Jurgen Klopp Sack Watch

It's a (positively spun) camouflage figure that maybe actually hides a lack of ambition.

Compare just the actual spending that actually plays to obtain the comparison of the degrees of achievement by the Managers at different clubs at the same time.

My Cup Final team cost £ 20 M - yours cost £ 200 M. Yes, that's impressive.

How do tonight's line-ups compare? You can't just take £ 170 M off because Coutinho isn't there can you?

Sort of true. When we didn't spend in last 2000s, ManUtd fans didn't go on and on about net spend, we all were having a go at owners and even SAF for not spending and improving the quality of the squad.

For some reason having low net spend is becoming some sort of thing to celebrate.
 
Net spend alone is definitely flawed, but if you take team quality at a given time into consideration, it's a pretty good indicator of how well a club operated since then. Take City for example, they HAD to have a huge net spend after their takeover since their team consisted of very average footballers and in order to build a huge team, you will need to spend a lot.

In the case of United, your squad was probably the fourth or fifth strength wise (above Liverpool and maybe Arsenal), thus in order to close the gap to City and Spurs (who arguably had the best squads back then), you had to invest a lot and thus have a big net spend in order to even be able to compete for the title (bar some freak season like Leicester had for example). City arguably had the strongest or second strongest squad back then already, they spent even more and are winning the title by a countrymile by being by far the "best" team in the league with the best squad. Spurs barely spent anything and are still doing quite well, their squad was already strong/young enough and they lacked the funds too. Liverpool arguably made the largest progress in those years though, their squad was the worst, all their star players now have either tremendously improved (Firmino, Coutinho) or have been bought for not that much comparably (Salah, Mané). They lost their star player Coutinho and replaced him with VVD and Ox who are doing okay even for their price tags, and I doubt that their wage bills have risen too much. I honestly think that bar Arsenal every top 6 club has been doing quite well within their ambitions and financial possibilities.
 
Ofcourse it helps when you don't have to sell players but what time period are you going to consider? 2 years? 5 years? See Madrid to see how that argument falls flat.

For example, post SAF most ManUtd players retired and then were released, so obviously ManUtd had to spend without selling any player as they didn't have that sort of player. So is this even considered when people starts with Net spend argument?

Again coming to time frame, what time frame do you think gives proper results? Why only 5 years when that's the time ManUtd had to spend, why not last 10 years where ManUtd gained 80 million for Ronaldo?

So we agree it helps. And so it's not an unimportant metric?

Time frame varies depending on context. Madrid didn't have to spend again because of their high initial outlay, which a side like Liverpool would never have been able to afford in the first place.

It's a (positively spun) camouflage figure that maybe actually hides a lack of ambition.

Compare just the actual spending that actually plays to obtain the comparison of the degrees of achievement by the Managers at different clubs at the same time.

My Cup Final team cost £ 20 M - yours cost £ 200 M. Yes, that's impressive.

How do tonight's line-ups compare? You can't just take £ 170 M off because Coutinho isn't there can you?

It's not an exact science and can be manipulated, of course. Context is important. But it's very relevant for clubs like LFC or Tottenham and the fact they often have had to fund their expenditure through player sales is a disadvantage.

Even tonight, City will have a star studded bench and were able to rest Aguero on the weekend whilst still putting out a quality first 11. We will have a bunch of youngsters in comparison and compromised hugely on quality against Everton, as we have a smaller squad and dearth of depth in comparison. The advantage is clear.

Why? Because we do not have as many resources (players) accumulated. Why is that? Because we cannot afford to, and that's reflected in our net spend amount.
 
After they went 1-0 down. Before then they'd had little problem playing through the press and were starting to put real pressure on the liverpool defence

Didn't look comical before the goal, while Sane was looking very dangerous down the left flank and liverpool were struggling to contain city down that side. Sane started looking comical after he gifted liverpool their first goal and then blew a colossal chance to equalize 1 minute later...

We agree on that. We disagree on how and what he got wrong. Tactics weren't the problem, players' mentality was. Tactics only became a probem after the game turned against them, and agan the issue was one of execution which was affected by poor mentality more than an issue of personnel
Apologies for butting in, but your first paragraph there, you do realize Liverpool were 3-0 up by 30 minutes played? The goals came after 12, 20, and 30 mins played. As I recall City only put pressure on pool in the second half, not really producing the key to unlock a rather mediocre defence.
 
