Stop it Juan!
8
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 54
- Goals
- 11
- Assists
- 11
- Yellow cards
- 7
- Red cards
- 1
- Status
I am not really sure, I think people see words like "winger" and "out wide" and automatically think that your wide players have to play as wide as possible and run down the outside and whip crosses in constantly. But it isn't really the case here, all you have to do is look at Depay and Young and how they play their role and assume that to give balance to the team that Juan Mata has to be doing the exact same thing. Which he clearly isn't, he's out of position a lot I have found and tends to stay back and slow down our counters as well as ball watch from deep while we go forward. It is as though he must hold Darmians hand through everything.
I know it is harsh but logically looking at his game right now it is as though he knows himself that his legs are gone and instead of actually trying to take his fullback on he retains possession the majority of the time. For someone playing a pivotal forward role that simply isn't good enough. He has more passes backwards than he does forwards as well.
I can also logically deduce that his poor positional sense also led him to being dropped from the 10 role last year. Although probably harshly with how much of a mess we were in the 3-5-2 and the wide players not really having a clue how to operate properly, I'd like to see him play 10 in a 4-2-3-1 but at the same time, Herrera has 10x the amount of mobility on and off the ball. It would be rather pointless to swap them in my opinion.
I'm sorry Sam, I know you're agreeing with it because its another way to complain about pace and width but surely you can see its pseudo-intellectual nonsense.
What does the quote 'he spends too much time inside and not enough time forward' actually mean? Those things aren't mutually exclusive.
Taking it on face value though, a look at our relative positions vs Liverpool shows that Mata, actually, was our second most advanced player behind Depay during the Liverpool match and actually spent more time 'forward' than Young did (presumably Ashley Young is a player you'd like to see over Mata on the right).
So Mata actually spent most of his time both forward and inside, probably quite unexpectedly for a player being asked to play on the inside right channel. If you want Mata to not be in the team and instead favour a traditional right winger who will isolate his full back and cross the ball then fine. BUT JUST SAY THAT. Don't pretend like it's an enlightened critique of the failures of Mata to perform as a playmaker from the right because its not.
Well he can be criticized for his performances as a playmaker too. He deserves praise because he's one of our most productive players in terms of end product but he hasn't been a great playmaker for us. We don't have great options, but ideally if he can't provide a genuine threat to the fullback using pace and dribbling ability, then he should be getting on the ball, dictating and running the show.mI'm sorry Sam, I know you're agreeing with it because its another way to complain about pace and width but surely you can see its pseudo-intellectual nonsense.
What does the quote 'he spends too much time inside and not enough time forward' actually mean? Those things aren't mutually exclusive.
Taking it on face value though, a look at our relative positions vs Liverpool shows that Mata, actually, was our second most advanced player behind Depay during the Liverpool match and actually spent more time 'forward' than Young did (presumably Ashley Young is a player you'd like to see over Mata on the right).
So Mata actually spent most of his time both forward and inside, probably quite unexpectedly for a player being asked to play on the inside right channel. If you want Mata to not be in the team and instead favour a traditional right winger who will isolate his full back and cross the ball then fine. BUT JUST SAY THAT. Don't pretend like it's an enlightened critique of the failures of Mata to perform as a playmaker from the right because its not.
At the same time, I'd like to see him playing with Martial and Depay to his left. Maybe more pace around him will help him showcase creativity.
Top player and doing a job but he isn't a traditional right winger, he will cut inside and cover similar ground to an AM, that's fine if the AM will interchange and drift wide, like Di Maria was supposed to do, but the AM's we have prefer the center, for me shouldn't be a right winger but the problem as we know is our lack of actual right wingers.
Wing - 1. Depay 2. Young
Attacking Mid - 1. Mata 2. Herrera
Assuming we aren't considering Valencia a winger anymore. In terms of wingers, we have so many unknown's who may well outperform in that position, despite not being as accomplished, rounded as Mata. Players such as Pereira, Wilson, Lingard and not that I love the idea, but Shaw if Rojo can cover LB adequately.
