Kai Havertz

[amolbhatia50k]

Well according to a high percentage of your fellow fans AWB should be getting replaced by a youth product (Laird) who's not played a single minute in domestic competitions....

I take it for the sake of consistency you're taking them to task over it?

For me, AWB is definitely better than Reese James. I'd take Martial, Rashford and Pulisic as my combined front three. Pogba and Fernandes walk into the combined team. As do Maguire, Shaw and DDG.

I prefer most of our starting 11 over Chelsea's tbh. As for Chelsea's new boys let's see how good they are. Maybe one of them would make it but not sure over who. Depends on their quality. If we sign Sancho he'd be the best attacker on either team.

 

[SirAnderson]

Sunday last post? What is going on with this move then? @duffer You guys hired Woody to help with the deal or somefing.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Sunday last post? What is going on with this move then? @duffer You guys hired Woody to help with the deal or somefing.

Delay is due to Leverkusen's ongoing participation in the EL. Reports from Germany are that we're still the only team in for him, a deal with Leverkusen is close (barring them unexpectedly winning the EL), terms with Havertz are agreed, and that he's keen on the switch.

 

[SirAnderson]

Delay is due to Leverkusen's ongoing participation in the EL. Reports from Germany are that we're still the only team in for him, a deal with Leverkusen is close (barring them unexpectedly winning the EL), terms with Havertz are agreed, and that he's keen on the switch.

Sup duffer.

Cool, thanks man, was wondering why it was so quiet.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Sup duffer.

Cool, thanks man, was wondering why it was so quiet.

No worries!

 

[Zehner]

For me, AWB is definitely better than Reese James. I'd take Martial, Rashford and Pulisic as my combined front three. Pogba and Fernandes walk into the combined team. As do Maguire, Shaw and DDG.

I prefer most of our starting 11 over Chelsea's tbh. As for Chelsea's new boys let's see how good they are. Maybe one of them would make it but not sure over who. Depends on their quality. If we sign Sancho he'd be the best attacker on either team.

How so? Fernandes has had a brillant start, obviously, but that's quite a small sample set. On the contrary, I'd argue Havertz' best season is up there with Pogba's best seasons. Just a quick research at sofascore:

Havertz 19/20:
12 goals (205 minutes per goal)
6 assists
15 big chances created
2.0 important passes per game
85% passing accuracy
81% passing accuracy in opponent's half
15.5 possession losses
1.9 successful dribblings per game (48% success rate)

Pogba 18/19:
13 goals (231 minutes per goal)
9 assists
7 big chances created
1.6 important passes per game
83% passing accuracy
78% passing accuracy in opponent half
17.2 possession losses
1.7 successful dribblings per game (65% success rate)


That generally supports my impression: Pogba plays riskier and more dangerous passes but Havertz is better at ball retention while maintaining a similar overall output. It also seems as if Pogba's team mates were more clinical at finishing (as suggested by Havertz' creating 15 big chances but only having 6 assists to Pogba's 9 and 7) which is quite logical given that Havertz played with weaker players at our club.

 

[roonster09]

We should compare Lukaku and Hazard to see who has better numbers, comparing SS/AM numbers with CM

Bruno's sample size is small and should be ignored as it's Portuguese league but somehow Havertz and others' bundesliga numbers should be considered.

 

[ghagua]

You can always sign defenders. But in Chelsea's position you have to capitalize when the opportunity to land a talent like Havertz is on the table.

A top squad isn't built in one window. Right now that's imcredibly good transfer management by Chelsea.

Absolutely right. You take the opportunity to sign a top talent when they become available. You may not get another chance to do so. You can sign players for other positions when the opportunity rises.

 

[Zehner]

We should compare Lukaku and Hazard to see who has better numbers, comparing SS/AM numbers with CM

Bruno's sample size is small and should be ignored as it's Portuguese league but somehow Havertz and others' bundesliga numbers should be considered.

Jesus, do you receive notifications the moment I type "Pogba"?

Bruno has played less minutes in the EPL than Pogba this season. I chose Pogba 18/19 for the same reason I left out Bruno 19/20.

We could maybe compare Bruno and Havertz 20 but I won't find stats for that. I'm pretty sure than Havertz' statistics in that time frame can compare to Bruno's, though.

Oh and by the way, Havertz is no SS. He's played as a CM for a good proportion of the last two seasons. But I don't expect you to know that given that your horizon regarding football is limited to United completely.

