Film Justice League

[Dirty Schwein]

Are DC movies much different than Marvel movies in ways that matter?

Sure, the colour palette is darker, is that that meaningful? Also, the DCU has a lot less humour. I can't see how these make the films better... Especially if you consider the young audiences films like these attract.

If DC really wanted to properly go dark and be different to Marvel, then take a page out of something like The Crow. Instead, this falls in an awkward place between between a dark movie that is not quite dark enough. I don't know if they had an age for their target market.

Marvel is far lighter as a franchise and clearly aiming for a quadrant market, yet they went dark in a way it mattered, and that's with the narrative, not simply dark visuals. Look at Infinity War and how that plays out. Look at the start of End Game. Thanos' motivation, Killmongers motivation. These villains had actual depth as opposed to DC villains.

Where it matters, DC are trying to do what Marvel did, and that's to set up a universe. It feels forced and rushed. It's not different at all, it's just shit.

I would prefer DC films to truly be different. Maybe just make each hero have a series of films NOT aiming to create a universe. Let Batman do Batman (like Dark Knight), I liked that Aquaman didn't try to force itself into a universe, it's probably the DC film I enjoyed the most. The first Wonder Woman was decent (until the final act) and again, it wasn't trying to tie into the DCU. I would LOVE a proper solo Flash movie that is its own thing.

With Flashpoint, DC can always merge the universe later and in a more organic way.

Instead they have gone down a route where they feel like a second rate MCU that somehow has fans saying it's different simply because of the "darker" visuals.

 

[Hamnat]

On one hand I get the criticism of why keep watching DC films, or Snyder films in particular, if you didn't like any of them. For my part I am pretty much comic nerd. I collected them DC and Marvel, we are truly in a time at the height of their popularity in Mass media. Blockbuster films, high profile big budget TV shows, the best actors in the world bringing them to the screens. I want all the comic properties to be good, to be successful. So there is no "bias" to me personally.

What I find baffling about the messy, overly complex way DC has gone about their cinematic universe is despite having the most recognizable characters in arguable all of fiction, Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash. They still struggle to get these characters right on screen. Other than Batman obviously but only solo not in a shared universe yet. Even though they have decades of stories and character development and different writers and interpretations to pull from. They always manage to just toss that characterization aside, especially Snyder for me and its just not for the better. I don't think you have to be a slave to the comics stories. Obviously cinematic changes to make the character work on screen can be good too. But, in general I don't think he does it well.

From Lex Luthor acting like Riddler in BVS and less so in Snyder Cut. Why? I don't think it added anything to choose to play him like that and I found it annoying. Flash in JL, why make him goofy and antisocial and desperate for friendship? I absolutely hated that portrayal. If you wanted a younger less confident Flash just use Wally. He still isn't that goofy but you diminish the character of Barry with this portrayal he let Ezra do. And I am not blaming Ezra he was written that way or allowed by the director to keep doing that. They shoot themselves in the foot trying to reinvent the wheel and run away from the characterizations that kept these characters popular for 50 years or whatever.

Using a different Marvel example as in Fox Men/Fantastic Four. Those movies were less successful etc. for the exact same reason. They run away from the character building and the stories that made them popular for decades. Focusing only on a few characters and using the rest as special effect set pieces over and over, Storm being a prime example.

There is no reason all of the Justice League characters cannot have successful solo movies. There is no reason they cannot all get together in a shared universe like they are in their comics. What keeps stopping and stalling all of that to me is the corporate and directorial/writing decisions they keep making to screw themselves. They are all over the map. They give Synder 70 plus million and all the JL actors to finish this up. And then???? They have Pattinson Batman wrapping up filming but its supposedly another one off on another Earth nothing to do with these. Ok... been done many times before with Batman trilogies but why can't you make him fit in a shared universe as well?

We have a big budget Green lantern show coming to HBO Max apparently. Is that another one off? Is it just going to be connected to the TV shows? Rebooted Suicide Squad with James Gunn, ok where does that fit in? Are we still using Snyder's Battfleck and Joker even if they aren't portrayed physically? The point is DC/WB does this to themselves. It isn't fan and critical bias that is to blame.

 

[Ekeke]

So did anyone actually like Ezra Miller as Barry Allen?

