Kai Havertz

[bond19821982]

Since the restart Chelsea have been playing 4-3-3 with Kante as the dedicated deep-lying 6 behind two more attack-minded 8s. Mount has been genuinely excellent as one of the 8s; Havertz coming in would displace Barkley. Given how well Pulisic has played and how shocking Tammy has been, Chelsea's front six for next year would surely be something like this:

-------------------Kante--------------------
-------Havertz-----------Mount-------
Ziyech---------Werner-------Pulisic

Thanks, that actually looks like a fifa formation at best. Kante has his own issues in a pure destroyer role while Havertz has never played as a pure 8.

 

[RDCR07]

They do but if they have a summer of Ziyech, Werner and Havertz that's absolutely insane on an attacking front and could sent them up for years with world class talent. Havertz is there for the taking I feel, this opportunity doesn't come up alot

I would love for us to get him but where does he play? Jack Grealish isn’t as good as Bruno or Pogba so he is a bit more realistic rotation/backup option. Kai is almost on the level of Bruno and soon will be if he isn’t already. He is a terrific young player. How do you rotate those players and how do you keep them happy?

If Pogba leaves I can definitely see him come in and we move to a system that City and Liverpool employ where they don’t strictly play with a #10 but with two advanced midfielders and one proper holding midfielder behind them. Or if we switch to a diamond then he easily fits in.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Thanks, that actually looks like a fifa formation at best. Kante has his own issues in a pure destroyer role while Havertz has never played as a pure 8.

Dunno about that; it's looked effective since the restart. Mount is very good defensively and Kante's issues on the ball in a 6 role are somewhat mitigated by having playmakers like Havertz & Ziyech dropping deep to offer support. Furthermore, Havertz has played deeper semi-regularly this season - he's gotten publicity since the restart playing as a false 9 but he's played deeper in midfield far more frequently.

 

[RDCR07]

Since the restart Chelsea have been playing 4-3-3 with Kante as the dedicated deep-lying 6 behind two more attack-minded 8s. Mount has been genuinely excellent as one of the 8s; Havertz coming in would displace Barkley. Given how well Pulisic has played and how shocking Tammy has been, Chelsea's front six for next year would surely be something like this:

-------------------Kante--------------------
-------Havertz-----------Mount-------
Ziyech---------Werner-------Pulisic

Assuming you keep Jorginho wouldn’t it be better if you move Kante up and play the former as a holding mid?

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

What type of player this guy is? I never watch Leverkusen nowadays so very curious.

Watched his YouTube videos, he looks like Dele Alli type of no 10 more than Özil type. Someone with flair, makes good movement, link up play & great finisher. Not much with his playmaking ability.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Assuming you keep Jorginho wouldn’t it be better if you move Kante up and play the former as a holding mid?

Don't really think so, Jorginho isn't mobile enough to cover two more attacking CMs. Also word is Jorginho is likely to be sold this summer; Lampard has soured on him especially since the restart.

 

[Renegade]

Surely one out of RLC or Barkley has to leave if Chelsea sign this guy?

 

[VP89]

Assuming you keep Jorginho wouldn’t it be better if you move Kante up and play the former as a holding mid?

Weird, the lineup also misses out their best midfielder

 

[Infra-red]

What type of player this guy is? I never watch Leverkusen nowadays so very curious.

Watched his YouTube videos, he looks like Dele Alli type of no 10 more than Özil type. Someone with flair, makes good movement, link up play & great finisher. Not much with his playmaking ability.

He has described himself as a cross between Ballack and Ozil, which seems apt. It seems likely that he'll dominate the German national team for the next decade.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Surely one out of RLC or Barkley has to leave if Chelsea sign this guy?

Lots of rumours Barkley may be used as a makeweight in a potential Declan Rice deal.

 

[AltiUn]

Lots of rumours Barkley may be used as a makeweight in a potential Declan Rice deal.

Are Chelsea essentially planning on replacing 4 of their front 6? Or is Rice playing CB?

 

[RDCR07]

Are Chelsea essentially planning on replacing 4 of their front 6? Or is Rice playing CB?

Lampard sees Rice as a CB apparently.

 

[Adam-Utd]

What type of player this guy is? I never watch Leverkusen nowadays so very curious.

Watched his YouTube videos, he looks like Dele Alli type of no 10 more than Özil type. Someone with flair, makes good movement, link up play & great finisher. Not much with his playmaking ability.

Pretty much. He's a 2nd striker who's a good finisher and times his movement well into the box.

People acting like he's the next Mbappe are going to be a bit disappointed.

 

[WeePat]

Surely one out of RLC or Barkley has to leave if Chelsea sign this guy?

