I like him and he is quality. But he offers nothing much on our right hand side which makes us look unbalance.
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I knew van Gaal wouldn't sell Mata, but I thought that he would play at 10 this season. I guess his physicality is more of a hindrance there or something?
I'm starting to like him as RW though, no he hasn't got alot of pace but he brings pinpoint passing in the final 3rd- something the rest of the team are absolutely dreadfull at right now. With his freedom to roam all over the pitch he can be of influence and very important to the team, with Darmian being an excellent defender we're not even that weak defensively down the right which is a plus. He has his limitations but what he brings to the team is much more important for van Gaal right now, he's basically involved in every attack.
I'm starting to like him as RW though, no he hasn't got alot of pace but he brings pinpoint passing in the final 3rd- something the rest of the team are absolutely dreadfull at right now. With his freedom to roam all over the pitch he can be of influence and very important to the team, with Darmian being an excellent defender we're not even that weak defensively down the right which is a plus. He has his limitations but what he brings to the team is much more important for van Gaal right now, he's basically involved in every attack.
I don't think he's supposed to be offering the threat down that side, it's supposed to come from the over-lapping full back and the AM (Herrera yesterday) occupying that space when Mata does come inside.
I don't think it's Mata's problem, really, and more an issue of unfamiliarity with Darmian. Last season Valencia, for all his faults, did do a decent job of giving us width from that area, the problem is that Valencia's delivery and lack of talent in the final third meant he might as well not have bothered.
The more Mata and Darmian play together the more productive an area that right hand side will become.
I'm surprised people seem to be generally pleased with his league performances. For me he stifles any directness or urgency about our attack the moment he gets the ball and rarely if ever plays these final passes that people talk about. Not a fan, wish he was great for us though. I genuinely think we'd have more joy with Young on the right wing.
We're struggling for goals yet some people want us to drop our most productive player? Glad you guys aren't in charge.
As for our attack being lopsided, that's kinda what happens when you play with a false winger isn't it? Not like asymmetrical formations are that unusual...
As for our attack being lopsided, that's kinda what happens when you play with a false winger isn't it? Not like asymmetrical formations are that unusual...
I just think its over complicating things for no reason. Rather then relying on Darmian or Herrera providing the width when Mata goes wondering, why not just play an actual winger there who can provide that? And play Mata play centrally in the space where he's roaming into anyway?
I'm just amazed you seem to find it so weird.
David Silva's played that role for City for absolutely years and he's worshiped on here.
David Silva is a much better player then Mata, who has the ability to dribble and continually beat a player. Something Mata can't do, and something that massively hinders our attack when he has the ball on the right, and always has to look for a pass. Its easy to defend against, and results in our slow build up play.
The difference Young made yesterday when he came on and starting running at the defence (Martial too) was night and day. Thats what we need on the wing.
So the issue is that you don't think Mata is good enough, not where he's lining up then? Because the 'issues' you seem to have with him playing from the right aren't going to be miraculously solved by him playing at 10. I don't see how anything I've written in bold relates at all to where he is playing.
You don't have to be a great dribbler to be a great #10.
So why is that any different when he's nominally lining up on the right but doing the vast majority of his work in the exact same areas as he would be if he was playing as a 10?
This is his heat map from the first game of last season vs Swansea where he was definitely a number 10.
I can't find one for yesterday, but I would be surprised if it wasn't almost identical. So how is his lack of dribbling an issue in one position but not an issue in another?
It's just an invented criticism, as is pretty much everything thrown against Mata from the right. The fact some people seem to genuinely want Valencia playing over him there is staggering.
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So why is that any different when he's nominally lining up on the right but doing the vast majority of his work in the exact same areas as he would be if he was playing as a 10?
This is his heat map from the first game of last season vs Swansea where he was definitely a number 10.
I can't find one for yesterday, but I would be surprised if it wasn't almost identical. So how is his lack of dribbling an issue in one position but not an issue in another?
Jesus, this is getting tedious.
The issue isn't what he's doing once he's central, its that to get central he leaves the right wing with no one attacking there. THAT is the issue. The right wing is unoccupied. There is no threat from there.
And second, when he is on the right, isolated with the fullback, he's very limited. He's not going to beat the defender, so he's either going to pass it backwards/inside, or wait for an overlap, which is easy to defend against. Thats far less of an issue in the centre of the pitch where he's not going to be isolated one on one with a defender all that often.
exactly, he's great poacher and has an eye for a pass, also can come little bit deeper and control the game, dead ball specialist, great technical player with some flair when he turns it on. I understand people call for a faster more direct palyer on that right hand side but it has more to do with the possession tactics set by Van Gaal, Mata would be actually pretty good if we countered quickly and he had all the space to run at and mainly where to put final ball.