So we agree it helps. And so it's not an unimportant metric?

Time frame varies depending on context. Madrid didn't have to spend again because of their high initial outlay, which a side like Liverpool would never have been able to afford in the first place.

It's not an important metric, that's the argument. Not that it's useless to get money for your players.

Time frame varies depending on context or to something that fits arguments?
 
Sort of true. When we didn't spend in last 2000s, ManUtd fans didn't go on and on about net spend, we all were having a go at owners and even SAF for not spending and improving the quality of the squad.

For some reason having low net spend is becoming some sort of thing to celebrate.
What?! That’s literally the only thing this place went on about after the Ronaldo sale. Heck it was the stick that MUST, andersred and co used to beat united with.
 
What?! That’s literally the only thing this place went on about after the Ronaldo sale. Heck it was the stick that MUST, andersred and co used to beat united with.

That's the point I'm making. ManUtd fans didn't pat their backs because we had low net spend.
 
The bottom line to that article is transfer fee is only half the story with wages the other half of a player cost. And player costs is what needs to be looked at rather than net spend or wage spend by themselves alone.
The end is open as in when you look at transfer, you have to take into account the club financial status, playing level and the ambition.

No ambitious club would turn down a quality player on cheap, nor they penny picking and choose much inferior quality if they can afford the quality they want. In long run, if a club become successful, the good and bad balance out eventually. To expect immediate result is knee jerk as clubs don't spend huge transfer fee for one year contract
 
I love Kloppo. His innocent attacking football reminds me about United 04-07. Of course after Milan defeat Fergie had mastered the art of defence from Italian and brought us Champions League cup which is amazing but those previous years were still some real fun to watch
 
So we agree it helps. And so it's not an unimportant metric?

Time frame varies depending on context. Madrid didn't have to spend again because of their high initial outlay, which a side like Liverpool would never have been able to afford in the first place.



It's not an exact science and can be manipulated, of course. Context is important. But it's very relevant for clubs like LFC or Tottenham and the fact they often have had to fund their expenditure through player sales is a disadvantage.

Even tonight, City will have a star studded bench and were able to rest Aguero on the weekend whilst still putting out a quality first 11. We will have a bunch of youngsters in comparison and compromised hugely on quality against Everton, as we have a smaller squad and dearth of depth in comparison. The advantage is clear.

Why? Because we do not have as many resources (players) accumulated. Why is that? Because we cannot afford to, and that's reflected in our net spend amount.

Emboldened-wise therefore:

1 - if you want to know what your owners are up to, maybe

2 - I did just look at this with vague estimates in mind & the contrast is clear - but I don't need to know about Coutinho's change in value from not much to £ 150 M because VVD has arrived from those proceeds. The value of what goes on the park & next few players does show what you want to know about how well you're doing compared to them. And has an historical background, not everybody arrived this month so they count less because they represent smaller fees & home-grown are a zero. Why do you need anything else to run a finance / performance comparison.

Including Coutinho in some way blurs the issue being looked at in 2 - it doesn't help to clarify it.

If I include Coutinho looking at this season as a whole - he counts in for what you originally bought him for obviously. Not the sale price. The spend on tonight's team or this season's average line-up is the spend on the team - it doesn't reduce down to £ 20 M because of the last 5 years income from sales, does it? Unless I'm missing something.

Team value will calculate out lower if replacements have been cheaper - which remarkably it does for you, I don't see why it should get thrown in twice, I could say.
 
Apologies for butting in, but your first paragraph there, you do realize Liverpool were 3-0 up by 30 minutes played? The goals came after 12, 20, and 30 mins played. As I recall City only put pressure on pool in the second half, not really producing the key to unlock a rather mediocre defence.
Yes i do. I also watched city camp into liverpool's half and look increasingly more threatening in those first 12 minutes of the game. Then liverpool scored and city started to fold. Then they scored the second and city collapsed.

