid supposedly in for him but couldn't afford him (they couldn't even afford Donny Van de Beek).

Chelsea aren't top 10 in Europe? Care to explain by which metrics you came to that conclusion? Who makes your top 10 then?

Benefit of a doubt this isn't from some deep bitter place, you'd think that'll be below fans of a team as successful as Bayern Munich.
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He is a very good player, I never said otherwise. But for a "100 millions" talent he falls bit flat compared to other Bundesliga talents in the last years like Sancho or Dembele. I also rated de Bruyne and Sané higher when they left the league, but thats surely debatable.

According to reports our bosses suggested Havertz to Flick, but he declined him because of Müller. And i can only agree with that. I honestly thought for the past 2, 3 years that Müller is finished on top level, but under Flick he is back to his best. Müller is never injured, so the space behind Lewy is basically locked. For the wings Havertz is too slow for the way we play, so until Müller retires, Havertz probably wouldn't be a starter for us.

Judging by the UEFA 5-years-coefficient you are currently rank 16 in europe: https://de.uefa.com/memberassociations/uefarankings/club/#/yr/2020
I can't think of a more objective and fair measurement regarding this.

And no, I'm definitely not bitter, because Havertz would have been our record signing and probably wouldn't have been a starter for us in important games for at least the next 2 or 3 years.
We just had an unnecessary record signing last summer, we don't need another one ;)
 
BayernFan87 said:
For me, Götze looked the much bigger talent at the same age.
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You're immediately being called a hater once you say anything bad about Götze, but sometimes you have to remind people that he never had more than 22 goals and assists combined in a single season, yet the most extreme people (in this thread) tell the tale of a young football player on par talent wise with Ronaldo Nazario who had his career similarly tragically cut short. Tragically cut short it was, but his talent level was never anywhere close to those regions.

Actually I don't know whom I would prefer between 2013 Mario Götze and 2020 Kai Havertz. Without the knowledge of his illness you would probably have to say Götze, but it's not as big of a gap without the enthusiasm that surrounded Klopp's Dortmund team at the time.
 
BayernFan87 said:
He is a very good player, I never said otherwise. But for a "100 millions" talent he falls bit flat compared to other Bundesliga talents in the last years like Sancho or Dembele. I also rated de Bruyne and Sané higher when they left the league, but thats surely debatable.

According to reports our bosses suggested Havertz to Flick, but he declined him because of Müller. And i can only agree with that. I honestly thought for the past 2, 3 years that Müller is finished on top level, but under Flick he is back to his best. Müller is never injured, so the space behind Lewy is basically locked. For the wings Havertz is too slow for the way we play, so until Müller retires, Havertz probably wouldn't be a starter for us.

Judging by the UEFA 5-years-coefficient you are currently rank 16 in europe: https://de.uefa.com/memberassociations/uefarankings/club/#/yr/2020
I can't think of a more objective and fair measurement regarding this.

And no, I'm definitely not bitter, because Havertz would have been our record signing and probably wouldn't have been a starter for us in important games for at least the next 2 or 3 years.
We just had an unnecessary record signing last summer, we don't need another one ;)
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Muller is 30 and is already had his ups and downs its no guarantee he will sustain his form, its not a reason to discard a 21 year old who can replace him.
 
Bazi said:
You're immediately being called a hater once you say anything bad about Götze, but sometimes you have to remind people that he never had more than 22 goals and assists combined in a single season, yet the most extreme people (in this thread) tell the tale of a young football player on par talent wise with Ronaldo Nazario who had his career similarly tragically cut short. Tragically cut short it was, but his talent level was never anywhere close to those regions.

Actually I don't know whom I would prefer between 2013 Mario Götze and 2020 Kai Havertz. Without the knowledge of his illness you would probably have to say Götze, but it's not as big of a gap without the enthusiasm that surrounded Klopp's Dortmund team at the time.
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Hm, i feel that just looking at scorer points doesn't do young Götze justice. His dribbling skills and link-up play were exceptional and if i remember correctly he often provided the second to last pass to the flanks to Schmelzer/Pisczek.
Let's also not forget that Götze didn't take any penalties or free kicks to boost his stats.

For me Götze was the biggest talent in german football since Deisler. Really, really sad how both careers developed.
 