I love Mata, but he shouldn't be considered for a wide position with one striker as we need the width.
Wing - 1. Depay 2. Young
Attacking Mid - 1. Mata 2. Herrera
Assuming we aren't considering Valencia a winger anymore. In terms of wingers, we have so many unknown's who may well outperform in that position, despite not being as accomplished, rounded as Mata. Players such as Pereira, Wilson, Lingard and not that I love the idea, but Shaw if Rojo can cover LB adequately.
I love Mata, but he shouldn't be considered for a wide position with one striker as we need the width.
You have to look back at the previous games to see what is being discussed.
That isn't what he's saying, that is what you think he (we) wan't. Nobody is pretending to critique some pseudo scientific view of our football. He's not playing forward enough and not influencing our play in a dynamic way. That is the bare fact, people seem to want to use pseudo science to explain that he's a false winger, inside 10 in some sort of magical formation where we don't play a right inside forward for a reason. We don't, Mata has just been poor.
Even his end product this season has not been that great at right inside forward. Two assists, one from a set piece and one from so far out of position. His goal was a back post tap in as well. He has been quite productive in the past though. He's also had a couple of really good low shots saved. I'd like to see more of that and less pointless back passing in our circle on our side of half way.
I think given the circumstances he is a pretty productive player, at least relative to our team. I'm guessing the percentage of his contribution would be quite high in the games he's played. But yeah, with Mata, the concerns are different. It's what he does the rest of the game that needs to be improved, or alternated with in some games.
We don't need width, we need someone to attack from the right wing. If Mata roams around, only Darmian stays on the right side, and for obvious reasons he will be reserved in his actions.
Obviously, Mata is not a winger so nobody expects him to bomb down the wing ala Tony. Last year he was a false/inverted winger and I thought that role suited him perfectly- he played high up the pitch, he could link up with RB, Herrera or striker, could utilize his excellent positioning and finishing (he has striker instincts). This season he's been playing different role, doing simple things most of the time, which he's so good at. He isn't even that influential for our play, but I have a feeling he's one of the first names on the team sheet because of moments of effectiveness. He's the kind of player who can play shit game but still manages to grab a goal, so it's understandable. It happens quite often so I don't blame van Gaal, I just think we could do better if he played like last season.
This is clearly van Gaal instructions so I don't blame Juan, but I don't like him in that role at all. I really don't understand how playing Mata so deep benefits the team in general, especially that we have proper midfield right now and we don't really need him there. I hope Young goes back to the team and we play like we did last season, with Mata staying high up the pitch instead of being everywhere else then on the right wing. Surely if van Gaal wants him in the team, he would be more effective playing higher on the wing?
Who cares if it's a symmetrical formation or not, the point is we have nobody attacking from the right wing and I find it bizarre that so many people don't see a problem with that. We’re having real troubles with scoring goals from open play- so far we’ve scored 3 goals in 4 EPL games. Maybe that has something to do with attacking only from the left.
Amen, I agree 100%.
What circumstances? True, relative to our team. Or are those the circumstances? (not having a dig just curious)
Yup.
He hasn't been playing a different role at all. The heat maps from various games show that he's one of our furthest forward players. I have no idea where people are getting this idea that he's playing ridiculously deep.
They probably have in mind his awful mistakes in our own half, because otherwise he plays very high. Personally I have a problem with his passing game, he keeps making those dangerous lateral passes and totally refuses to make the vertical ones.
What heat maps?
The one against Liverpool that shows him further forward than our centre forward?
The one against Newcastle that shows him practically in line with our centre forward?
The one against Swansea that shows him practically in line with our centre forward?
Since the moment he signed, I couldn't wait for him to play for us in Europe, missed out on that season due to being cup tied. Can't wait to see him out there, could really see the best of him.
Well I hope.
Well I hope.
Right, but none of those position maps show anything other than he's very far forward (typically the second or third most advanced player) and that he's very much playing inside. Neither of those support your statement that 'he's too much inside and not enough forward' and you still haven't begun to explain exactly what you meant by it.