Point is tactics had very little to do with liverpool going 2-0 up. So to say Guardiola got his tactics wrong and that's why City got smashed is simply wrong. Now, criticize Guardiola's second half lineup and tactics all you want. That, we can talk about
 
I don't buy his dismissal. Yes, wages are a significant part of the equation, along with amortization, but I don't see why net spend can't be used as a first order approximation to compare clubs' financial outlays. Especially when it's been proven that the figure is correlated with actual results on the field.
Because it's not. Again, wage bill is directly correlated to results on the field. Net spend far less so, and it is generally also correlated to wage bill. IIRC Liverpool spend 80% of their revenue on the wage bill. Of course their net transfer spend is not going to be very high, because they're already funneling most of their money to pay for the players they already have. That doesn't mean they're cheap, or lacking ambition
 
Well the question for next season will be if Salah can get as many goals as this season. I don’t think he can personally.

Maybe not as many but as you saw for his goal today he now is a deadly finisher with incredible composure. I would move him upfront or with minimal tracking back like Messi.
 
A really mature performance. Can't remember City creating a clear chance after their first goal. The defence has improved massively and TAA has really come of age.

If we can deal with that City onslaught in the first half, we can deal with what the remaining teams have too.
 
A really mature performance. Can't remember City creating a clear chance after their first goal. The defence has improved massively and TAA has really come of age.

If we can deal with that City onslaught in the first half, we can deal with what the remaining teams have too.

All of City’s attacking players were poor tbh. Their CMs bossed the game but the likes of Sane and Sterling just carried on with their wasteful form from recent games.
 
A really mature performance. Can't remember City creating a clear chance after their first goal. The defence has improved massively and TAA has really come of age.

If we can deal with that City onslaught in the first half, we can deal with what the remaining teams have too.

Yeah no clear chances other than hitting the post and having a goal wrongly ruled out as offside. What are you on about? You couldn't deal with Lukaku and Rashford FFS.
 
All of City’s attacking players were poor tbh. Their CMs bossed the game but the likes of Sane and Sterling just carried on with their wasteful form from recent games.

For all of their control, we defended the box very well. It's a sign of progression that we kept our heads after conceding the early goal. That would have seen the team crumble in the recent past.
 
For all of their control, we defended the box very well. It's a sign of progression that we kept our heads after conceding the early goal. That would have seen the team crumble in the recent past.

Kept your heads? You fell to pieces. Got your arses kicked for 45 minutes. Could barely string a couple of passee together. Only a wrongly disallowed goal and the width of a post stopped City clawing back a three goal deficit before half-time. And that was with the Sane, Sterling and Jesus looking as toothless as they’ve looked all season.

You did get your shit together in the second half tbf but it’s hard to know how much of that was City running out of legs. They looked knackered.
 
Liverpool definitely did not keep their heads. They were shitting themselves in the 1st half and got bailed out by poor officiating.

They played well in the 2nd half though, and were by far the better team in the 1st leg. So they deserved to go through.
 
Kept your heads? You fell to pieces. Got your arses kicked for 45 minutes. Could barely string a couple of passee together. Only a wrongly disallowed goal and the width of a post stopped City clawing back a three goal deficit before half-time. And that was with the Sane, Sterling and Jesus looking as toothless as they’ve looked all season.

You did get your shit together in the second half tbf but it’s hard to know how much of that was City running out of legs. They looked knackered.

City dominated the first half, but that was always going to happen at the Etihad. We got the rub of the green but I don't recall Karius having to make a save all game.

Falling to pieces would have been collapsing akin to earlier this season against Sevilla or home to City where we concede 3 goals in ten minutes. Nohing stuck up front in the first half but we remained resolute at the back for the large part - not like they were slicing through us.
 
Nohing stuck up front in the first half but we remained resolute at the back for the large part - not like they were slicing through us.
They were, they just kept messing up the final ball or their forwards didn't attack the right spaces. They still hit the post, had a couple very dangerous situations inside your box, and a perfectly legit goal ruled offside
 
Yeah no clear chances other than hitting the post and having a goal wrongly ruled out as offside. What are you on about? You couldn't deal with Lukaku and Rashford FFS.

I see you still flashing your "We defeated you at OT" trophy in counter to any comment about the performance of Liverpool. How old are you man, like 10? People come here to have discussion and not to listen to a parrot saying "We defeated you at OT" over and over.
 
Over the course of a league or domestic cup campaign, anyone can beat anyone. There is no glory in losing to WBA or Swansea as opposed to Huddersfield/Newcastle or vice versa, so what sort of comparison is this anyway.