RLC is a complete question mark at the moment. He turns 25 a few months into next season, and to date, he's had what, 2 seasons of regular football as senior level? He'll likely hang around, but due to his injury problems, no sane manager would go into any season relying on RLC to be one of the main players. Chelsea should cash in on Barkley's good form right now and strike a deal with West Ham.

 

[dbs235]

Thanks, that actually looks like a fifa formation at best. Kante has his own issues in a pure destroyer role while Havertz has never played as a pure 8.

It looks very attacking but Mount puts in a suprisingly good shift defensively for an attacking player, which is probably why Lampard thinks it can work.

 

[Renegade]

RLC is a complete question mark at the moment. He turns 25 a few months into next season, and to date, he's had what, 2 seasons of regular football as senior level? He'll likely hang around, but due to his injury problems, no sane manager would go into any season relying on RLC to be one of the main players. Chelsea should cash in on Barkley's good form right now and strike a deal with West Ham.

Agree 100% with RLC however Barkley can get himself a club better than West Ham. I don’t see him accepting a move to team weaker than Everton.

 

[ZolaWasMagic]

I think Barkley and Jorginho will go this summer.

 

[Dancfc]

Pretty much. He's a 2nd striker who's a good finisher and times his movement well into the box.

People acting like he's the next Mbappe are going to be a bit disappointed.

Who has said that? Mbappe is arguably the third best player in the world already.

Anyone who compares another youngster favourably against Mbappe need to stop drinking out of Ty's water bottle.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Who has said that? Mbappe is arguably the third best player in the world already.

Anyone who compares another youngster favourably against Mbappe need to stop drinking out of Ty's water bottle.

I've just seen some people get overly excited and some equally as worried.

Havertz has great potential but I've seen him blow very hot and cold. I'm not convinced he's as good as people make him out to be.

 

[.mica]

Iam wondering if he is an option for us. He is a great footballer. But maybe too expansive for Dortmund. But he would fit so well wouldn't he? Maybe a pipe-dream, maybe realistic, i don't know. What are the thoughts of Bayern or other BuLi fans in here?

 

[Judas]

Iam wondering if he is an option for us. He is a great footballer. But maybe too expansive for Dortmund. But he would fit so well wouldn't he? Maybe a pipe-dream, maybe realistic, i don't know. What are the thoughts of Bayern or other BuLi fans in here?

Doubt he'd see it as the step up he's clearly after.

 

[charlenefan]

I wonder if Chelsea would use both him and Ziyech in a midfield 3 like City do with De Bruyne and Silva and we are with Pogba and Fernandes? Something like

------------------Kepa------------------
Azpili--Rudiger--Zouma--Alonso
------------------Kante------------------
-------Ziyech----------Havertz-------
Pulisic------Giroud------Werner

Obviously I assume Chelsea will do something with that back line and I'd imagine they'll try to move on from Giroud again

 

[WeePat]

I wonder if Chelsea would use both him and Ziyech in a midfield 3 like City do with De Bruyne and Silva and we are with Pogba and Fernandes? Something like

------------------Kepa------------------
Azpili--Rudiger--Zouma--Alonso
------------------Kante------------------
-------Ziyech----------Havertz-------
Pulisic------Giroud------Werner

Obviously I assume Chelsea will do something with that back line and I'd imagine they'll try to move on from Giroud again

The thing about Ziyech, Werner and Havertz that makes it so exciting, beyond their obvious talent, is their remarkable flexibility. It gives Lampard a lot of scope to work with.

 

[.mica]

The thing about Ziyech, Werner and Havertz that makes it so exciting, beyond their obvious talent, is their remarkable flexibility. It gives Lampard a lot of scope to work with.

Werner is flexible? I doubt that. Havertz and Ziyech are, but Werner you can use only in one way thought.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Werner is flexible? I doubt that. Havertz and Ziyech are, but Werner you can use only in one way thought.

Werner can play in a pairing, up top by himself in a sort of false 9 role, and on the left wing. That's more flexible than most strikers.

 

[.mica]

Werner can play in a pairing, up top by himself in a sort of false 9 role, and on the left wing. That's more flexible than most strikers.

For me its a pressing-system striker only. He can press very well (went to the pressing school of BuLi and you can see that especially from the times with Nagelsmann he learned a lot), he is fast and knows where to go and when if the pressing was a sucess/ in counterplay. But he isn't strong with his head, he can't combine on small space, he is relying on his speed and his finishing which is also very well.

 

[TheReligion]

Much of the speculation around Chilwell has cooled of late - reports are we're looking at more reasonably priced options like Telles (now that PSG have pulled out), Tagliafico, & Digne. Rice's pricetag may be offset to some extent by Barkley going the other way and/or a potential loan deal for Tomori (as has been recently reported).

