Mbappe, Kane, Vini are having such supeiror seasons that he should be a distant 4th at best.
Jude Bellingham | Real Madrid player
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Zidane showed up in big matches in big competitions, so most of those career downsides are forgotten. If Jude can manage the same, the same will likely happen for him, as happened in both of his Barca performances this year. In the first Classico, Gavi had him pocketed until the tail end of the game when he popped up with the two goals. Similarly he popped up with the goal at the end of the last one when his performance otherwise was decent at best. Those are both now hailed as great performances. Unlike Zidane, current Jude also does not have that "take over the game" as the fulcrum of the team thing. He pops in with crucial moments (like Josleu today). It's different.
It's not just games during a season, he's been off it the whole second half of the season, whether through injuries, suspensions, tiredness, tactical tinkering or whatever other reason you can conjure.
Nobody can match the two freaks, but is this new crop even on the level of Neymar, Suarez, Benzema, Lewa in terms of quality/consistency? I think in their best seasons they were cut above whatever the current "bpitw" candidates are serving up. What we're seeing is a recalibration of standards and expectations and it's not just because of Messi and Ronaldo.
Unpopular opinion but I don’t rate him that highly. Atleast not at the level of a Modric. I don’t think he would generational like him. Forget Zidane, that’s just bonkers.
Compare Neymar, Suarez, Benzema and Lewandowski at the same age as Bellingham.
Suarez had just joined Ajax from Gronigen
Lewandowski was playing in the Polish League
Benzema was a bright young prospect at Lyon, who was being hyped up
Neymar was tearing up the Brazilian league at Santos
I'm not saying Bellingham should be winning the Balon D'or *right now*.
But it's a testament to his quality we're comparing the consistency of a guy in his first season when hes not a teenager, in La Liga, against giants of the game at their absolute prime.
He's overrated because what, he's not at the same level of consistency as the absolute giants of the game from the past decade at the age of 20?
Modric aged 20 was playing for Dinamo Zagreb. Zidane at age 20 was a nobody at Bordeaux.
Modric was *pretty good* at Spurs and in his first year at Madrid he was hailed as the worst signing of the season in La Liga.
Why are we saying someone is not "generational" because he's not at the level of some of the greatest ever players at their absolute prime?
Bellingham at his age has been better than every midfielder at the same respective age and cycle of development in the past twenty years. I literally cannot think of another 20 year old midfielder since the turn of the century that has put out performances like this.
Who cares about ages though? Players hit different heights at different times, some peak faster than others. For example Rooney and Owen were doing more impressive things as teenagers.
People keep bringing up his age as if what is being debated is his potential as a prospect. If he were only being compared to Wirtz, Gavi, Pedri, Musiala, Camavinga and Simons then that would be fine, but he is not. It's simply a statement as to why the bpitw shouts might be a bit underwhelming relative to what people have come to expect of players spoken of it that regard; and not just Messi and Ronaldo.
If you want to be spoken of in the rarified air in which he is spoken or as bpitw, it comes with different standards and expectations. He seems to have a good mentality and he is young and can grow into it.
Ditto Fabregas.
Pirlo was at Reggina on loan and was a substitute fringe #10 at Inter
Pogba had a brilliant start at Juve and is probably the closest I can think of
Xavi was a substitute for Barca
Iniesta started quite a few games for Barca aged 20 but had very little output
Alonso just broke through at Real sociedad
Busquets made his debut season for Barca
De Bruyne spent a year on loan at Werder Bremen
Rodri just broke through at Villareal
I'm probably missing a few but seriously, how can someone look at the performances that Bellingham, a 20 year old CM is making and not be excited, especially given that position tends to be peak much later?
Pogba had a brilliant start at Juve and is probably the closest I can think of
Xavi was a substitute for Barca
Iniesta started quite a few games for Barca aged 20 but had very little output
Alonso just broke through at Real sociedad
Busquets made his debut season for Barca
De Bruyne spent a year on loan at Werder Bremen
Rodri just broke through at Villareal
I'm probably missing a few but seriously, how can someone look at the performances that Bellingham, a 20 year old CM is making and not be excited, especially given that position tends to be peak much later?
I understand what you are saying but I’m not comparing them when they were all 20. I remember dele Alli was dogs bollocks at 20 and zidane was a nobody at that age. So I’m not making an age to achievement comparison. I’m just saying that I just don’t think he would turn out to be as good as Modric and Zidane. That’s all. I just don’t rate him that highly.
I don’t think he would develop into a player who could boss a game like them. I could see him becoming a bit like lampard. A goal scoring midfielder who would produce moments every now and then but I don’t see him dominating like Modric or Zidane.