I'm still confused by his casting. I didnt find him funny, though I could tell he was supposed to be and I have no idea why this guy

Is supposed to make me think of this guy

 

[FrankDrebin]

I still think of a mass murderer when I see Ezra Miller.

 

[reelworld]

Just a genuinely curious question: if you haven’t watched it, how are you sure Mockney has hit a home run with his review?

I think a lot of overrating but overall, much better than the JW release. I’d go with a 7/10, after thinking the 2017 release was a 4/10, or a “generous” 5.

I'm saying in general Mocks is spot on why Snyder movies is pretty bad.
And after sitting on that abomination that is Man of Steel, BvS and JL, I'm pretty sure I won't sit for 4 hours of movie that I already watched and don't like

 

[Dirty Schwein]

So did anyone actually like Ezra Miller as Barry Allen?

I'm still confused by his casting. I didnt find him funny, though I could tell he was supposed to be and I have no idea why this guy

Is supposed to make me think of this guy

He is a pure and utter cnut in real life. So is Jason Mamoa, but Ezra is the bigger cnut of the two.

 

[Andy_Cole]

Unpopular opinion.

Batman vs Superman is amazing. Rewatching the ultimate and I’m loving every scene of this. Even the Martha scene doesn’t bother me.

 

[sullydnl]

I'm saying in general Mocks is spot on why Snyder movies is pretty bad.
And after sitting on that abomination that is Man of Steel, BvS and JL, I'm pretty sure I won't sit for 4 hours of movie that I already watched and don't like

Tbf, Man of Steel was definitely better than either BvS or JL, not least because it was one of the most happily stupid blockbusters I can remember.

If this version of JL promised "Krypton decide it's too late to save themselves even as they easily save the bad guys" or "Kevin Coster runs into a nearby tornado to save a dog" levels of stupid throughout its four hour runtime then I'd happily watch. It's the prospect of 4 hours of the dreary tediousness of the other two that puts me off, despite finding the story of how this version came into existence interesting.

 

[Ekeke]

He is a pure and utter cnut in real life. So is Jason Mamoa, but Ezra is the bigger cnut of the two.

I have no idea about these things. Whats the Mamoa story?

 

[Dirty Schwein]

I have no idea about these things. Whats the Mamoa story?

Was flown in to do a promotional shoot. Was fecked off his face, uncooperative, delivered an awful performance, was generally very rude.

 

[Adamsk7]

I thought this was almost as terrible as the Whedon version, just in completely different ways.
My main issue with Snyder is that he always uses the slo-mo to make something seem epic but doesn’t seem to understand that what makes a scene epic is a driving narrative and characters we care about....

I won’t even compare this to Marvel, it’s not worth it. Like comparing a prime piece of fillet steak to a school dinner beef patty.

it makes me sad too because the characters are so rich with history and there are hundreds of great stories adaptable for the big screen. DC should stick to singular stories like Joker and the upcoming The Batman. The “graphic novel”style one off elseworlds films would allow them to keep things original and change tone to suit the characters.

 

[reelworld]

Tbf, Man of Steel was definitely better than either BvS or JL, not least because it was one of the most happily stupid blockbusters I can remember.

If this version of JL promised "Krypton decide it's too late to save themselves even as they easily save the bad guys" or "Kevin Coster runs into a nearby tornado to save a dog" levels of stupid throughout its four hour runtime then I'd happily watch. It's the prospect of 4 hours of the dreary tediousness of the other two that puts me off, despite finding the story of how this version came into existence interesting.

Yeah, but I still don't understand how anyone could watch Man of Steel and thinking, this is a good foundation for a shared universe.

Add:
Also I'd argue that Snyder doesn't even get Batman, a dark character that is supposedly fit his approach better.
His Batman is undeniably a fecking moron. How on earth he justified his place in a team with powerful robot, goddess and alien?

 

[Dirty Schwein]

Yeah, but I still don't understand how anyone could watch Man of Steel and thinking, this is a good foundation for a shared universe.

Add:
Also I'd argue that Snyder doesn't even get Batman, a dark character that is supposedly fit his approach better.
His Batman is undeniably a fecking moron. How on earth he justified his place in a team with powerful robot, goddess and alien?

Because he's rich.