 

[roonster09]

Jesus, do you receive notifications the moment I type "Pogba"?

Bruno has played less minutes in the EPL than Pogba this season. I chose Pogba 18/19 for the same reason I left out Bruno 19/20.

We could maybe compare Bruno and Havertz 20 but I won't find stats for that. I'm pretty sure than Havertz' statistics in that time frame can compare to Bruno's, though.

Oh and by the way, Havertz is no SS. He's played as a CM for a good proportion of the last two seasons. But I don't expect you to know that given that your horizon regarding football is limited to United completely.

No, I get notification for shit posts, without surprise it's mostly your posts. Ironic you talk about all the horizon when you admitted that you barely watch players but continue to shit post.

Now Bruno at 20 vs Havertz at 20

Edit: Lukaku also played as winger well I dont expect you to know it as you know feck all.

Also amazing how selective stats are, only select stats where Havertz was good at and completely ignore the other stats, wow what a surprise from resident "Ronaldo vs Messi" thread poster.

 

[Zehner]

No, I get notification for shit posts, without surprise it's mostly your posts. Ironic you talk about all the horizon when you admitted that you barely watch players but continue to shit post.

Now Bruno at 20 vs Havertz at 20

Edit: Lukaku also played as winger well I dont expect you to know it as you know feck all.

Also amazing how selective stats are, only select stats where Havertz was good at and completely ignore the other stats, wow what a surprise from resident "Ronaldo vs Messi" thread poster.

Whatever man. Go back to your echo chamber. The world is nasty and mean outside of it. There are people out there with the audacity to claim that United isn't the center of the universe and the best thing since sliced bread, imagine that.

 

[roonster09]

Whatever man. Go back to your echo chamber. The world is nasty and mean outside of it. There are people out there with the audacity to claim that United isn't the center of the universe and the best thing since sliced bread, imagine that.

Yeah and world is nasty enough to call out your bs, but not that you learn anything from it, it's just that you come up with more bs.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Looking forward to seeing how the generational talent destroys Rangers tonight.

I'm expecting at least 2 goals and an assist the way he's been talked up in this thread.

 

[roonster09]

Looking forward to seeing how the generational talent destroys Rangers tonight.

I'm expecting at least 2 goals and an assist the way he's been talked up in this thread.

If he scores all fine, if he doesn't maybe we will see more nonsense about how he was playing as CM

 

[E-mal]

Whatever man. Go back to your echo chamber. The world is nasty and mean outside of it. There are people out there with the audacity to claim that United isn't the center of the universe and the best thing since sliced bread, imagine that.

Really? Are you sure? We are united we do what we want! This is news to me I must say.

 

[Zehner]

Yeah and world is nasty enough to call out your bs, but not that you learn anything from it, it's just that you come up with more bs.

In all honesty, I don't think that you're able to tell apart what's bullshit and what's not anymore. Not that you don't possess the general intellectual capacities, you're simply over identifying with your club. Cognitive dissonance is a nice thing, isn't it?

By the way, I basically wrote the post you quoted by copying and pasting the stat page from sofascore.com (you can see the pattern if you visit the website). Since I was lazy I only included stats that I find important. When I did that, I was dead sure that you would show up and criticize me for my picks (still was surprised how quick that happened, though). I thought about including some stats I don't find important (long balls, etc) or maybe even calculate some additional ratios (minutes per assist etc) which would put Pogba in a better light but then thought feck it, I'm not investing more time just because of some obsessed Pogba fan who would probably just have constructed some superficial excuses anyway.

 

[roonster09]

In all honesty, I don't think that you're able to tell apart what's bullshit and what's not anymore. Not that you don't possess the general intellectual capacities, you're simply over identifying with your club. Cognitive dissonance is a nice thing, isn't it?

By the way, I basically wrote the post you quoted by copying and pasting stats from sofascore.com (you can see the pattern if you visit the website). When I did that, I was dead sure that you would show up and criticize me (still was surprised how quick that happened, though). I thought about including some stats I don't find important (long balls, etc) or maybe even calculate some additional ratios (minutes per assist etc) which would put Pogba in a better light but then thought feck it, I'm not investing more time just because of some obsessed Pogba fan who would probably just constructed some superficial excuses anyway.

Your posts are so ironic and it's not even surprising. It's not even surprising selective stats, moving goal posts from you.

