I am starting to agree with this. I was one who didn't really like him in the #10 role for us, but that could be more due to the fact that the players around him just aren't suited. I would rather we build around Mata than Rooney.
8
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 54
- Goals
- 11
- Assists
- 11
- Yellow cards
- 7
- Red cards
- 1
- Status
I am starting to agree with this. I was one who didn't really like him in the #10 role for us, but that could be more due to the fact that the players around him just aren't suited. I would rather we build around Mata than Rooney.
Mata isn't suited either.
A team like ours doesn't need to build the side around anybody, not even you don't have a messi/Ronaldo in the squad.
We should definitely have him as the #10 though to get the best out of him and our wide players. Him or Herrera.
I just hope we don't put Rooney there now that we have martial.
Brwned, you're talking about Ryan Giggs here. His entire persona and legacy on the football field was based on taking people on, being like lightning and putting whoever comes near him under pressure with the ball at his feet. Are we really going to compare his role on the field from a good 5-10 years ago under Ferguson (which was basically a down hill beat'em up brawler type football system) to the way Juan Mata and Depay are playing at the moment? There is a reason that we are one of the lowest ranked teams for amount of dribbles. I get what you are trying to say, I personally don't think it really has anything to do with the system also, more that Mata just doesn't have the positional instinct or the mobility to play as a right forward properly. Tactical and intelligence is there and ability to finish but without the other two, he's rarely in the right place at the right time.
Look, I am not mindlessly bashing him or having a go at him a la the post a couple below yours mindlessly blaming Rooney for Mata's lack of pace and positional sense. But there are so many instances where he is out of position and either getting in the way of fast moving attacks or he is stuck sitting back way to much slowing the play down by passing back or dribbling slowly into a nothing area and then dribbling backwards and passing it back. There simply has to be some sort of directive from Van Gaal allowing him to be completely nerfed on the right flank. We are rarely attempting to put pressure on the opposition fullback. I am hesitant to definitively say that Depay also doesn't take on his man enough because he actually has pace with the ball at his feet, so by design, his game takes him into more situations where he isn't holding up the ball and then passing it back. But I do feel that these two players in this system need to be forward facing and basically getting the ball and running at the defence and causing problems. Otherwise there is absolutely no point having a player like Rooney up front, with everybody who is up playing with their back to goal and moving backwards it keeps pulling him off the line and out of the centre to have to contribute in the spaces left behind.
It makes no sense and I don't understand it if it is what Van Gaal is trying to get us to do. Since he hasn't really changed it at all? Or dropped Mata for somebody else and moved him? I don't get it, it must be what we are trying to do and it makes no sense to me. That is all I am trying to understand here.
Take this chance for example, this is actually a really really good chance to score and part of exactly why he needs to always be up and in the right position:
But he is just so far wide and then when there is a neat ball in he doesn't tuck in at all. He just kinda stops on the spot and even instinctively I don't know how from there you are going to get a ball to fashion something on target. Herrera would have to be an absolute magician to manufacture a pass that connected well enough for a player out that wide. If he tucks in and tucks in early he either draws the fullback away from Herrera allowing him a better chance on goal (but probably far to late in that instance as he starts out to wide, which is fair enough) or he is in perfect position to take that ball first time from a few yards away from Herrera and not have both defenders come across completely closing down any opportunity at all.
I really just want us to be creating as many of those opportunities we can a game and to me, he's rarely in the right spot at the right time to be able to. (Oh I remember that is kinda similar to the Liverpool goal he scored.)
I know that is a bit neolithic and moyesish having to simmer the game down in such a way.
Is there a legitimate reason LVG doesn't fancy Mata as a #10?
Because he's not a particularly great #10?
Based on?
How?
He is clearly more effective as a #10.
Not to mention his best ever season came in that role/position.
Just a few things.
He struggles to impose himself, to keep hold of the ball, to create when the space is restricted.
His best stuff came in a poor Chelsea side that basically counter-attacked and gave him complete freedom.
He's completely ill-suited to play number 10 in a top side who play possession football deep in the oppositions half.
He's suited to counter-attacking football, and even then - he's useless defensively and lacks the dribbling ability to really relieve pressure. So he wouldn't get into a top counter-attacking team, either.
He's got beautiful technique and is great at scoring and directly assisting. But everything thing in between is lacking. And as weird as it may sound, that prevents him from being good enough for a top team. Hence him apparently being better than Silva for two years, yet still being behind him for Spain, even when Silva (a weaker finisher) played as a false nine.
How is that clear?
If anything, being on the wing allows him the space he needs. He's not great there but at least he isn't in the congested central area, where he struggles to keep hold of the ball and impose himself.
If his best ever season was at Chelsea, then that's not particularly relevant. Chelsea were crap, they lacked balance and gave him complete freedom. Not the makings of a top team. They also didn't play a possession game, which requires a different set of skills.
He basically showed that he's a great finisher and could directly assist goals (a good chunk being set pieces - Chelsea have been great in the air for years).
The bits you need other than that (that are arguably more important for a '10') - he doesn't have.
I disagree with these two points in particular - Just 'cos the Chelsea side were poor (though how poor were they? worse then we are now?!) doesn't mean he wasn't great (he was) in that number 10, and I've seen him impose himself in loads of games, sometimes for us (Spurs Away, Liverpool Away are two that immediately spring to mind) but particularly for Chelsea (there was a game at Old Trafford I think in the FA Cup, where he absolutely ran the show in the second half).
Is he back in the Spain squad then?
