Jurgen Klopp Sack Watch

RedCurry said:
Like you said Klopp took the club to the last place in the table. He was going to get fired regardless. Firing him in the middle of the season would probably mean that no decent coach would be available. Klopp is good enough to recover from relegation, obviously. Season was a write off. BVB made the sensible choice of keeping him when no good could really come from letting him go mid season. At the end of the season though, he grossly under performed and he would've been let go. There is no need to get so emotionally disturbed about it.
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RedCurry said:
I'll believe a simple fact that managers at the start of the season have targets and when they don't meet them, they are usually let go. Some clubs sack, other do a mutual understanding and in Klopp's case, it was his resignation. Of course I could be completely off.
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You are just applying generic football wisdom to a situation you seem to know nothing specific about.

The relationship that developed between Klopp and the club during his time there was much more than the usual "deliver results or get replaced". Much more. He surely wouldn't have been dismissed, just like Arsene Wenger or SAF wouldn't have gotten fired by their clubs after a severe crisis. Especially after the turnaround of the second half of the season (regarding points, Dortmund was almost on par with Leverkusen and Bayern during that period and reached the Cup final).

I'm sure you won't believe it, but frankly, you can't have followed much more than the matches themselves, let alone Dortmund's history since 2005/2008.
 
RedCurry said:
No you're right, I should've stopped replying on this thread because obviously the fanboyism here is strong. So I will now.
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Glad to see you're not gonna address your backpedaling, going from "they sacked him" to "he left". I expected nothing less. The hail mary assumption ("He was going to get fired regardless") is the coup de grâce in a flawless, well constructed and fact based argument.
 
PickledRed said:
Genuinely, do people not get that it's the team he manages that gets on people's nerves?
Benitez
Dalglish
Rodgers
Klopp

All largely disliked by United fans. Four very different characters with distinct approaches but with one significant thing in common. It's fine, I get it. It's sane to did like a rival manager. But the lengths some go to to rationalise why these men aren't their cup of tea is amusing. Creating narratives about what's wrong with them - as if who they manage isn't the issue.

We've arrived at Klopp and the angle being taken is his gregarious and demonstrative nature which is regarded as disingenuous despite it being a pretty consistent behaviour trait his whole career. With a Rodgers it was his two-armed celebrations and verbosity in press conferences. There's always a good reason to dismantle these guys' characters...

But the truth is that the only genuine thing that gets people on here is who he manages. Unless, of course, these same people were offering the same commentary during his time in Germany.

Nope, it's who he manages. End of. Accept it. Hate but at least be honest why.
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We loved Brendan :nono:
 
unitedbhoy said:
Going by his sideline reactions to certain things, he's very hard to like if you're not a Liverpool fan, and almost impossible to like as a United fan.
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tbh the feeling I get is that most neutral fans like him, he's probably the most popular manager in the premiership.
 
RedCurry said:
The whole "Klopp resigned and didn't get fired" thing is a bit pedantic. He was utterly out of his depth in his final season and any club with even modest ambition would have fired him had he not resigned. Him resigning would probably mean BVB didn't have to pay him off and Klopp saved face, worked for both sides.
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He took Dortmund to two Bundesliga titles, a CL final and a DFB cup amongst other things, they would not have terminated his contract based on one poor half in a season, particularly after the second half they had which showed that he wasn't out of his depth at all.
 
Anyone who doesn't think Klopp is a Showboating Bellend should be ban-hammered, imo. Tricky for the LFC supporters who post here possibly, but there we are.
 
As a United fan I quite like Dalglish - yeah he made a tit of himself over Suarez but there was an old school appeal to him being in charge of Liverpool. I'm not sure what Klopp has done at Liverpool to warrant such adulation, if anything his sides are a little naive. He doesn't display the nous of a Mourinho or Pep to control games from start to finish and seems a little too gung ho, it's fun to watch but Liverpool finished a miserable eighth last season. There seems to be a lot of support for him from German posters which is fair enough - but I can't help but feel there is a worry that his inevitable flop in the PL will hit a nerve with the reputation of the Bundesliga.
 