 

[Amarsdd]

I don't agree with this at all. Yes, I watch superhero movies for a big dose of escapism. I watch them because I grew up loving them when the only decent ones were Superman the Movie and Tim Burton's Batman. Most of the rest were low-budget, made for TV shite, and I still watched them and tried my best to enjoy them, even when they had awful special effects, rubber ears and wrestlers hamming their way through dreadful scripts.

When a film has had around $400m spent on it and years of development time, I expect it to have a decent script, a well-chosen and suitable cast and top-class effects. In short, I expect it to be good, as there's no reason for it not to be.

Oh ofcourse it has to be good and enjoyable, just that these will rarely measure up to the idea of what Scorsese might call actual "films". And I'm not talking about giving a pass to shit on a stick like Suicide Squad, Dark Phoenix, the majority of the Star Wars movies and the like when I'm talking about compartmentalizing them.

 

[Dante]

I thought this was almost as terrible as the Whedon version, just in completely different ways.
My main issue with Snyder is that he always uses the slo-mo to make something seem epic but doesn’t seem to understand that what makes a scene epic is a driving narrative and characters we care about....

I won’t even compare this to Marvel, it’s not worth it. Like comparing a prime piece of fillet steak to a school dinner beef patty.

it makes me sad too because the characters are so rich with history and there are hundreds of great stories adaptable for the big screen. DC should stick to singular stories like Joker and the upcoming The Batman. The “graphic novel”style one off elseworlds films would allow them to keep things original and change tone to suit the characters.

More like comparing McDonalds to Burger King

 

[reelworld]

Because he's rich.

Yeah, but that's not really interesting

 

[Ish]

I'm saying in general Mocks is spot on why Snyder movies is pretty bad.
And after sitting on that abomination that is Man of Steel, BvS and JL, I'm pretty sure I won't sit for 4 hours of movie that I already watched and don't like

Nah, fair enough, makes sense. I think you should give it a go, maybe you might like it, as far a stretch as it might seem!

 

[Ekeke]

Yeah, but I still don't understand how anyone could watch Man of Steel and thinking, this is a good foundation for a shared universe.

Add:
Also I'd argue that Snyder doesn't even get Batman, a dark character that is supposedly fit his approach better.
His Batman is undeniably a fecking moron. How on earth he justified his place in a team with powerful robot, goddess and alien?

Its easy to justify a team if you make the team. He recruited them. This is probably why. Also none of the others went one on one with Superman

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Are DC movies much different than Marvel movies in ways that matter?

Sure, the colour palette is darker, is that that meaningful? Also, the DCU has a lot less humour. I can't see how these make the films better... Especially if you consider the young audiences films like these attract.

If DC really wanted to properly go dark and be different to Marvel, then take a page out of something like The Crow. Instead, this falls in an awkward place between between a dark movie that is not quite dark enough. I don't know if they had an age for their target market.

Marvel is far lighter as a franchise and clearly aiming for a quadrant market, yet they went dark in a way it mattered, and that's with the narrative, not simply dark visuals. Look at Infinity War and how that plays out. Look at the start of End Game. Thanos' motivation, Killmongers motivation. These villains had actual depth as opposed to DC villains.

Where it matters, DC are trying to do what Marvel did, and that's to set up a universe. It feels forced and rushed. It's not different at all, it's just shit.

I would prefer DC films to truly be different. Maybe just make each hero have a series of films NOT aiming to create a universe. Let Batman do Batman (like Dark Knight), I liked that Aquaman didn't try to force itself into a universe, it's probably the DC film I enjoyed the most. The first Wonder Woman was decent (until the final act) and again, it wasn't trying to tie into the DCU. I would LOVE a proper solo Flash movie that is its own thing.

With Flashpoint, DC can always merge the universe later and in a more organic way.

Instead they have gone down a route where they feel like a second rate MCU that somehow has fans saying it's different simply because of the "darker" visuals.

From what I've seen, superhero films tend to be shallow generic entertainers that lack any depth or genuine quality. Marvel have done a better job in their supposedly intricate "universe" but these are mostly really bland films. It's just that they aren't a mess like the DCEU ones and are usually snappier and better packages. So credit to them for that. But for me personally, the better DC films - Dark Knight Trilogy (especially) and Joker , are much better films than anything on the other side, where I've only liked GOTG 1 and Deadpool (mildly). The Avengers movies are absolutely dross.