That is one that I missed, he was actually a generational talent who made a terrible career move to be warming the bench for arguably the greatest CM to have ever lived.
His talent really shone through when Barca and Spain kept putting him in random positions on the pitch and he would still do admirably well. He played as a false 9 for Spain and as a RW for Barca at points
Of course it's relevant, when talking about footballers. Players like Rooney and Owen peak early because they rely (or relied, in the case of Rooney, who changed his game quite alot), on being explosive and rapid. Which is easily shown when you are younger.
Bellingham isn't that, players in the style of Bellingham don't tend to peak until their mid to late 20's.
Of course age is relevant when talking about potentially how good someone is, you cannot just assume a talented young player won't improve as they get more and more exposure?
It depends entirely on the game of player he focuses on becoming. He was a fantastic attacking goalscoring midfielder this season because that's where Ancelotti needed him as they didn't have any forwards fit at the start of the season. He was a deep lying playmaker/b2b for Borussia Dortmund and he won Bundesliga player of the year.
If, Ancelotti keeps moving him around for the next 3 seasons (provided ancelotti remains at RM), then he won't fulfill his potential. His best position imo is as a double pivot driving forward from deep, which I think we will see more of next season as Mbappe arrives.
He's not being compared to those players because he's got far more pressure on him than any of those, and he has outshone all of them, some by quite a large margin.
I actually think Wirtz has the potential to be alongside him as the best midfielder of the generation, but performing for a Leverkusen side is very different than being the main man at Real Madrid. Musiala is technically incredible but my god he can be frustrating to watch sometimes, he needs to get better at the basics.
I have an irrational hatred for Gavi as he is the most dirtiest prick i've ever seen player football since Lord Sergio Busquets and honestly, I think Pedri has been ruined. Making a 17 year old play 70+ games a season is mental and his body has been repeatedly broken.
Is there any point in comparing Camavinga to Bellingham when they are on the same team and one is the star man of the team and the other sits warming the bench?
He has some outstanding qualities for his age which you don’t see in players when they are 20. His confidence, his late runs, eye for goals, his understanding of the game and most of all his maturity level. But I don’t see the vision the passing the technical proficiency in him some of the greats like Zidane possessed even when they were young. I’m not trying to downplay him don’t get me wrong. He’s a fantastic young player who I rate just not that highly.
Yeah...that's the point. He is not being compared to "potential" players, he is being compared to players and spoken of as if he has already arrived and that entails a different set of standards.
So we can we all agree that he clearly stands out from all the other midfielders of his generation but hasn't reached the peak of the previous generations absolute best?
When did Zidane dominate at club level? Not a trick question, but seems like he was more of a moments player for Juventus/Madrid
Young Zidane was a completely different player.
His transition to a playmaking number 8/10 was only when he reached his mid 20's.
At Bordeaux he often played wide, interchanging with Duggory and Tholot as fowards too. He was good but not great in that role, as his physicality, and passing range never got the chance to shine. He also wasn't the quickest.
You can imagine him being the inverse Schweinsteiger, with Schweini starting off as good but not great wide left midfielder to a world class deep lying midfielder. Zidane transitioned to someone who spent a lot of time on the left to way more centrally as his career progressed.
Actually, now that I think about it, think of it as a Ryan Giggs post 30's shift.
I don't think he is clearly better than Wirtz right now and didn't think that when they were in the same Bundesliga.
Florian Wirtz needs to prove himself at the biggest stage. Winning Bundesliga with Leverkusen is a great first step but the pressure, expectations and mental demands are very different when playing for Leverkusen as it is playing for Real Madrid. I don't think he's going to remain at Leverkusen for that long to be honest. Has he even played in the Champions league yet?
But at Real Madrid you also have players like Vini, Rodrygo, Modric, Kroos to come through in "big pressure" moments when you're off it. You can't act like Jude is carrying the weight of the whole team on his shoulders. I don't think he is clearly better than Wirtz at the moment.
But at the first half of the season he did - he scored so many braces/goals for Madrid that were the difference. I've lost count of the number of winners/ 90+ x minute winners or crucial equalizers he scored in the first half of the season when the entire team were performing like crap.
Modric/Kroos were rotating being benched and Vini and Rodrygo simply were not firing.
A half season is not enough to separate him from Wirtz IMO, especially when you are making a point about the pressure of the big stage and it's not the business end of the season.
Zidane was a moments player? So Zidane is considered one of the best midfielders of all time because of moments? I thought moments player is a player like Rashford. Zidane was outstanding for Juve when Serie was by far the best league. You know that. Getting accolades left right and center from the get go winning multiple individual awards. Was there any better midfielder than him during that timespan in Italy? Enlighten me.