Red Ryan said:
As a United fan I quite like Dalglish - yeah he made a tit of himself over Suarez but there was an old school appeal to him being in charge of Liverpool. I'm not sure what Klopp has done at Liverpool to warrant such adulation, if anything his sides are a little naive. He doesn't display the nous of a Mourinho or Pep to control games from start to finish and seems a little too gung ho, it's fun to watch but Liverpool finished a miserable eighth last season. There seems to be a lot of support for him from German posters which is fair enough - but I can't help but feel there is a worry that his inevitable flop in the PL will hit a nerve with the reputation of the Bundesliga.
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Can't judge him yet properly until after this season. He is only just getting a chance to bring in players he actually wants.
If you saw the list of the number that have left you would realise there is a massive squad re-building programme going on.
 
johnny boy said:
Can't judge him yet properly until after this season. He is only just getting a chance to bring in players he actually wants.
If you saw the list of the number that have left you would realise there is a massive squad re-building programme going on.
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Yeah I am being a bit harsh in fairness.
 
The scary thing back then was more the fact, that obviously Watzke and Susi would have never sacked him despite whats was going on on the pitch. We love Klopp and will always admire him, his wise decision to leave was the last genius move he made while we shared this fairytale of the 7 years with him and our development.
 
.Rossi said:
Convinced he'll bring out Yoko Ono or one of The La's at a presser this season
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Or, God forbid, he does one of those really shit scripted videos with the club where he pretends to know who Yosser Hughes was, that sort of thing.
 
johnny boy said:
Can't judge him yet properly until after this season. He is only just getting a chance to bring in players he actually wants.
If you saw the list of the number that have left you would realise there is a massive squad re-building programme going on.
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It's the same as last season and smaller than the seasons before?
 
Snow said:
It's the same as last season and smaller than the seasons before?
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Probably yes, we seem to be in this situation every year. That said loads have left so far, not just first team squad players.

I suspect from future transfer windows we hopefully will have a more settled squad with a small number incoming and outgoing, the way ideally it should be.

We seem to just spend an eternity trying to recover from previous mistakes.
 
johnny boy said:
Dunno I have since edited my post - not exactly sure what I am trying to say anymore....
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Its OK, I am just taking the p*ss out of those who seem to think that getting teams from outside the top 4 to the top of the league think it can be done with a manager change and buying one or two players, ignoring that many of the other teams have stable squads and all teams are also improving. It takes time, money and the right resources.

Klopp will not have a better opportunity of getting top 4 because he has fewer competitions this year. If he doesn't make it this year, with Europe the season after, he may find it even harder to get there. Can't believe United, City and Chelsea will not invest heavily next year. Then you have Arsenal and Spurs. He has quite a bit of work to do.
 
SalfordRed1960 said:
Its OK, I am just taking the p*ss out of those who seem to think that getting teams from outside the top 4 to the top of the league think it can be done with a manager change and buying one or two players, ignoring that many of the other teams have stable squads and all teams are also improving. It takes time, money and the right resources.

Klopp will not have a better opportunity of getting top 4 because he has fewer competitions this year. If he doesn't make it this year, with Europe the season after, he may find it even harder to get there. Can't believe United, City and Chelsea will not invest heavily next year. Then you have Arsenal and Spurs. He has quite a bit of work to do.
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yeah - ideally it would be nice to bring in a couple of quality players to supplement what we already have. Problem has been we have always been in a situation of having to move on other players, Carroll, Balotelli, Benteke and more , who haven't necessarily fitted into the way we play. And I guess a fair few should never have been bought in the first place.
And others like Lovren - who have taken a long while to settle.

I am hoping that particularly the outgoings will mean there is less work to be done next summer and that Klopp can put his stamp on the squad to a degree there won't be a need for wholesale changes.

Of course what you say is right also, everyone buys new players also - problem is we always seem to have many we need to get rid of, hopefully future windows will be more settled.
 
SalfordRed1960 said:
Its OK, I am just taking the p*ss out of those who seem to think that getting teams from outside the top 4 to the top of the league think it can be done with a manager change and buying one or two players, ignoring that many of the other teams have stable squads and all teams are also improving. It takes time, money and the right resources.