Chelsea pulled in ~€155m from Hazard and Morata and a further €30m from Boga & Pasalic; ~€93m has been spent on Werner & Ziyech to date. That leaves €92m before even dipping into the normal transfer budget for the summer & without accounting for further sales - there are many players likely to be offloaded from the squad as well (obviously fees are estimated):

Alonso - €20m
Batshuayi - €15m
Bakayoko - €20m
Kenedy - €8m
Emerson - €20m
Drinkwater - €5m (if that)

Point being, Chelsea are arguably in as strong a position as any club in Europe to further add to the team.



Chelsea view Rice as a ball playing CB going forward. Also I'd not be surprised in the slightest if Jorginho is moved on this summer.

I think you have money but not that much. You bought Kepa for £75m, Jorginho for £52m and Kovacic for £40m. Then add £58m for Pulisic. The Hazard and Morata money is long gone that's £200m plus spent.

Obviously you have cash due to the ban but I don't foresee you spending £300m or so in one window. It'll also be difficult to off load some of your dross all at once. It could take a few windows.

Anyway Havertz looks a good alternative to Sancho if the price is right.

 

[Scarecrow]

What type of player this guy is? I never watch Leverkusen nowadays so very curious.

Watched his YouTube videos, he looks like Dele Alli type of no 10 more than Özil type. Someone with flair, makes good movement, link up play & great finisher. Not much with his playmaking ability.

You’re spot-on, I’d say. He’s improved his playmaking this season, after Brandt left (he was the creative force before that) but his primary role is still very much a finisher, rather than creator. His bread and butter is a through ball to one of the wingers, a run in the box and a finish from the cutback.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

For me its a pressing-system striker only. He can press very well (went to the pressing school of BuLi and you can see that especially from the times with Nagelsmann he learned a lot), he is fast and knows where to go and when if the pressing was a sucess/ in counterplay. But he isn't strong with his head, he can't combine on small space, he is relying on his speed and his finishing which is also very well.

For me prior to this past year, I'd have agreed with you but he's come on by leaps and bounds under Nagelsmann. He passed more this past season & has doubled his key passes over the past two years. I agree that he has defined strengths and weaknesses though; I was speaking more to where he can line up and be effective on the pitch.

Also, what's interesting is RBL & Chelsea have very similar pressing profiles:

 

[onemanarmy]

I wonder if Chelsea would use both him and Ziyech in a midfield 3 like City do with De Bruyne and Silva and we are with Pogba and Fernandes? Something like

------------------Kepa------------------
Azpili--Rudiger--Zouma--Alonso
------------------Kante------------------
-------Ziyech----------Havertz-------
Pulisic------Giroud------Werner

Obviously I assume Chelsea will do something with that back line and I'd imagine they'll try to move on from Giroud again

That midfield would be bossed by a lot. Way too attacking. Ziyech won't work in a midfield 3. Backline is still rubbish too.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

I think you have money but not that much. You bought Kepa for £75m, Jorginho for £52m and Kovacic for £40m. Then add £58m for Pulisic. The Hazard and Morata money is long gone that's £200m plus spent.

Obviously you have cash due to the ban but I don't foresee you spending £300m or so in one window. It'll also be difficult to off load some of your dross all at once. It could take a few windows.

Anyway Havertz looks a good alternative to Sancho if the price is right.

Well, all those acquisitions were on the books for previous years - technically all fell under the fiscal year of 2018-2019 and thus have been accounted for prior to the Hazard and Morata money that came in for the 19-20 year.

I agree that it'll take time to flog off some of our dead weight, but even if they're loan deals with options down the line that helps. I also think there will be increased demands for players on loan given the COVID situation, with clubs who are less financially secure looking to defer payments - ultimately this may increase future earnings relative to what might normally be expected for Chelsea.

 

[Nou_Camp99]

What have Chelsea's biggest issues been this season? They simply can't defend. Defence isn't good enough and neither is their keeper.

Solution? They buy Zieych, Werner and Havertz and go hell for leather. Hahahahaha.

They are definitely not going to be dull to watch are they? Like the front half of a Ferrari F50 and the other half a banged up old Fiat Punto.

 

[Dancfc]

What have Chelsea's biggest issues been this season? They simply can't defend. Defence isn't good enough and neither is their keeper.

Solution? They buy Zieych, Werner and Havertz and go hell for leather. Hahahahaha.

They are definitely not going to be dull to watch are they? Like the front half of a Ferrari F50 and the other half a banged up old Fiat Punto.