As one of the greatest Zidane fanboys out there, he was absolutely ghosting through league games at times, when he did absolutely nothing.
Both in Serie A and in La Liga. Like, I mean legit ghosting. You wouldn't realize he was on the pitch for 15 minutes. He wouldn't do anything stupid like lose the ball on the halfway line or do a stupid hollywood 60 yarder, but he wouldn't do much positive either. He was very passive when he decided that that match wasn't worth his time or energy.
In the 98-99 season, the same year he won the Balon D'or (for his huge performances for France, mainly), Del Piero got injured for 85% of the season. Zidane became THE man at Juventus. The entire season, including Europe, he scored 2 goals and made 7 assists, 4 of which can in the group stages of the UCL.
Juve finished 7th.
He was so meh that got dropped at the end of the season.
So why is Zizou is considered one of the greatest midfielders to play the game? And what was so great about him? As he was ghosting so much so just moments? Im curious now.
So how did Zidane became a great? And why he is considered so highly? As I’m learning that he was so meh at club level.
Because in some of the biggest occasions, in some of the biggest games against some of the greatest opponents, he was a fecking titan. His peak was just absolute madness, but his peak usually only turned up at critical games in big tournaments.
It's not like Rashford where he scores a banger every now and then.
When Zidane showed up, all an opposite team can do is just kick him and hopefully he gets injured or try and wind him up to get him sent off (which happened alot of times).
In those games, with the world watching, he would dribble through 3 players like they were not there inside his own half, ping a 50 yard ball to the forward with perfection and then casually jog up the pitch to receive it back 6 seconds later, do a marseille roulette leaving 2 defenders for dead before putting in the perfect through ball tearing apart the opposition defense in a space of about 15 seconds from start to finish.
He rarely did that in league games, he just showed up in CL knockout rounds against the giants and for France in tournaments.
And that’s the level I think Bellingham can never ever reach. That was my initial point. Thank you.
examples of these games from my post above
This Brazil team had Lucio, Roberto Carlos, Cafu, Ze Roberto, Gilberto silva, Ronaldinho, Ronaldo, Kaka, Juninho
And Zidane made them all look like they didnt belong on the same pitch as him. and this was at the very end of his career
Okay, but nobody ever suggested he could reach Zidane's absolute peak. Zidane's absolute peak is Messi levels of ridiculous. The difference is Messi did it week in week out.
Would you rather have a player who performed at a very high level over an entire season (Modric) vs someone who couldn't be arsed for half of it but turned up more often than not with blinding performances when it mattered the most (Zidane.)
I'm not so sure.
Bellingham's consistency so far for the past 18 months is honestly a longer period of high performance play than Zidane ever managed to stretch out.
Bellingham's ability over a season is not good enough yet to offset Zidane's absolute wizardry in big games but let's see in a few years.
I have great memories of this match and I was in awe of him making mockery of the whole Brazil team. He played deeper in midfield and they couldn’t get near him. This was some God level stuff from him which I don’t think Bellingham is capable of.
Well yeah, but as I said above, like who other than Messi could produce this level of ability at their very peak? Ronaldinho?
That 2006 game is one of the most overrated performances of all time. That Brazil team only had four players that cared about defense. Not many creative midfielders had as much freedom in their careers and he didn't produced that much to be honest, although it was nice to watch.
Hazard's game against us, in 2018, is an example of a similar performance(not very incisive, but great at retaining the ball and opening spaces for others) but better.
Hazard's game against us, in 2018, is an example of a similar performance(not very incisive, but great at retaining the ball and opening spaces for others) but better.
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I think there's a particular confusion revolving around how to categorise Bellingham because his season has been a real anomaly. His first third to half was not only of all-time standard, but the best of them in those positions - had that vein continued throughout the season, we'd be talking of a season for the ages and something groundbreaking in the modern era.
Since that period concluded, he's ranged from world class to good to underwhelming at points, and if you take his season as a whole, the extrapolation points of the above paragraph absolutely tanked, so if he were being held to the scrutiny of that level of performance, he's gone well off the boil for whatever reason be it a purple patch, fatigue, burn out etc.
Those who have watched him avidly for all games of this campaign can better determine a number, but from the outside in, I'd go with 10/10 for his initial period and around a 6/10 for the latter, which brings him to a solid 8/10 for the campaign thus far. 8/10 is very good, but it isn't the 9's and 10's associated with Ballon winning or being spoken of in outright terms as absolutely one of the best on the planet.