Sevilla was a massive feck up, but it happens in the CL. Congratulations to you for (all but) making it to the semis, but there is no guarantee Liverpool won't go out to a similar team like Sevilla in the CL next season. It is no reflection on superiority or inferiority.

Man I understand and share the same thought, I didn't know this thereligion guy is nothing but troll, my comments were in response to BS he has been cooking. My point was simple Man UTD could have done better and I am sure, most of the fans share the same views. I blame Mourinho for the lack of courage, recent wins against Crystal palace and Man city have shown Man UTD is good going forward but Jose was content with not losing instead of winning.
 
They were, they just kept messing up the final ball or their forwards didn't attack the right spaces. They still hit the post, had a couple very dangerous situations inside your box, and a perfectly legit goal ruled offside

Guardiola had some fair complaints to make. The Anfield game would have finished 2-1 and Sane's goal would have stood if the referee had been competent.

Still, he has to blame himself for conceding so many goals, still doesn't know how to beat Liverpool. Drawing Klopp's team in the CL was his kryptonite, maybe he would have fancied his chances with Real or Barca even.
 
I see you still flashing your "We defeated you at OT" trophy in counter to any comment about the performance of Liverpool. How old are you man, like 10? People come here to have discussion and not to listen to a parrot saying "We defeated you at OT" over and over.

Ok. We will ignore the fact that happened then as it doesn't suit your narrative as being the best free flowing attacking side in the world shall we?

The point is valid. You are very beatable when using the right tactics as United showed. City played right into your hands and Pep was too stubborn to try anything different bar his bizzare attempt to silence Salah in the first leg by playing Laporte at full back.

Sorry you don't like the fact United easily brushed you aside.
 
Man I understand and share the same thought, I didn't know this thereligion guy is nothing but troll, my comments were in response to BS he has been cooking. My point was simple Man UTD could have done better and I am sure, most of the fans share the same views. I blame Mourinho for the lack of courage, recent wins against Crystal palace and Man city have shown Man UTD is good going forward but Jose was content with not losing instead of winning.

Yeah I'm about troll. Forget the Liverpool fans like yourself who only appear on a United forum when things go your way.

You'll have to learn that just as you disagree with an opinion doesn't make the person who holds it a troll - especially when what they are saying is a fact.

@ShadesOfTomato was talking nonsense.

1) He claimed City had no clear chances and Liverpool easily coped with City first half.

He seems to have forgot conceedimg a goal in less than two minutes when the world's most expensive defender got flattened by Sterling, Bernardo hitting the post and the referree wrongly ruling out a legit goal. City pulled you apart.

2) He's totally unwilling to highlight any flaws in your play and seems to believe you can withstand whatever European football has to throw at you.

I rightly mentioned you struggle with target men and Lukaku destroyed you, and Lovren, at Old Trafford. Not sure what's more difficult to understand, the facts of what I'm saying or why two Liverpool fans are getting worked up about what's being posted about their club on a Manchester United forum after their biggest European night in years.

Feck me :lol:
 
I was wrong about them. I thought they'd lose in this QF, but full credit to Klopp and Liverpool for an excellent performance.
 
A really mature performance. Can't remember City creating a clear chance after their first goal. The defence has improved massively and TAA has really come of age.

If we can deal with that City onslaught in the first half, we can deal with what the remaining teams have too.

Second half I agree, a more clinical team (or an in City) would have put you in real trouble IMO.
You deserve to go through over two legs but a Bayern or a Real would cause you real issues over two legs IMO. If you lot Get Roma and make it to the final anything can happen.

I don't know how I would cope with Liverpool winning the CL and City winning the League.
 
I'm guessing he made no comments about the big match turning decision that went in their favour last night? Those comments are only reserved for decisions that go in United's favour?
 
Still can't believe we went through 5-1 after winning both games. Wasn't supposed to happen.
 
The only credit he gets from me, that he actually play football with the midfield of Milner Henderson Chamberlain.

That Midfield is actually a joke
 
I'm guessing he made no comments about the big match turning decision that went in their favour last night? Those comments are only reserved for decisions that go in United's favour?
Tbf, he mentioned also that there was some luck involved.
But he could have also complained about the 0-1, which was preceded by a foul on VVD.