Pow said:
Muller is 30 and is already had his ups and downs its no guarantee he will sustain his form, its not a reason to discard a 21 year old who can replace him.
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Sure, but the front-4 for Bayern is basically locked for the next 2 or 3 years. What should we have told Havertz? "You can play on your favorite position if Müller is rested and you can become his successor in 3 years"?
At Leverkusen Havertz was used in different positions, but for me he is clearly a 10. Can he play on the wings? Yes, but for the top level is too slow. Can he play as a false-9? Yes, but he lacks assertiveness, can he play as a CM? Quite possibly, but you lose his goal threat. His best position is the 10 and at Bayern he would've been the next one "Müller'ed" after James and Coutinho.

Can't a Bayern fan say something bad about Havertz (and it's not even bad what i'm saying) without being called bitter and jealous? :lol:
 
BayernFan87 said:
Sure, but the front-4 for Bayern is basically locked for the next 2 or 3 years. What should we have told Havertz? "You can play on your favorite position if Müller is rested and you can become his successor in 3 years"?
At Leverkusen Havertz was used in different positions, but for me he is clearly a 10. Can he play on the wings? Yes, but for the top level is too slow. Can he play as a false-9? Yes, but he lacks assertiveness, can he play as a CM? Quite possibly, but you lose his goal threat. His best position is the 10 and at Bayern he would've been the next one "Müller'ed" after James and Coutinho.

Can't a Bayern fan say something bad about Havertz (and it's not even bad what i'm saying) without being called bitter and jealous? :lol:
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? Ive not said you were jealous. Besides its like saying why buy sane when you have gnabry and koman and are gonna keep perisic.
 
BayernFan87 said:
He is a very good player, I never said otherwise. But for a "100 millions" talent he falls bit flat compared to other Bundesliga talents in the last years like Sancho or Dembele. I also rated de Bruyne and Sané higher when they left the league, but thats surely debatable.

According to reports our bosses suggested Havertz to Flick, but he declined him because of Müller. And i can only agree with that. I honestly thought for the past 2, 3 years that Müller is finished on top level, but under Flick he is back to his best. Müller is never injured, so the space behind Lewy is basically locked. For the wings Havertz is too slow for the way we play, so until Müller retires, Havertz probably wouldn't be a starter for us.

Judging by the UEFA 5-years-coefficient you are currently rank 16 in europe: https://de.uefa.com/memberassociations/uefarankings/club/#/yr/2020
I can't think of a more objective and fair measurement regarding this.

And no, I'm definitely not bitter, because Havertz would have been our record signing and probably wouldn't have been a starter for us in important games for at least the next 2 or 3 years.
We just had an unnecessary record signing last summer, we don't need another one ;)
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You rated Dembele higher? Jesus. Every touch of that guy is like a coin flip. Could be brillant, could be the stuff for football fail compilations. And Sané wasn't even an undisputed starter at Schalke.

It's also quite rich to not see Chelsea in the top 10. The only clubs clearly better than them are Barca, Madrid, Bayern, City, Liverpool, PSG and maybe Juventus. They are definitely ahead of Atletico, Arsenal, Tottenham, Dortmund, Napoli and Inter. Strange perspective.
 
Pow said:
? Ive not said you were jealous. Besides its like saying why buy sane when you have gnabry and koman and are gonna keep perisic.
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Sorry my mistake, that wasn't you.

Coman is good, but his end product is usually not good enough to be a starter for a top team and unfortunately he is often injured.
Gnabry is also often injured, so a 3rd top winger is definitely needed. Perisic is okay, his scorer statistics are in fact on the same level as Gnabrys (both have a scorer point about every ~95 minutes played, Coman is somewhere above 160 minutes per scorer) but he is not good enough i think. But i also would want to keep him as the 4th winger.
 
BayernFan87 said:
Sorry my mistake, that wasn't you.

Coman is good, but his end product is usually not good enough to be a starter for a top team and unfortunately he is often injured.
Gnabry is also often injured, so a 3rd top winger is definitely needed. Perisic is okay, his scorer statistics are in fact on the same level as Gnabrys (both have a scorer point about every ~95 minutes played, Coman is somewhere above 160 minutes per scorer) but he is not good enough i think. But i also would want to keep him as the 4th winger.
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Sanes a damn good player tbf great buy for bayern.
 


Chelsea do have some good PR. Suddenly add-ons are not part of the fee that gets published. But in case of Sancho you should expect his wages and miscellaneous cost will also be added to add-ons and upfront fee
 
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