What seems to be happening in terms of expectation is that people are tuning in to see this 10/10 player who has all the hype and gravitas behind his campaign and are being presented with a 6/10, 7/10 or8/10 player, which is not going to leave the desired impression. There's still a CL final and a full Euros campaign to go, so nothing is set in stone yet, but it's looking less likely now that he'll be shortlisted for the Ballon d'Or now opposed to earlier in the season when he was the first or second name that should be in contention for the award.
I'd also say age only becomes a factor again when the player falls back down to the earth realm, where we can and should say 'but, he's only <insert age> years old'; whilst transcendent, age isn't spoken of as the hindrance it usually is. Nobody pulls an age card as a problem when prodigies are doing their thing - it may be spoken of in terms of being extraordinary, but never problematic unless they are being overplayed. Just a couple of years ago, Pedri was seen as one of the best midfielders on the planet outright with the only issue his age provided was the real risk of being ruined if not handled better (bravo Barca...).
Since that period concluded, he's ranged from world class to good to underwhelming at points, and if you take his season as a whole, the extrapolation points of the above paragraph absolutely tanked, so if he were being held to the scrutiny of that level of performance, he's gone well off the boil for whatever reason be it a purple patch, fatigue, burn out etc.
Those who have watched him avidly for all games of this campaign can better determine a number, but from the outside in, I'd go with 10/10 for his initial period and around a 6/10 for the latter, which brings him to a solid 8/10 for the campaign thus far. 8/10 is very good, but it isn't the 9's and 10's associated with Ballon winning or being spoken of in outright terms as absolutely one of the best on the planet.
What seems to be happening in terms of expectation is that people are tuning in to see this 10/10 player who has all the hype and gravitas behind his campaign and are being presented with a 6/10, 7/10 or
I'd also say age only becomes a factor again when the player falls back down to the earth realm, where we can and should say 'but, he's only <insert age> years old'; whilst transcendent, age isn't spoken of as the hindrance it usually is. Nobody pulls an age card as a problem when prodigies are doing their thing - it may be spoken of in terms of being extraordinary, but never problematic unless they are being overplayed. Just a couple of years ago, Pedri was seen as one of the best midfielders on the planet outright with the only issue his age provided was the real risk of being ruined if not handled better (bravo Barca...).
First and foremost I don’t agree with your assessment of Zidane at all. You make it sound like he only turned in a handful of matches and he was garbage the rest of the season.
And secondly, If you know your football and if you have watched that era, you would know how football was played and what players like Pirlo, Scholes, Zidane etc game was all about. It was never about impacting the game directly with their goals and assists every game. The genius of the player used to be decided on their skills, intelligence, technique and vision. How superior you look against other amazing players from other clubs etc and if you can top that off with big game ability and big moments then it distinguishes you from a genius to a great.
Zidane normal game was never rubbish or ghosting bar few which is normal over the course of the season. Yes, he might not be outstanding every game and was rather ordinary in many matches but that’s a midfielder for you. And even an ordinary game of Zidane in today’s era would look a 7or 8 every single time. The technical proficiency alone would stand out, heads and shoulders above everyone.
How was that Brazil team any difference to 2002 other than some of the players were somewhat older?
You had 4 at the back,
I watched all of Zidane's matches since around the 97 season and I would watch Juve and Madrid games just to see him.
He was not a 7 or a 8. Technical prowess means nothing if you don't move yourself in positions to get the ball. That was his problem. It just seemed like in League games he just couldn't be arsed.
Sorry but Scholes and Pirlo were two completely different players to Zidane. Pirlo sat deep and had runners all over the place to cover for his lack of mobility. Scholes first half of his career was a goalscoring #10 who didn't dictate games but was a constant goal threat and then he transitioned to a deeper midfielder.
Zidane always had two other midfielders doing the dirty work (Davids/Deschamps), (Makalele, Cambiasso, Beckham etc at Madrid). His role was basically to drift between the lines, pick up the ball, work magic and do whatever he wanted.
In 2002 we had 3 hardworking defensive midfielders, while in 2006 we had only two(one of them was an older version of 2002). Furthermore, Cafu and Roberto Carlos were done physically - and they were never that great defensively to be honest; Marcelo and Alves being even worse probably embelished their defensive skills in people's memories. Our team was much more balanced with Gilberto(not Silva) and Cicinho, but Parreira didn't have balls enough to kick the elders out. Also, Ronaldinho was a much more hardworking player in 2002 than his older version or Robinho.
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Which star not named Messi isn't this true of, over the last 30 years though? From 1996 to 2004 Zidane had 2 bad stretches, in the second half of 98/beginning of 99, on a juventus side in full meltdown(he promptly got better once they sacked Lippi and stopped the disfunction), and then in his first 6 months at Real Madrid in '01(again, once he settled in, he was awesome). Outside of those stretches he was pretty consistent