I dont' think he's ideal but he's the best we have on the right right now and unless we change our pace when setting up counters and in final third we will see this kind of performances from Mata, right now he's just effective player we need but he can be really nice to watch if we turn on as a team.
For some reason I think he's one of the first names on the team sheet regardless of the position. LVG wants him on the pitch. I don't mind him on the right and you can always rely on him to provide goals and assists. But he was poor yesterday. Didn't seem to get on the ball as much as he usually does.
It would be less tedious if you didn't insist on making this a circular argument and bringing up points that I've already addressed. I don't really know why you bothered to type out two paragraphs of stuff you've already said tbh.
This was said about you earlier but its abundantly clear in this discussion too:
You obviously believe there is only one way to play football, and any attempt to argue with you that there is more than one way to skin the proverbial cat is just a waste of time. No Mata, is not a pacy, powerful wide man. If thats the only person you think should be allowed to play on our right wing then fine, I simply disagree with you and am happy with Mata.
Our play often loses momentum when the ball reaches him as if there isn't an immediate pass on he has to come backwards with the ball as he can't dribble and has no speed to go past a player and drive the attack on. There's no doubt that he can have very effective moments within games, but a lot of the time I find him incredibly frustrating and a passenger.
If it makes you feel better, why not just think of Mata as a #10 who occasionally helps out on the right, whilst Darmian is a right-wingback who has the flank all to himself?
That's the way I look at the team. It may be an asymmetrical formation, but that's the least of our problems, imo. Posters here put far too much stock into what a winger or a #10 is 'supposed' to do and how formations are 'supposed' to look.
The only way it'd be a problem is if either Darmian or Mata were uninvolved as a result of where they're played. On the contrary, they're probably two of our most influential players. My only issue would be with the tempo of the latter's passing, but I think that's more down to LvG's philosophy than anything else. I'm quite happy with our lop-sided formation.
Because that still leaves us an attacker short on the right hand side, which is a massive issue.
We need someone on the right, doing what Young did on the left yesterday (preferably to a higher level mind). Playing at pace, taking defenders on, and putting the opposition defence on the back foot. To much of our attack is played in front of the oppositions defence because we don't have anyone that can penetrate them or run beyond them. Its easy to defend against, and for the defence to keep their shape, and plays a major part in why we're not opening teams up. All our threatening attacks also only come down the left too, and I'm not really sure how you, or anyone else, can be happy with that. I can't help but feel its because everyone likes Mata, wants him in the team, so is willing to accept/ignore the obvious problems his lack of pace and penetration causes. Fwiw, I want Mata in the team too, just not on the wing.
The difference Young and Marcial made yesterday was night and day with the first half. We'd look a far, far, more threatening team with genuine pace and penetration on both wings, not just one.
van Gaal seems to like him and prefer him on the right. He wasn't the problem yesterday as our two forwards from the low countries were both far worse.
These two points are contradictory. Either he is on the wing or he isn't.
To me, it looks as though we're set up like a 3-5-2 on the right hand side (with a single wingback and a narrow AM) and a 4-4-2 on the left hand side (with a fullback overlapping his winger). What we lose in width, we make up for with an extra presence in the middle. Both formations have their strengths and LvG is mixing and matching his approach for the personnel at his disposal.
I can understand wanting a traditional, United style pair of wingers, but I'd rather have our best 11 players on the pitch. When judging Mata's role, I only question how much he contributes. The answer is 'a lot'. That's something we should want to keep in the side.
Our problems are more down to tempo and a lack of movement. When Young came on, our system stayed the same. When Martial came on, again, our system stayed the same (only this time with Herrera as the 'winger'). It just goes to show that our lack of urgency is the real issue. A lop-side midfield isn't.
I thought Mata did pretty well yesterday, set up a couple players earlier on..
Is it impossible to consider that Liverpool shut up shop on the right considering what happened in the two previous meetings? Rodgers neutralised Mata and thats why we went to attack on the left and when Anders shifted there (a different type of player) we manage to push their defence and got a penalty.
He's being deployed as a Right Inside Forward. The problem that @Sam is referring to is that he spends to much time inside and not enough time forward. If he were to be playing as a 10, he'd play in a position that suits where he is currently playing, as well the attributes that make his use of his abilities but we'd also have a right sided player that spends most of his time forward and taking on the left fullback and stretching the defensive line to give more balance.
It isn't a blight on Mata or his ability, he simply is not that positionally disciplined and gets bogged down with his lack of mobility putting out fires from deep and inside instead of being up forward with the attack moving it on when he is supposed to be.
That is not what he is saying, he is saying he doesn't want him to play Right Inside Forward, he wants him to play 10 or not at all.