Klopp will not have a better opportunity of getting top 4 because he has fewer competitions this year. If he doesn't make it this year, with Europe the season after, he may find it even harder to get there. Can't believe United, City and Chelsea will not invest heavily next year. Then you have Arsenal and Spurs. He has quite a bit of work to do.
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And they haven't this year?
 
ShadesOfTomato said:
And they haven't this year?
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Context is amazing.

Chelsea and Liverpool have less games this year gives them a hell of an advantage. But if they miss out this year, then I can only see them falling further behind unless they make significant investment. We are unlikely to have a season where 4 of the top 7 sides decide to have a meh season, like last year.

City under performed last year and have got stronger over the summer. Arsenal and Spurs are stable, but could still get stronger.

United have had 3 years of 4 or 5 players coming in, hardly a stable environment. It takes time, quite sure by end of the year Jose will know what else he needs, and he will have to make a decision on the older players. So it may take another 4 or 5 players next year to have the right balance of old, experienced and young. Love to get in Muppet mode and become rawkish and say "this is our year", but I wouldn't put money on it. If Liverpool fans think it is there year, yet again, I feel for them as I think they are going to find out very soon, they have a long season ahead.
 
SalfordRed1960 said:
Context is amazing.

Chelsea and Liverpool have less games this year gives them a hell of an advantage. But if they miss out this year, then I can only see them falling further behind unless they make significant investment. We are unlikely to have a season where 4 of the top 7 sides decide to have a meh season, like last year.

City under performed last year and have got stronger over the summer. Arsenal and Spurs are stable, but could still get stronger.

United have had 3 years of 4 or 5 players coming in, hardly a stable environment. It takes time, quite sure by end of the year Jose will know what else he needs, and he will have to make a decision on the older players. So it may take another 4 or 5 players next year to have the right balance of old, experienced and young. Love to get in Muppet mode and become rawkish and say "this is our year", but I wouldn't put money on it. If Liverpool fans think it is there year, yet again, I feel for them as I think they are going to find out very soon, they have a long season ahead.
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All of this is applicable every year. Same old cliches.
 
Klopps tactics are at their peak when his teams are allowed to transition. Small teams are more compact so it is harder to do. When Klopp plays teams like City and Arsenal, they are teams that almost always take the initiative with the ball so Klopps counter pressing is most effective then. Look at the big wins he had last year.

In his final few years in Bvb, especially after his last league win in the 11/12 season, bvb struggled in the league because teams started respecting them and getting tighter, compressing the spaces between the lines. In their CL run, they faced teams that were meant to be 'bigger' especially in the group stage, City, Madrid etc and even Ajax because of the way de Boers set up. They were all there for the killing as the onus was on them to initiate the play. It's no surprise that the team he struggled against the most in his best run was Malaga as pellegrini made them very compact although BvB were guilty of missing a few good chances.

Didn't you ever wonder why they topped the group in Klopps final season there despite being awful in the league? Then they faced Juventus who let them take the initiate the play and they got defeated soundly. The spacing between his CMs when teams sit back sometimes is embarrassing to watch in some games. At points in his final season his CMs were in a straight line when the cb had the ball. So the team could not circulate the ball properly from the back and this lead to a lot of issues. How are you supposed to build up and circulate the ball effectively. Look at the Spacing again last year when they faced Sevilla.
 
@totaalvoetball
Yes, buildup was a huge issue in his final season, but I think it was at least partially due to personell issues. Gündogan was completely out of shape that season and Bender, Kehl simply weren't suited midfielders for dominant football in that role.
Things actually looked a lot better structured when he fielded Sahin as sort of a DLP (especially next to Gündogan), but unfortunately the Turk was injured for almost the entire season. Afaik they also already worked towards signing Weigl before Klopp resigned, so it's not unreasonable to think that things might have improved even if he had stayed.