In fact, you've pretty much just shown exactly what anyone who has watched us this season should be able to tell, he is not a winger, he is not playing like a winger, and he is not expected to be one.
My point, which I feel like you've missed. Isn't that I think Mata's been brilliant, I agree with your point that he didn't have a particularly great game against Liverpool and @amolbhatia50k that we should be seeing more of his play making abilities because he's clearly being picked for that reason (although I would add that I think the lack of pace and movement around him is a far bigger mitigating factor than is being given credit for).
Rather, my point is I find it incredibly frustrating to see Mata criticised for not doing things that he's not being asked to do and that aren't expected of him. It's akin to saying that Chris Smalling has had an appalling season because he's yet to score a goal. I have no problem whatsoever with the idea that we might be better off with a more traditional winger, I don't know if thats true but as an idea its fine, I have no problem whatsoever with people criticising Mata's performances for the role he's being picked for.
What I do have a problem with is people criticising Mata for not giving us width, for not taking on his full-back, for Van Gaal for picking Mata 'on the wing' etc... because none of those things are expected of him and he's clearly not playing there.
And what I find most frustrating is people having pops at Mata for this issue when he has, once again, been our most productive attacking threat and, by a long distance the least worrisome of our issues in the final third. I find it perverse in a season where we're struggling to create chances and score goals that our most likely player to create chances and score goals is the one player the most people seem to have the knives out for.
Criticising and nitpicking Juan Mata whilst Wayne Rooney seemingly gets away with murder with some our supporters during his shocking start to the season, is right up there with the worst this forum could produce.
As has already been said by others, he is the least troublesome part of our attack. He's downright excellent. He needs to start every single game.
As has already been said by others, he is the least troublesome part of our attack. He's downright excellent. He needs to start every single game.
De Telegraaf say he's going to play No 10 today.
Oooh, that would be interesting.
Maybe LVG will be more willing to play him as a #10 in Europe?
PSV 2:1 Man Utd
I think he's mostly played well today, though judging by the match thread this seems to be a very unpopular opinion....
Edit: I did find it hard to focus after the Shaw injury though tbf.
Edit: I did find it hard to focus after the Shaw injury though tbf.
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He's been utterly useless and pointless.
Had enough of him.
Fair weather player, frustrating, totally inconsistent, careless in possession. He pops up with the odd world class assist/goal & the Caf creams themselves.
He's been totally underwhelming since he's arrived.
Fair weather player, frustrating, totally inconsistent, careless in possession. He pops up with the odd world class assist/goal & the Caf creams themselves.
He's been totally underwhelming since he's arrived.
Play him at number 10 they said....
For all the shite Rooney gets on here, Mata is seriously pointless.
Can't play on the wing. Too lightweight for number 10 and midfield. Had it with him.
Can't play on the wing. Too lightweight for number 10 and midfield. Had it with him.
This is the Juan Mata performance thread. If you want to spew agenda driven bile about Rooney go and do it one of the seventy other Rooney threads on the board.
Not good enough sorry.
Ironically, looked as though he's playing out of position. No clue at AM.
So bad today.
Actually i dont think he has been very good since joining United. He had a lot of bad/invisible games during his time but masked some of them with a goal or assist.
Actually i dont think he has been very good since joining United. He had a lot of bad/invisible games during his time but masked some of them with a goal or assist.
Woeful today. Worst game he's ever had for us I reckon.
But he's Juan Mata, sexy beard and all, he MUST be good.
Terrible for us. Exactly as you said, has a run of invisible games, masks it with a simple assist here and a goal there, but generally terrible in his play in the team.
fecking disgraceful.
Piss off.
Piss off.
Don't think he was near as bad as, say, Herrera was in the CL game a few weeks ago. Think some people are overly hard on Mata.
Bit of a pointless player, dont hope to see him start anytime soon.
What a stinker. Unbelievable he wasnt subbed off
I love Mata but he was absolutely terrible. Worst I've ever seen him.
Always looking for the extra touch and pass, often unnecessarily.
Time to leave him out.
Time to leave him out.
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