 

[decorativeed]

From what I've seen, superhero films tend to be shallow generic entertainers that lack any depth or genuine quality. Marvel have done a better job in their supposedly intricate "universe" but these are mostly really bland films. It's just that they aren't a mess like the DCEU ones and are usually snappier and better packages. So credit to them for that. But for me personally, the better DC films - Dark Knight Trilogy (especially) and Joker , are much better films than anything on the other side, where I've only liked GOTG 1 and Deadpool (mildly). The Avengers movies are absolutely dross.

But we're all talking about the DCEU, which the Dark Knight trilogy and Joker are not a part of. Nobody is denying that they are largely good films.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

But we're all talking about the DCEU, which the Dark Knight trilogy and Joker are not a part of. Nobody is denying that they are largely good films.

You mentioned DC movies and Marvel movies. Don't see why only the EU movies are relevant to that. I mean, I certainly don't watch these popcorn entertainers for some masterfully intricate web of collective storytelling.

 

[decorativeed]

You mentioned DC movies and Marvel movies. Don't see why only the EU movies are relevant to that. I mean, I certainly don't watch these popcorn entertainers for some masterfully intricate web of collective storytelling.

Because Justice League is a DCEU movie? Because Zak Snyder has only directed DCEU movies, and this thread is about those two things, perhaps?

Most of the comments are about the fact they've done a woeful job of collective storytelling in the DCEU. That's why the Dark Knight trilogy and Joker are not being discussed.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Because Justice League is a DCEU movie? Because Zak Snyder has only directed DCEU movies, and this thread is about those two things, perhaps?

Its also a superhero film by DC and this thread is about discussing that toorather than limiting it to stuff like universes, multiverses and what have you.

 

[decorativeed]

Its also a superhero film by DC and this thread is about discussing that toorather than limiting it to stuff like universes, multiverses and what have you.

Yes, but most people aren't discussing that and you're reacting to them as though they are. Context is everything.

 

[Salt Bailly]

What I want to know is who are the masochists among us that watched this in its entirety in one sitting?

SHOW YOURSELVES.

 

[pratyush_utd]

Liked this one better than theatre release. Story was much more coherent and Cyborg and Flash had meaningful roles in this while earlier one they were just there. Music choice was weird for Wonder Woman considering they already have one of the best music score for her action sequence. Although those slow motion scene initially felt good but nobody wants to sit through thousands of them. Also not sure if I remember correctly but CGI looks way better here. Darkseid sequences were quality and it's a shame we won't see more of him.

Zack doesn't use Batman at all properly. It just feels off and I can't point my finger at what is wrong. Fair to say Justice League is done but this was still okay watch due to my bias towards Justice League. They should have sticked with this movie instead of what they released.

 

[Sylar]

What I want to know is who are the masochists among us that watched this in its entirety in one sitting?

SHOW YOURSELVES.

Me, at night before United v Milan

Liked this one better than theatre release. Story was much more coherent and Cyborg and Flash had meaningful roles in this while earlier one they were just there. Music choice was weird for Wonder Woman considering they already have one of the best music score for her action sequence. Although those slow motion scene initially felt good but nobody wants to sit through thousands of them. Also not sure if I remember correctly but CGI looks way better here. Darkseid sequences were quality and it's a shame we won't see more of him.

Zack doesn't use Batman at all properly. It just feels off and I can't point my finger at what is wrong. Fair to say Justice League is done but this was still okay watch due to my bias towards Justice League. They should have sticked with this movie instead of what they released.

How do they stick to this considering they need to cut 2 hours for cinema release?

Its also a superhero film by DC and this thread is about discussing that toorather than limiting it to stuff like universes, multiverses and what have you.

Most are talking about the dceu. It's fine if you want to talk about them, nobody is stopping you but the conversation for the most part has been on Snyder building a universe and not doing a great job

 

[Sylar]

Tweet

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Based on what I've read assume there were to be five parts for the whole story (Inc bvs where the story began) and JL was gonna be a trilogy as part of it with one more movie (probably a Superman or Batman one having a link too to the visions). Maybe flash at the end to reset it

But yeah five part trilogy heh

 

[pratyush_utd]

How do they stick to this considering they need to cut 2 hours for cinema release?

Last half an hour is just an epilogue section which would have been removed. I am sure there was enough filler in this that we could get another half an hour removed and nobody would notice. That brings it down to 3 hours. If Endgame can be 3 hours long then I don't see any problem with this.