Not sure about his time at Liverpool, haven't seen enough full matches to judge that.
 
do.ob said:
@totaalvoetball
Yes, buildup was a huge issue in his final season, but I think it was at least partially due to personell issues. Gündogan was completely out of shape that season and Bender, Kehl simply weren't suited midfielders for dominant football in that role.
Things actually looked a lot better structured when he fielded Sahin as sort of a DLP (especially next to Gündogan), but unfortunately the Turk was injured for almost the entire season. Afaik they also already worked towards signing Weigl before Klopp resigned, so it's not unreasonable to think that things might have improved had he stayed.

Not sure about his time at Liverpool, haven't seen enough full matches to judge that.
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I agree the injuries didn't help, but the positioning of the players that occured match after match leads me to believe it was a coaching issue, if it was never fixed. My point on the transitions still stand, his teams struggle against teams that compress the lines which is why I think he might struggle against teams in the EPL, then again, the EPL is just very disorganised so they might not adjust for a long time. Mourinho also has this same problem, whcih is why his teams implode after 2-3 years as the leagues usually adjust. Happened in Madrid and Chelsea 2 times.

I'm Guessing you are a Dortmund fan? How are you finding Tuchel? He is one of the best proponents of the positional game in Europe at the moment. I am also looking forward to Sampaoli at Sevilla.
 
Thanks to all these German and Dutch supporters for their insights into Klopp at BVB. Interesting stuff.
 
Burnley 2:0 Liverpool
Dear God. Dear Lord. I bleated on for a year that Gerrard needs to be dropped if Rodgers is to flower as a manager. But Rodgers had something in his eye and didn't see this. Fired.

I said last season Couinho, Firmino and Lallana is one of the most uninspiring forward line ups if not played with Origi up front. At the very least. Even then never, ever play those three unless the opposition team is not top 4. Now Klopp has something in his eye and couldn't see this for nearly 12 months.

If Origi comes on to save Klopp's bacon in the second half, I'm still deflated by any Klopp fever I might have had. I know its only the second game (beaten Barca, Arsenal, blahdiblahdiblah) but these are the moments that define you. Dalglish, Rodgers and now Klopp. I'm seeing a sad pattern developing here. Saw a bit of it last season but kept schtum as it was his 'first' half season. Hey ho.
 
Dumbstar said:
Dear God. Dear Lord. I bleated on for a year that Gerrard needs to be dropped if Rodgers is to flower as a manager. But Rodgers had something in his eye and didn't see this. Fired.

I said last season Couinho, Firmino and Lallana is one of the most uninspiring forward line ups if not played with Origi up front. At the very least. Even then never, ever play those three unless the opposition team is not top 4. Now Klopp has something in his eye and couldn't see this for nearly 12 months.

If Origi comes on to save Klopp's bacon in the second half, I'm still deflated by any Klopp fever I might have had. I know its only the second game (beaten Barca, Arsenal, blahdiblahdiblah) but these are the moments that define you. Dalglish, Rodgers and now Klopp. I'm seeing a sad pattern developing here. Saw a bit of it last season but kept schtum as it was his 'first' half season. Hey ho.
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I like LFC. They please me.
 
Liverpool under Klopp haven't been any better than under Brendan. Still can't defend. Score and play really well on occasion then go and get beat off some relegation side. His transfers bar Mane this summer haven't added anything they didn't have. (maybe unfair on Karius as he hasn't played yet).
 
Dumbstar said:
Dear God. Dear Lord. I bleated on for a year that Gerrard needs to be dropped if Rodgers is to flower as a manager. But Rodgers had something in his eye and didn't see this. Fired.

I said last season Couinho, Firmino and Lallana is one of the most uninspiring forward line ups if not played with Origi up front. At the very least. Even then never, ever play those three unless the opposition team is not top 4. Now Klopp has something in his eye and couldn't see this for nearly 12 months.

If Origi comes on to save Klopp's bacon in the second half, I'm still deflated by any Klopp fever I might have had. I know its only the second game (beaten Barca, Arsenal, blahdiblahdiblah) but these are the moments that define you. Dalglish, Rodgers and now Klopp. I'm seeing a sad pattern developing here. Saw a bit of it last season but kept schtum as it was his 'first' half season. Hey ho.
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Changing managers, even attaining a manager like Klopp simply means very little if you continue to do the business you're doing in the summer window. It's been an ongoing theme for years.
 
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