It is a pretty simple solution, either tell him to stay forward and pressure his man more, give him freedom to start and continue counter attacks or remove him from the Right Forward position and play him elsewhere or leave him on the bench. So far he has been very ineffective at Right Inside Forward and a couple of assists and a goal mask that completely. Against Liverpool he again had a very poor game and was largely anonymous. He's really been going backwards since the start of the season and I would not be surprised if he is starting to get phased out of the team with the couple of substitutions that have come recently. The role he's trying to play and not doing well is quite problematic when you look at how unbalanced the attack is and how little time Mata spends forward linking the attack.
The answer is not 'a lot'. Frankly I have no idea how you could come to that conclusion whilst your above statement says we've had to contort the system in a gnarled and rigid way just so you can make comments on Mata's game being viable. It might as well be that the guy simply isn't a right forward and is struggling to the point where it unbalances our attack. He's getting stuck behind play and having to come inside for a safe option more times than not because of his lack of pace and willingness to pressure the fullback.
Good post. I don't really understand what most posters really want to happen. Are they really suggest we either:
- Drop Mata and play Young from the right; or
- Drop Herrera, move Mata inside and play Young from the right
What does Young have to do with Mata? I don't think anybody is saying we should move him to the right, because it's common knowledge he does ten Times better on the left. The problem is that if we don't have any options on the right wing. At all.
I think people find it hard to understand how a team plays with a false winger. They keep comparing our style to how a team sets up with two conventional wingers. When a false winger plays, no matter how good he is. The concentration of attacks will always be through the side with the conventional winger. He is the outlet. Sky put up an opta stat for Man city a couple of weeks ago to show how their attack was when Silva plays as a false winger. In the past two seasons, over 50% of Cuity's attackes have come from Jesus Navas side. This is despite everyone acknowledges that David silva being one of the best in the world.
The vast majority of Barcelona's attacks com from the left side despite having the best player in the world on the right. The problem with our attack isn't that it comes majorly from the left but the pace of the attack needs to improve vastly.
As I said earlier in the thread, I don't have an issue with him on the right, he gets more space there and he comes up with goals and assists. However our attackers need to move it around quicker and that includes him.
The vast majority of Barcelona's attacks com from the left side despite having the best player in the world on the right. The problem with our attack isn't that it comes majorly from the left but the pace of the attack needs to improve vastly.
As I said earlier in the thread, I don't have an issue with him on the right, he gets more space there and he comes up with goals and assists. However our attackers need to move it around quicker and that includes him.
I'm not so convinced about that... I think Mata is plugging a gaping hole in the squad on the right wing. I agree he has not been at his best in that role but realistically who else could play there for us? We have a lack of options and IMO he needs to be in the starting line up.
Excellent post. It goes back to people seeing something which is not the 'United way' they are never going to be happy unless we see two wingers fly down the flanks. I agree the speed of the attack is awful, no wonder we struggle to break teams down.
People are saying we need width on the right hand side. That implies that either Young would replace him on the right side or Memphis moves over from the left and Young comes in on the left. The net result of this to the team is Young in, Mata or Herrera out.
Whatever he is he's ridiculously productive, scored or assisted 3 games in a row now..
I'm sorry your post isn't welcome here.
What you meant to write was a paragraph of drivel about the United way, thump your chest a few times and find 37 ways to say 'pace and width'.
But seriously on your last point do you think its Mata's fault that he doesn't move the ball quickly enough or a problem of a lack of movement around him? I think he moves the ball quickly enough when players make themselves available for him but dallies on it too long when there is a lack of obvious pass on which, sadly, happens too often.
I think it's a collective problem and I don't blame Mata for it. I have noticed that the distance between our attackers is quite often too big so there is little hope of some combination play in and around the penalty box.
Halle-fecking-lujah!!
How is that so difficult for some people to get their head around?
One of the problems with Mata's position is that Darmian isn't a wing back, or at least hasn't really shown that he can play as one yet. I see him more as a traditional full back who overlaps his winger and puts a cross it, but that sort of combination doesn't happen much with Mata's current role. Darmian has the whole wing to himself which means it falls to him to make runs with the ball. I don't know if he has that in him.
Would work better if we just played with a guy that could play the right attacker better than Mata.
He is seemingly too productive to actually leave out, but then again as a direct comparison, Herrera is very productive too in addition to being an all action midfielder who can press and defend. I just feel at times he's too easily nullified on the right in terms of being a general and consistent thread. Having one side completely shut down isn't ideal.
It's tough because on one hand there is no threat from the right hand side and it's to easy for teams to defend against him but he is productive. At some point he surely has to be given a chance in a central role because eventually we are going to need a better option on the right wing and so far no one has really nailed down that role behind Rooney.
Of course, I didn't want to give the impression my problem was with Darmian, who I think is a fine player. Just that if we want to play Mata there in that role it requires a different sort of full back to funtion really well. We simply don't have a suitable right wing combination at the moment.
Imagine Fergie giving Mata the hairdryer. He'd probably end up pulling his cheeks.
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