Failure to finish off games is everybit as big a problem as the defense (probably more when you consider that a lot of the issues at the back are exasperated by Kepa's all time collapse).

Take Arsenal at home for example 19 shots to 2, score ends 2-2.

 

[beingshe7don]

What have Chelsea's biggest issues been this season? They simply can't defend. Defence isn't good enough and neither is their keeper.

Solution? They buy Zieych, Werner and Havertz and go hell for leather. Hahahahaha.

They are definitely not going to be dull to watch are they? Like the front half of a Ferrari F50 and the other half a banged up old Fiat Punto.

They're essentially replacing Hazard, Willian and Pedro in one go with the acquistion of Werner, Ziyech and Havertz. They've recruited based on the availability and how cheap they've acquired those three world-class players. I think they'll probably wait to spend on their defense in the next window. They would have replaced half of their first 11 in 2 windows and we've only taken 7 years and still not there yet.

 

[do.ob]

For me prior to this past year, I'd have agreed with you but he's come on by leaps and bounds under Nagelsmann. He passed more this past season & has doubled his key passes over the past two years. I agree that he has defined strengths and weaknesses though; I was speaking more to where he can line up and be effective on the pitch.

Werner can play in a pairing, up top by himself in a sort of false 9 role, and on the left wing. That's more flexible than most strikers.

I'm not sure I would agree with most of that. First of all on the statistical front: Leipzig as a whole has grown a lot in terms of attacking quality from Hasenhüttl to Ragnick to Nagelsmann, their xG went from 51 to 68 to 76, most of their players saw a significant rise in their xG and/or xA values over those three seasons, so you probably can't just put all that improvement down to Werner's personal growth.

The last time I have seen Werner play as a lone striker was for DIE MANNSCHAFT and he failed miserably, what makes you think he could do that (well)?
When has he played as something resembling a false 9? Really, if he could play either that would solve a ton of problems for Löw.
He may occasionally play as a LW on the team sheet, but that's mostly just on paper. They play with a wingback behind him, who actually provides the width, they still use a selfless striker, who does the dirty work for him and it's still Werner who takes the most shots. It's like calling Aubameyang a winger.

A leopard can't change its spots. It's somewhat similar with Havertz, he's been deployed quite a bit on the wing as well, but in the end his skill-set is that of a central player, so he either drifts inside anyway or he stays wide and becomes ineffective (relative to his talent).

 

[passing-wind]

What have Chelsea's biggest issues been this season? They simply can't defend. Defence isn't good enough and neither is their keeper.

Solution? They buy Zieych, Werner and Havertz and go hell for leather. Hahahahaha.

They are definitely not going to be dull to watch are they? Like the front half of a Ferrari F50 and the other half a banged up old Fiat Punto.

They also been unable to break down packed defences. I do echo a similar sentiment however, signing rice as a defender isn't enough they need to go all out for a quality center half pairing.

 

[Nou_Camp99]

I should have made it clearer that I think those 2 transfers (plus Havertz if it happens ) are terrific moves and make them a lot better.

Just don't trust any of their defenders or keepers. They could be like Liverpool were under Rodgers. Amazing one way and awful the other. Expect to see a lot of 3 2 wins and the odd loss too.

Exciting season ahead anyway. United with Bruno n maybe Sancho and Chelsea with these 3 could really ruffle some feathers with the top 2. City look vulnerable down to the age of their squad. Liverpool sadly I think will win number 20 next year. Everything is falling into place for them again worryingly. Afcon being cancelled is a huge bit of luck for them.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

I'm not sure I would agree with most of that. First of all on the statistical front: Leipzig as a whole has grown a lot in terms of attacking quality from Hasenhüttl to Ragnick to Nagelsmann, their xG went from 51 to 68 to 76, most of their players saw a significant rise in their xG and/or xA values over those three seasons, so you probably can't just put all that improvement down to Werner's personal growth.

The last time I have seen Werner play as a lone striker was for DIE MANNSCHAFT and he failed miserably, what makes you think he could do that (well)?
When has he played as something resembling a false 9? Really, if he could play either that would solve a ton of problems for Löw.
He may occasionally play as a LW on the team sheet, but that's mostly just on paper. They play with a wingback behind him, who actually provides the width, they still use a selfless striker, who does the dirty work for him and it's still Werner who takes the most shots. It's like calling Aubameyang a winger.

A leopard can't change its spots. It's somewhat similar with Havertz, he's been deployed quite a bit on the wing as well, but in the end his skill-set is that of a central player, so he either drifts inside anyway or he stays wide and becomes ineffective (relative to his talent).