 

[E-mal]

@Zehner stop comparing Pogba with players in Farmer's league. 78% of your bundesliga players agree with me before you start another episode of comparisms.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

How so? Fernandes has had a brillant start, obviously, but that's quite a small sample set. On the contrary, I'd argue Havertz' best season is up there with Pogba's best seasons. Just a quick research at sofascore:

Havertz 19/20:
12 goals (205 minutes per goal)
6 assists
15 big chances created
2.0 important passes per game
85% passing accuracy
81% passing accuracy in opponent's half
15.5 possession losses
1.9 successful dribblings per game (48% success rate)

Pogba 18/19:
13 goals (231 minutes per goal)
9 assists
7 big chances created
1.6 important passes per game
83% passing accuracy
78% passing accuracy in opponent half
17.2 possession losses
1.7 successful dribblings per game (65% success rate)


That generally supports my impression: Pogba plays riskier and more dangerous passes but Havertz is better at ball retention while maintaining a similar overall output. It also seems as if Pogba's team mates were more clinical at finishing (as suggested by Havertz' creating 15 big chances but only having 6 assists to Pogba's 9 and 7) which is quite logical given that Havertz played with weaker players at our club.

I didn't include Chelsea's new boys in that.

At this point it doesn't make any sense to compare young guns like Havertz with a Serie A winning World Cup winning established top player like Pogba who has not only been at huge clubs for years now but also been crucial in them all. Further his time at united may have seen some good finishers but also involved a dangerous mix of a disjoint team but a huge football club. Then there's the fact that he often genuinely plays in a midfield 2. All in all not very comparable for me. Maybe Havertz will end up a better player but he has it all to prove right now. We saw the hype over Jao Felix and many other talents.

 

[roonster09]

@Zehner stop comparing Pogba with players in Farmer's league. 78% of your bundesliga players agree with me before you start another episode of comparisms.

Bruno stats don't matter as it's Portuguese league but it's ok to compare stats of SS/AM/attacking player playing in Bundesliga with CM playing in PL, whats even worse is only attacking stats are compared.

It's not surprising though, surprising would be seeing some sort of balanced post.

 

[Zehner]

Your posts are so ironic and it's not even surprising. It's not even surprising selective stats, moving goal posts from you.

Everything that's not painfully tinted in favour of United or it's players equals 'moving goal posts' for you. Especially if the one you're arguing with is not a United fan. Has to be incredibly boring but to each their own I guess.

I didn't include Chelsea's new boys in that.

At this point it doesn't make any sense to compare young guns like Havertz with a Serie A winning World Cup winning established top player like Pogba who has not only been at huge clubs for years now but also been crucial in them all. Further his time at united may have seen some good finishers but also involved a dangerous mix of a disjoint team but a huge football club. Then there's the fact that he often genuinely plays in a midfield 2. All in all not very comparable for me. Maybe Havertz will end up a better player but he has it all to prove right now. We saw the hype over Jao Felix and many other talents.

Fair enough. The systems they excelled in are very different, too. Guess next season we'll know more.

 

[roonster09]

Everything that's not painfully tinted in favour of United or it's players equals 'moving goal posts' for you. Especially if the one you're arguing with is not a United fan. Has to be incredibly boring but to each their own I guess.

One more clueless post as usual.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

How so? Fernandes has had a brillant start, obviously, but that's quite a small sample set. On the contrary, I'd argue Havertz' best season is up there with Pogba's best seasons. Just a quick research at sofascore:

Havertz 19/20:
12 goals (205 minutes per goal)
6 assists
15 big chances created
2.0 important passes per game
85% passing accuracy
81% passing accuracy in opponent's half
15.5 possession losses
1.9 successful dribblings per game (48% success rate)

Pogba 18/19:
13 goals (231 minutes per goal)
9 assists
7 big chances created
1.6 important passes per game
83% passing accuracy
78% passing accuracy in opponent half
17.2 possession losses
1.7 successful dribblings per game (65% success rate)


That generally supports my impression: Pogba plays riskier and more dangerous passes but Havertz is better at ball retention while maintaining a similar overall output. It also seems as if Pogba's team mates were more clinical at finishing (as suggested by Havertz' creating 15 big chances but only having 6 assists to Pogba's 9 and 7) which is quite logical given that Havertz played with weaker players at our club.

Bridge too far this, mate - given Havertz's flexibility, comparisons to other players are difficult since he's played 4 different positions this year & mostly well in advance of Pogba's position.

Obviously I'm totally enamoured with Havertz and am desperately hoping we sign him, but this comparison is apples and oranges.

