Bellingham probably hasn't hit the pass success rate that Kroos maintains over the last 10 seasons or so even once over the course of 90 minutes. He's a completely different type of player, really.
Jude Bellingham | Borussia Dortmund player...
- Thread starter Rozay
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Bellingham probably hasn't hit the pass success rate that Kroos maintains over the last 10 seasons or so even once over the course of 90 minutes. He's a completely different type of player, really.
So? He doesn't have to play like Kroos
Yep, comes across as a proper toxic dickhead at times. But he is young, and 2 years from now he could turn that edge in his personality into something positive, where he demands excellence from his teammates but doesn't have the morale crushing petulant reactions when they make mistakes. Played with too many cnuts who killed team spirit with that type of attitude not to be concerned with it in him.
Really like his all round game though, not sure about like for like comparisons, but athletically and technically good, carries the ball well, can create, score, composed and not afraid of putting his foot in or body on the line. That is a lot of game for a 19 YO.
Of course not. But if he doesn't, he's simply not like him.
How do City and Pep do it? Remarkably well run club.
What is it that they have done?
This is a very odd observation. Nothing about Bellingham signifies being a playmaker. He's profile and instinct is B2B.
They don't tend to get better with time, usually it's the opposite. I can't think of too many players who displayed their emotions that way and reined it in over time. CR7 is another great example of someone who only got worse with time when it comes to that. With that said, he seems very charismatic off-the-field, and seems to be well-liked by his teammates, so that can excuse some of the theatrics on the field.
If city get him I’d like to see us go all in for rice. Don’t want city to get Bellingham and Chelsea to go get rice.
Casemiro and Rice is overkill.
Moises Caicedo will be better than Rice and a shrewd signing
Yeah. We don't want to end up like the English NT
I’ve
It was always stupid for Liverpool to put their eggs in a surefire 100m midfielder basket considering he'd be the majority of Liverpool's budget (if not all) and they've done a pretty awful job reinforcing the midfield before even going after him.
I rate Thiago as a class midfielder but it also felt like he was where the turn occurred, as he's not a classic workhorse like they had with the early Klopp teams and is historically injury prone. But even besides him as the crown jewel they've done nothing to try and replenish what is probably the most important part of those Klopp teams in terms of what is asked of them physically.
It was always stupid for Liverpool to put their eggs in a surefire 100m midfielder basket considering he'd be the majority of Liverpool's budget (if not all) and they've done a pretty awful job reinforcing the midfield before even going after him.
I rate Thiago as a class midfielder but it also felt like he was where the turn occurred, as he's not a classic workhorse like they had with the early Klopp teams and is historically injury prone. But even besides him as the crown jewel they've done nothing to try and replenish what is probably the most important part of those Klopp teams in terms of what is asked of them physically.
And yet he's an attacking playmaker on a similar level to Kroos/Modric
I wonder if Jude was originally a special player in Birmingham, as in the case of Haaland, or is it the result of the development of Borussia (Sancho, Kagawa, Sahin)? Would it be a gamble to buy him for 100 mil?
He captained Birmingham as a 16 year old. He was special.
That's harsh on Sancho, it was very well known in football that he was a massive talent before going to Dortmund. They didn't just create him into the player he became there.
Sancho was considered the one of the best in the world as a youth player he won the u17 European Championship best player. Haaland actually played in this tournament and Sancho tore Norway apart in a group game, even giving Haaland a bit of run around at one point. Sancho also won the u17 World Cup with England. Bellingham was as always seen as the best England youth player in the 2003 age group, which is probably England's strongest ever. At under 16 level he captained a side containing Jamal Musiala, Levi Colwill and Karamoko Dembele to a 4-0 win over Brazil. This summer the same age group won the u19 Euros starting the final without a single player that started that game against Brazil, which shows how strong the age group is for England.
Just hope he goes to Real. If he ends up at Liverpool or City it would be grim. If City land him it would just be sad for the league, they're just too powerful.
They've just 99% signed Bellingham for the summer.
That's strange i've seen zero reports.
I was half joking. City have made no direct approach yet, just mentioned he's a great player.
Can someone link the original Glaston post please? I cant find it.
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/glaston-goes-into-meltdown.430643/#post-21176646
Kid is a freakish talent
I always considered the 2000 age group the best ever, completely dominating sides. The World Cup was an expectation with that group. Same with the u17 Euros that they lost. Of that group, I initially thought Gomes, Sancho, and Foden were the top talents. By the time the World Cup came along, the top talents shifted Gomes out, and CHO became the 3rd best talent. Although, at the time you could make the case that Sessegnon belonged to that group as he was doing well in the Championship at 17 years of age? He was playing above that age group by the time those tournaments came about.
Some do consider the 2003 age group the best, but I didn't see them dominate like the 2000 age group did. However, Bellingham (being the best of his 2003 group) would be right there with Sancho and Foden.