 

[The Cat]

What I want to know is who are the masochists among us that watched this in its entirety in one sitting?

SHOW YOURSELVES.

Got it lined up with my son for Friday night. Will have to make sure I am stocked with beer.

 

[SalfordRed18]

The script has more stupid moments than your average Marvel movie (which is saying something!). But that's made up for by the characters are a bit more three-dimensional.

Overall, I like the tone of DC's attempt to reboot its universe. I just wish they employed more competent filmmakers.

For what it's worth, I watched the movie in x2.0 times the normal speed. It was decent for a two hour movie.

This isn't DCs attempt to reboot it's universe.

 

[SalfordRed18]

Unpopular opinion.

Batman vs Superman is amazing. Rewatching the ultimate and I’m loving every scene of this. Even the Martha scene doesn’t bother me.

That's just a terrible shout.

 

[rcoobc]

I can't believe this is in 4:3 resolution

 

[Superunknown]

I'm still amazed that we got this at all. I found Whedon's version to be utterly devoid of any personality and just quite boring. I watched this in one sitting last night and I'm slightly shocked that so many people can't seem to do this. I wonder if it's becoming a cultural or generational thing where people can only maintain attention for so long. It's never been an issue for me watching films. I've known people to watch films over two or even three nights, which blows my mind a little.

As for this, it was a million times better than Whedon's version. I enjoyed it. It's a far superior version of the film and I like the additions of more story, more Cyborg and Flash, a better understanding of Steppenwolf, introducion of Darkseid, the Nightmare future bits, etc. All of that is a hit for me.

One criticism that I have got is that I wish more consistency had been placed on the music. When the music from the other DC films hit, it came off quite well. But, I don't feel that the mix of orchestral music plus licensed music (popular music, realworld music, whatever you want to call it) fits too well, in my opinion. It's a little jarring. Example being the scene where the Flash rescues Iris from the truck. Should've just gone orchestral throughout. Man of Steel and Batman vs. Superman stuck with orchestral all the way through and it just works so much better.

So, overall, I really enjoyed it. Glad that we finally got it.

 

[Norman Brownbutter]

Finally finished it after three sittings, which is probably an indicator of where I am with this film. I'd give it a 6.5/10, easily better than the original, but not good enough for me to want a continuation of the story. I'm not going to bother using spoiler tags as most of the people here have already watched it.

The good

Visuals-It looks much better. No CG moustache alone would put it over the top of the original, but some very nice shots and cinematography present. The effects are competent. Flash's running still looks goofy but his time reversal visuals were very cool. Actions scenes look much better in the '300' lighting than it did with Whedon's warm color tone.

Plot-It's coherent. A lot of character and story development that wasn't present in the original, helps fill in some holes regarding Darkseid and Steppenwolf. Still too long, but as a hail mary from Snyder I understand he wanted to include everyhting he could. This brings me to the character who benefited the most from the new runtime-

Cyborg-Ray Fisher is the MVP of the film. If anything is worth saving from this version of the DCEU, it's him. He desperately needs a re-design but I'd be happy to see him in a solo film. He'd be a bit too powerful in the age of information but that can lead to some interesting scenarios.

The bad-Excessive use of 'Snyderisms'

Slow motion-Unbelievable amount. Like at some point I wondered if Snyder was just using it to see if he can make a world record. His need to make scenes feel 'epic' is a detriment to this film. Which brings me to my next point-

Score-Some very weird choices regards to score usage. Especially in the first half, almost every scene has a track running behind it to make it more emotional/badass/whatever. The most egregious one is the amazon 'haaahaaaaa' that accompanies almost every scene WW does something. A rock score when the league is simply walking into the tunnels also felt pretty weird. Sometimes scenes need to breathe and subtlety would help in those cases. I'm glad the scenes with the JL members talking to each other were left unscored.

Violence-I know it's R rated and that's Snyder's main thing. But the film revels in an excessive level of brutality from the beginning to the end. Cases in point-WW blew up a side of a building to stop a terrorist when she could've dispatched him just as easily as she did the others and then beheaded Steppenwolf after he got stabbed through the chest and was already out of commission. I guess the point is to portray WW as a warrior first, but her other DCEU depictions don't lay it on as thick.