 

[Mr.Ridiculous__]

Whatever man. Go back to your echo chamber. The world is nasty and mean outside of it. There are people out there with the audacity to claim that United isn't the center of the universe and the best thing since sliced bread, imagine that.

Why the feck are you on a Utd forum mate?

 

[iammemphis]

How so? Fernandes has had a brillant start, obviously, but that's quite a small sample set. On the contrary, I'd argue Havertz' best season is up there with Pogba's best seasons. Just a quick research at sofascore:

Havertz 19/20:
12 goals (205 minutes per goal)
6 assists
15 big chances created
2.0 important passes per game
85% passing accuracy
81% passing accuracy in opponent's half
15.5 possession losses
1.9 successful dribblings per game (48% success rate)

Pogba 18/19:
13 goals (231 minutes per goal)
9 assists
7 big chances created
1.6 important passes per game
83% passing accuracy
78% passing accuracy in opponent half
17.2 possession losses
1.7 successful dribblings per game (65% success rate)


That generally supports my impression: Pogba plays riskier and more dangerous passes but Havertz is better at ball retention while maintaining a similar overall output. It also seems as if Pogba's team mates were more clinical at finishing (as suggested by Havertz' creating 15 big chances but only having 6 assists to Pogba's 9 and 7) which is quite logical given that Havertz played with weaker players at our club.

You're comparing the Bundes with the Premier League mate. Now that's Apple and Oranges, aswell as a positional element in Pogba playing deeper. Infact it shows Pogba upper tier class above Havertz that he still gets these numbers playing deep AND in the prem. Im not saying Havertz won't get these numbers in the Prem if he moves, but he won't if he soley plays the Pogba role.

 

[TheReligion]

Why has everything got to be trying to downplay United? Don't get it.

 

[Zehner]

Bridge too far this, mate - given Havertz's flexibility, comparisons to other players are difficult since he's played 4 different positions this year & mostly well in advance of Pogba's position.

Obviously I'm totally enamoured with Havertz and am desperately hoping we sign him, but this comparison is apples and oranges.

Havertz played primarily as an 8 in the season he scored 17 goals. Our midfield of choice was

Brandt - Havertz
Aranguiz

We're a side playing possession football, we don't really play with a 10 or second striker. He's scored a nice amount of goals as a false 9 recently, I think this has affected the perception of his position.

Why the feck are you on a Utd forum mate?

I like a United, if you get Sancho and Greenwood develops as expected you'll be one of my favourite teams in the world in the future. And also this is the best football forum in the world. I just don't like people who are not able to think and argue at least somewhat objectively when it comes to their club. But every club has these guys, especially large ones.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Why has everything got to be trying to downplay United? Don't get it.

If I might give an earnest answer, at times I think it can be a bit of a form of condescension where oppos want to put things in relation to United because there's an assumption that you lot can't comprehend anything outside of Old Trafford - obviously that's not the case and it probably stems from a bit of insecurity / being outnumbered online (although it's silly to expect otherwise given this is a United forum).

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Havertz played primarily as an 8 in the season he scored 17 goals. Our midfield of choice was

Brandt - Havertz
Aranguiz

We're a side playing possession football, we don't really play with a 10 or second striker. He's scored a nice amount of goals as a false 9 recently, I think this has affected the perception of his position.

I like a United, if you get Sancho and Greenwood develops as expected you'll be one of my favourite teams in the world in the future. And also this is the best football forum in the world. I just don't like people who are not able to think and argue at least somewhat objectively when it comes to their club. But every club has these guys, especially large ones.

Well first of all, that wasn't 19/20. Second, Pogba hasn't really had the opportunity to play as an 8 since his time at Juve and he certainly didn't in 18/19.

 

[roonster09]

If I might give an earnest answer, at times I think it can be a bit of a form of condescension where oppos want to put things in relation to United because there's an assumption that you lot can't comprehend anything outside of Old Trafford - obviously that's not the case and it probably stems from a bit of insecurity / being outnumbered online (although it's silly to expect otherwise given this is a United forum).