His best games are almost always when he's scored. Mata completely running the show without scoring is/was a rarity.
He's great at what he does, which is scoring and directly assisting goals and he's pretty to watch, but he's not a good enough '10' for a top side. When you look at what a top side needs in a '10' (whether counter or possession football) - he's missing key parts.
He'd weaken City significantly if he replaced Silva, for example. Meanwhile, Isco, for example, would make us a better team, if he replaced Mata.
As for the games you mention:
Liverpool away - on the wing (where he's better) and it was his goals that made it special. Otherwise he was mostly part of a well oiled machine.
The FA Cup game against Chelsea - The 2-2? I remember Chelsea tearing us to shreds on the break mostly. Our ball retention was awful and the midfielders kept on gifting the ball to Chelsea with acres of space to sprint into.
Can't remember the exact Tottenham game you mention.
Of course there will be one or two examples, but not enough, in my opinion.
I don't think he struggles to impose himself in the middle, as he showed last season and previously with Chelsea. I'd say he struggles more as a winger due to his lack of pace and strength which makes it almost impossible to make an impact in that right wing, leaving us dormant for most of the game.
You can't completely disregard his performances for Chelsea because they were crap, Januzaj also had complete freedom for us in that role, so it's not like we restrict our #10s, Mata was also given complete freedom in that our brilliant spell last season when AdM was on the bench.
Chelsea's average possession in that season was 55%, which isn't significantly worse than our 2014/15 average of 58% or our current average of 57%, so it's not like they were misplacing passes or losing the ball every time they had it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Playmaker
Both accurately define Mata i must admit, but he doesn't command that role as well as his Spanish counterpart does for City, he is more effective as an attacking midfielder with 2 pacey fingers wingers on each side.
More about the manager's preference than anything else.
That same lack of pace and strength hinders him in the middle too. In fact, being wide is of benefit, because it means he isn't surrounded.
The fact that Chelsea were crap isn't even the main point. It's that they lacked balance and played a completely different style of play.
Regardless of those possession stats. it's very clear that we position ourselves higher on the pitch, suffocate the opposition more, counter-attack less. The style we play isn't what Chelsea were playing during Mata's two good years.
If you put men up close to Mata and give him the ball , Mata plays safe and sideways (regardless of whether he's central or wide).
Whereas if you counter-attack and create space to play into, Mata doesn't have to hold the ball under pressure as much, and/or beat men with dribbling or strength as much.
Most top teams face parked buses every week, so the '10' or the guy to build around (as people suggest) needs to be strong enough to keep hold of the ball, turn his man, dribble...
If the top team is playing counter-attacking football, then the 10 is usually require to relieve pressure via dribbling, and being an out ball - Mata isn't capable of this and his defensive game is also useless.
He did well at Chelsea - that's great. But Chelsea weren't particularly good and didn't play this system that van Gaal's team are playing.
It wasn't just pace surrounding him on both sides (after all Oscar was the central player for one season) it was more a case of having space to play into. We don't have that.
The weird thing is most see Mata as more of a second striker then a traditional #10 anyway.
Tbh, from everything I understand about LVG's requirements for his #10, Mata seems perfect.
yes he is
Never mind that Mata, get on with the job of sweet talking De Gea into that new contract.
Juan reactivated his YouTube channel 
He's such a lovable guy.
He's such a lovable guy.My guess is that while he sees players like Herrera and formerly Januzaj as being a lot better centrally than out wide, it's arguably quite even with Mata, who's fairly capable of doing well in a wide position. I'd struggle to see Herrera performing particularly well for us on the wing, for example.
After our 1-2 at Anfield, Van Gaal hinted that it was down to a lack of balance which is a pretty good argument for not playing Mata as a #10. He's more effective as a #10 in a chaotic system (see Chelsea in 12/13), but if we're talking about the level of organisation that top level managers like Mourinho, Van Gaal, and Del Bosque want, then he's a very poor player to have in that position. And I'm not specifically talking about defensive work when I refer to organisation, which I think is overplayed in Mata's case. You don't drop players like him for that reason. Obviously it goes way deeper than that. I wouldn't say he's gone downhill since 12/13, but he's certainly not in the comfortable position he once was in and that's because the role he's had to play has exposed his limitations.
I think it's more to due with the fact that he doesn't fancy anyone else on the right and I don't blame him. Mata is our best option there. He's pretty much our only option unless Martial can play there or if you want to use *shivers* Young or Valencia.
Scored against Macedonia
Clearly meant it
Dry leaf in his locker. Nice.
Lucky or not, that is a good goal.
An accurate shot off his weaker foot? That's brilliant
What a goal! So happy for him that he has made the Spain squad again!
Great vision to spot the keeper off his line, weaker foot too, great goal
I like this photo.
They look like brothers.
Mata needs a big performance at the weekend. He's floating through the season so far and he's a much better player than that.
He needs to take a few more efforts on goal when he cuts inside instead of circulating the ball at every opportunity. He's more than capable.
He needs to take a few more efforts on goal when he cuts inside instead of circulating the ball at every opportunity. He's more than capable.
I'd be happy with an identical one from the last time we played Liverpool.
3 goals in the last 2 games against the Scousers... reckon he'll be in amongst it again on Saturday.
If that was Herrera, that would be my new wallpaper for the rest of my life.
I like this photo.
Man Utd 3:1 Liverpool
Disappointing today. Interesting to see that Ander went on the right, I wonder if we'll play that against PSV, with Fellaini/Rooney and Martial through the middle.
- Status