Re: the first part, I'd certainly not put all of it down to Werner individually, but I do think it's fair to say his passing abilities in tight spaces have been improved under Nagelsmann. Looking at expected goals /assists in that context would be misleading, but I think looking at key passes at least is illustrative since these are most likely to come from tight spaces in and around the box.

I agree that Werner didn't look great at the last World Cup, but to be fair that German team was a trainwreck from the jump - I don't rate Low at this point at all quite frankly. It's also worth pointing out that Werner was only 22 with (I think) only 12-15 caps when he went to the WC. I'd also argue that his ability to play as a false 9 has really been a focus for Nagelsmann this year - he's said that he thinks the best way to use Werner is to have him drop deeper towards midfield so he can build a head of steam as he runs towards defenders. While he's mostly been used in a pair or off the left this year, Nagelsmann has also used him in this sort of withdrawn role. I do agree that this would solve a lot of potential issues for Low; we'll see if he gives that a go moving forward now that Sane is fit again.

You're right that my use of "LW" was incorrect; I should have described him as more of an inside left forward. My mistake. Aubameyang is a very good comparison.

 

[do.ob]

Re: the first part, I'd certainly not put all of it down to Werner individually, but I do think it's fair to say his passing abilities in tight spaces have been improved under Nagelsmann. Looking at expected goals /assists in that context would be misleading, but I think looking at key passes at least is illustrative since these are most likely to come from tight spaces in and around the box.

I agree that Werner didn't look great at the last World Cup, but to be fair that German team was a trainwreck from the jump - I don't rate Low at this point at all quite frankly. It's also worth pointing out that Werner was only 22 with (I think) only 12-15 caps when he went to the WC. I'd also argue that his ability to play as a false 9 has really been a focus for Nagelsmann this year - he's said that he thinks the best way to use Werner is to have him drop deeper towards midfield so he can build a head of steam as he runs towards defenders. While he's mostly been used in a pair or off the left this year, Nagelsmann has also used him in this sort of withdrawn role. I do agree that this would solve a lot of potential issues for Low; we'll see if he gives that a go moving forward now that Sane is fit again.

You're right that my use of "LW" was incorrect; I should have described him as more of an inside left forward. My mistake. Aubameyang is a very good comparison.

I would just take everything with a grain of salt when you look at a player's stats and take out of context that he plays under a coach that organizes his teams extremely well and gives him a free role in that framework. It's part of the reason why people have been so disappointed with players signed from Dortmund. His passing stats (kp/90, xA/90) indeed look good for a striker, but for what it's worth my personal impression is that while he can take part in combinations via layoffs and the likes he doesn't have particularly great playmaking qualities, if I was bothered I'd check how many of them came from squaring it to a team mate after Leipzig flooded the opposition area.

His troubles in the national team didn't end with the world cup, if anything they have gotten worse, with Löw exploring other options upfront, such as Freiburg's Waldschmidt, Schalke's Uth, Reus, Gnabry and Sane. During the Euros qualifier he's started just 3/8 matches, finished none of them, been subbed in towards in the end in two and fully benched in three. Even Löw is not such a big idiot that he keeps overlooking a top class no9, so he can experiment with midfielders upfront.

What you're quoting about Nagelsmann isn't really the role of a false 9 (in the sense of someone nominally playing upfront, then dropping deeper to pull away defenders and maybe do some playmaking Messi style), he's letting Werner attack from different(LW) or deeper angles, so he's harder to mark and can run at defenders with his pace. But at the same time Schick or Poulsen always remain to lead the line for him.

Which is really why I'm wondering how Chelsea plans to balance all this. Ziyech is basically a no 10, Werner is basically a second striker who demands someone like Giroud (as opposed to Tammy) to play, Havertz is basically a second striker as well, Pulisic has been best when cutting inside from the left too. I think you would need truly amazing fullbacks to make this work efficiently and even then there might be balance issues.

 

[TheReligion]

Well, all those acquisitions were on the books for previous years - technically all fell under the fiscal year of 2018-2019 and thus have been accounted for prior to the Hazard and Morata money that came in for the 19-20 year.

I agree that it'll take time to flog off some of our dead weight, but even if they're loan deals with options down the line that helps. I also think there will be increased demands for players on loan given the COVID situation, with clubs who are less financially secure looking to defer payments - ultimately this may increase future earnings relative to what might normally be expected for Chelsea.

Whatever years books it's on doesn't really matter though. The money has been spent. It's also worth noting the club announced recent losses of just under £100m according to Forbes.

As I said, you have money from the transfer ban but it's not some astronomical amount the will allow you to pick up several £70-80m players in one window. Without making any sales the wage bill will also be phenomenal.