It might be also because some clueless people who think they know it all because they read some stats, they even said they didn't watch player but then try to come up with some expert analysis. Also just because they post on ManUtd forum they think they watch too much football

Best part is they think their posts are objective when it's full of holes and inconsistent logic

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

It might be also because some clueless people who think they know it all because they read some stats, they even said they didn't watch player but then try to come up with some expert analysis. Also just because they post on ManUtd forum they think they watch too much football

Best part is they think their posts are objective when it's full of holes and inconsistent logic

I feel personally attacked by this response

 

[roonster09]

I feel personally attacked by this response

Na, not for you. You are one of most balanced posters here. At least in the interactions I had with you and the posts I read

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Na, not for you. You are one of most balanced posters here. At least in the interactions I had with you and the posts I read

Ta, much appreciated mate!

 

[Zehner]

If I might give an earnest answer, at times I think it can be a bit of a form of condescension where oppos want to put things in relation to United because there's an assumption that you lot can't comprehend anything outside of Old Trafford - obviously that's not the case and it probably stems from a bit of insecurity / being outnumbered online (although it's silly to expect otherwise given this is a United forum).

Let's quickly remember the point I was arguing: That Pogba and Bruno would not 'walk' into a team with Havertz in. I wasn't even saying he is better than them. I had similar discussions on non-United players that went calm and reflected, it only ever derails when a United player is involved. I don't want to say that certain people attack you if you dare criticizing a United player because that's not true, 'criticize' is already way too harsh for what's enough to get attacked in sometimes.

Well first of all, that wasn't 19/20. Second, Pogba hasn't really had the opportunity to play as an 8 since his time at Juve and he certainly didn't in 18/19.

I've watched ~70-80% percent of Havertz' games. He's played preferably as an 8 throughout his whole career. His more offensive role this season primarily comes from a shortage of players with end product and a simultaneous abundance of midfielders. Not saying that you're wrong with your apples/oranges argument - I understand when you see it that way - but Havertz usually plays way deeper than people in here think.

 

[WeePat]

No goals, no assists. Crap player. BTEC Darren Ambrose. Pull out of this deal before it's too late.

 

[Joseunited]

No goals, no assists. Crap player. BTEC Darren Ambrose. Pull out of this deal before it's too late.

I agree. Go for Jesse Lingard instead, 2 goals in 2 games. Boys a game changer.

 

[Chief123]

*

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Let's quickly remember the point I was arguing: That Pogba and Bruno would not 'walk' into a team with Havertz in. I wasn't even saying he is better than them. I had similar discussions on non-United players that went calm and reflected, it only ever derails when a United player is involved. I don't want to say that certain people attack you if you dare criticizing a United player because that's not true, 'criticize' is already way too harsh for what's enough to get attacked in sometimes.

I think that the extent to which you've been branded as unreasonable is unfair and apologies if I contributed to that. That said, given the potential challenges in transitioning to a new league versus the fact that Pogba and Bruno are settled means that I'd take either over Havertz in a one-off in the PL. If the question is who is likely to provide the most value over the next 5 years, then I'd take Havertz by a nose over Bruno. If it's next 10, then Havertz wins by a mile.

I've watched ~70-80% percent of Havertz' games. He's played preferably as an 8 throughout his whole career. His more offensive role this season primarily comes from a shortage of players with end product and a simultaneous abundance of midfielders. Not saying that you're wrong with your apples/oranges argument - I understand when you see it that way - but Havertz usually plays way deeper than people in here think.

I agree with this - Havertz has been at his best when he has license to roam - dropping deep, pushing in behind when there's an opportunity, popping up on the opposite flank, etc. I actually prefer him as an 8 in Chelsea's prospective system next year, especially if he can push up into a quasi-9 position in possession with Pulisic pushing the left flank and Werner and Ziyech moving deeper & occupying central areas, while being stationed deeper in midfield in defense. There is definitely a misguided notion on here that he's a right winger - absolutely not the case.

I do think there may be valid questions about how Ziyech and Havertz interact as some of their preferred zones overlap, but at the same time both are highly intelligent and adaptable players that fit within a variety of roles. The extent to which they form a relationship and understanding may be key to Chelsea's attack next year.

 

[Baneofthegame]

Are Chelsea fans furious this isn’t done yet? Or is it just our fan base that collectively goes mental when big money signings aren’t done instantly?

 

[Pexbo]

Think what's so frustrating about Chelsea's transfers so far this summer is the fact they're getting them wrapped up so early, while no doubt we will be doing our usual dithering and back and forth

How have they been able to get them all sorted so quickly? Wasn't Werner before the transfer window even opened?

Also how have they got all this money? I know they had the ban so have some stashed away but rumours now they're after a goalkeeper as well, just feels a lot of money in one hit, almost City esque.

Absolutely racing along this transfer isn’t it