Sancho used to run at players for fun. And his dribbling statistics in the Bundesliga certainly was a continuation of that dribbling prowess.
It's a shame how Sancho looks so timid, which could be due to low confidence, or most likely a combination of low confidence in his pace/acceleration.
Your point is correct. Sancho was indeed in the same bracket as Bellingham, Dembele, Haaland, etc... in that they were hyped up prior to joining Dortmund and were big time prospects before joining Dortmund.
The 2003 group didn’t get the chance to play a tournament together at u17 level because of Covid so the comparison to the 2000s at that level is a little unfair.
2000 group has the best top talents I agree but the 2003 group is deeper. The 2003 group won the u19 Euros conceding only 3 goals in 11 games in qualifying and the final tournament. That was without any of the early big names of the group Bellingham, Elliot, Musiala (now with Germany), Dembele (faded) and Colwill. Arguably the best midfielder still with the group Charlie Patino was injured for the tournament also. They’ll be one of the favourites for the u20 World Cup next summer if they can get the same group of players that won the Euros there.
It isn’t controversial to say the 2000s were better though.
We’re starting to see some of the u19 Euro winning players coming through now. Illing Junior is catching the eye at Juve. Bynoe Gittens was getting decent minutes for Dortmund before doing his shoulder and Aaron Ramsey scored two for Norwich yesterday.
He has 9 goals this season. He could realistically hit 20. Also made 7 tackles and 3 interceptions yesterday playing as a DM (according to whoscored).
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He's not a playmaker though.
It depends how you frame that. He isn't a possession retaining regista type like Kroos but if you look at his stats he's up there with the best when it comes to shot and goal creating actions, passes into the penalty area, progressive passes etc.
https://fbref.com/en/players/57d88cf9/scout/365_m1/Jude-Bellingham-Scouting-Report
When we talk about a potential move to Real I think we should expect Bellingham to replace Modric, not Kroos.
Yeah that's the plan.
Anyways, going back to last season his numbers for goals per minutes, assists per minutes, xG per minutes, xA per minutes and SCA per 90 are near identical to Modric's. He lags behind as a passer, and unfortinately fbref no longer tracks carries but iirc he had Modric beat on those making up for the inferior passing
Being a playmaker is not something you can determine with stats.
Define it then and qualify how the attributes of the role cannot be expressed through statistics.
The player who dictates play, the central player who decides the tempo and uses their passing to break down the opponent.
He does part of it, and he could be that player in the future, but hes not there yet.
I don't think he'll ever become that player but I don't think that's what Real Madrid want him for.
That position can be defined through stats though. The player would have high possession stats, high number of touches, low turnovers, high number of progressive passes, high number of through balls etc etc.
This is semantics. Bellingham is a final third playmaker on a similar level to Modric and Kroos. At 19, and on a team that asks him to be more than that
I feel players like Modric and Kroos are the complete wrong type to compare him to. Bellingham goes more towards CMs/AMs like Lampard, the young Ballack or even someone like Matthäus. All players with a certain dynamism and drive towards the goal. Players you'd describe as "box to box" player in England. Modric and Kroos on the other hand are examples of how the modern game turned "classical" playmakers/AMs into CMs while Bellingham is a throwback to the era of CMs/Liberos that I just named.
Or to give you another comparison, look at us (Bayern)... I would never call Goretzka a final third playmaker but he can still play some pretty good passes and does have his impact there but that's due to the way he pushes into the final third. That's the kind of player Bellingham is, though with even more potential, but at the same time he isn't someone like Kimmich (or Modric, Kroos etc.) who wants to stay somewhat deeper and have his team mates ahead of him. That of course doesn't mean Bellingham can't develop more into that kind of player (Ballack certainly did over his career, as did someone like Schweinsteiger) but currently Bellingham is certainly an "all action CM".
Or to put it simply: Players like Kimmich, Modric, Kroos have their eyes on team mates who can exploit space while your Goretzkas, Bellinghams etc. seek that space themselves and drive the ball forwards (and yes it is obviously a simplification because in reality players will always do a bit of both).
He's just not. His passing his adequate, nothing more nothing less. His stand out strength is his drive, most of the time he advances play not by passing, but by running with the ball through midfield, dribbling past defenders and/or drawing fouls, starting high-paced combinations. That's like the literal opposite of "Turbo-Toni".
You can see it very well in his stats, too:
Shot Creating Actions:
Clearly standing out at dribbling and being fouled - relatively speaking.
Passing stats:
All of them pretty adequate, but far away from the numbers of a top playmaker. The completion especially, before anyone tries to argue that his team is keeping his passing numbers down.
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What is the difference in advancing the ball by passing or carrying it forward? What's the difference by getting the ball into the box via pass or dribbling? What is the difference in creating space via dribbling or passing? The end result is the same. Not to mention off ball runs are very much part of playmaking
They are two different things and you usually need some balance of both to be effective? Therefore it's important to make distinctions, rather than just to call every player with some form of individual attacking quality a playmaker?