Miscellaneous weirdness-Martian Manhunter posing as Martha to manipulate Lois, why? It seemed like someone told MM that Lois was important for JL2, so she needs to be in good health. Bizarre.

Flash tipping the sword to WW, why? She did nothing with it here. I think she sliced a parademon with it in the original. Some of Barry's dialogue also seemed like it was trying too hard to push the socially awkward angle.

Final thoughts-The DCEU has moved on. You can see how in the films that have followed JL like Aquaman and Shazam. The fact that WW can't fly in this film where she could back in 1984 is just a simple inconsistency that proves the filmmakers want to move on as well. Also, an evil Superman story has been done to death and only strengthens my view that Snyder just can't come to grips with Superman as a character. I'm glad the Snyder cut exists. Even though my dislikes are the majority of this post, I liked it a fair amount. My only fear is that WB will give Snyder the helm of the DCEU again without understanding that audiences won't like every JL film to be 4 hours.

This had to be 4 hours, not because of Snyder, but because of the studio not giving characters their solo movies. You can see in Whedon cut that Cyborg and Flash needed their origin movies so that we knew who they were going into JL. Without their characters are just there. As you noted, Cyborg is pretty much at the heart of this film now. It was on the studio to cram so much into so little time because they were desperate to get to that avengers money. And thats where the problem will always be. Regardless of tone, the Marvel movies showed how to slow drip a big bad while giving central characters their time to shine so that when the time came the movie was all about the fight, and not still trying to introduce important characters and their motivations.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

What I want to know is who are the masochists among us that watched this in its entirety in one sitting?

SHOW YOURSELVES.

Me, twice actually , 2nd time I was also playing Football Manager to be fair.

 

[SalfordRed18]

What I want to know is who are the masochists among us that watched this in its entirety in one sitting?

SHOW YOURSELVES.

I did and got a headache.

 

[Rustyspider13]

This had to be 4 hours, not because of Snyder, but because of the studio not giving characters their solo movies. You can see in Whedon cut that Cyborg and Flash needed their origin movies so that we knew who they were going into JL. Without their characters are just there. As you noted, Cyborg is pretty much at the heart of this film now. It was on the studio to cram so much into so little time because they were desperate to get to that avengers money. And thats where the problem will always be. Regardless of tone, the Marvel movies showed how to slow drip a big bad while giving central characters their time to shine so that when the time came the movie was all about the fight, and not still trying to introduce important characters and their motivations.

I agree that the studio heads at WB don't have any idea what to do with DC besides more Batman, but Snyder can't be absolved of all the decisions made in the film that led to it being so long. Things like the beginning heroics of WW, the amazons v Steppenwolf fight, Darkseid getting beaten (btw who thought it'd be a good idea to show Darkseid losing in his first appearance on film?), Silas getting killed (I think Cyborg, a young hero with a supportive parent could've been an interesting contrast to the loners like Bruce and Diana) etc. could've been edited down or cut entirely.

Heck, even the new Knightmare scenario could've been left out. Joker being an important part to reverse the timeline is hilarious to me, but I concede that any idea can be justified with good execution. I think even Snyder knows this and if he were to make this film in 2017, even with the carte blanche he was afforded this time, he wouldn't make it 4 hours. He knew this was his last shot so he put it all up there knowing people will forgive a lot due to the format and looking at reviews, it worked.

 

[Sweet Square]

Based on what I've read assume there were to be five parts for the whole story (Inc bvs where the story began) and JL was gonna be a trilogy as part of it with one more movie (probably a Superman or Batman one having a link too to the visions). Maybe flash at the end to reset it

But yeah five part trilogy heh

I wonder if the reason Synder was picked to do the DC universe thing was partly because he was easy to get and was one of the few ''big'' directors willingly to commit a large chuck on his career to the project.

Really seems a never ending project.

 

[Dirty Schwein]

Marvel characters fought many of Thanos' minions and scraped through just about. It made the arrival of Thanos even more scary and when he turned up, you really did feel like he was an actual threat to the heroes.

Darkseid has already been defeated by a group that didn't include Supes, Batman, Cyborg, Wonder Woman, Flash etc. Are we meant to believe this guy to be a threat?

I want DC to just make stand alone films/series of films like Joker and Dark Knight. That's where they tend to shine.

Then eventually use Flashpoint to have them meet up.