[MoneyMay]

We sold the wrong player imo, on the other hand i think we were forced to sell Kagawa as we just spunked 37m on Mata just 6 months ago. The few chances Kagawa got in the middle he was bright for us, he can do everything Mata does and has more pace, skill and can beat a player.

And people saying Rooney has been poor, what utter bollox he's been one of our best and productive players before the red card.

Kagawa looked good and comfortable as a #10 for us last season, but I don't think he would have pushed for a position in our long-term formation (4-3-3). He has redeeming qualities and excels in areas Mata struggles in, but there's no guarantee that he would have found the levels of productivity Van Gaal wants, even in the diamond we're playing. It does make you question the move though. Maybe he wanted to leave? Although he's not shown it this season, Mata has very good productivity and produces even when he plays poorly, and I think him being direct has a lot to do with that.

 

[2mufc0]

Kagawa looked good and comfortable as a #10 for us last season, but I don't think he would pushed for a position in our long-term formation (4-3-3). He has redeeming qualities and excels in areas Mata struggles in, but there's no guarantee that he would have found the levels of productivity Van Gaal wants even in the diamond we're playing. It does make you question the move though - maybe he wanted to leave? Although he's not shown it this season, Mata has very good productivity and produces even when he plays poorly, and I think him being direct has a lot to do with that.

I don't really like the idea of a no.10 personally, as you said in a 4-3-3 neither Mata or Kagawa could play effectively in them. I think the circumstances forced Kagawa out more than anything. If we are heading towards a 4-3-3 formation (i hope we are) Mata will be soon out of the door.

 

[bishblaize]

The few chances Kagawa got in the middle he was bright for us, he can do everything Mata does and has more pace, skill and can beat a player.

Hmm, hard to agree with that to be honest. Its one of those - someone's theoretical ability is meaningless if they can't do it on the pitch. There were more talented right backs than Gary Nev for example, but few can say they were performed better than him during his time. And Mata is hardly as prosaic as Gary Nev was.

Mata's whole career has been outstanding til last season. Before then it was pretty much 7 straight seasons on an upward trajectory in a major league. Kagawa on the other hand had 4 hard to judge seasons in Japan, 18 months good football in Germany either side of a bad injury, then two years unconvincing form in England.

So if both players get to top form I don't see any difference between the two. But if we had to guess who would have more consistent form in the coming years you'd have to say Mata, based on their careers so far. So I think selling Kagawa made sense.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

We sold the wrong player imo, on the other hand i think we were forced to sell Kagawa as we just spunked 37m on Mata just 6 months ago. The few chances Kagawa got in the middle he was bright for us, he can do everything Mata does and has more pace, skill and can beat a player.

And people saying Rooney has been poor, what utter bollox he's been one of our best and productive players before the red card.

Mata is a better passer, a better finisher, has better movement, has better technique (in short, he's a better footballer), is better in small spaces, can handle the quicker pace of the Premier League and doesn't shirk away from physical side of the game anywhere nearly as badly as Kagawa did.

But yeah, apart from that he can do everything Mata can....

 

[2mufc0]

Mata is a better passer, a better finisher, has better movement, has better technique (in short, he's a better footballer), is better in small spaces, can handle the quicker pace of the Premier League and doesn't shirk away from physical side of the game anywhere nearly as badly as Kagawa did.

But yeah, apart from that he can do everything Mata can....

That's a matter of opinion, which i disagree with.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

That's a matter of opinion, which i disagree with.

Which is within your right - though surely even if you think Kagawa is a superior footballer - the idea that he clearly struggled with both the pace and power of the Premier League isn't up for that much debate?

 

[sullydnl]

Mata has certainly shown a lot more for us than Kagawa did. At least he's capable of contributing when he isn't playing well, as opposed to Kagawa who apparently needed to have the team specifically designed to suit his exact requirements.

 

[2mufc0]

Which is within your right - though surely even if you think Kagawa is a superior footballer - the idea that he clearly struggled with both the pace and power of the Premier League isn't up for that much debate?

Mata has had a good run in the centre in his preferred position i haven't seen him exceed in any of those skills you mentioned, apart for getting into some good positions for the tap ins, but we have other players in the team for that job.

I agree Kagawa struggled physically but that was on the left wing where he was always going to struggle, he's not a left winger. If he was given the luxury of playing in his preferred position as Mata has I'm sure we would see a much improved Kagawa. I remember when he first signed for us he struck up a good partnership with RVP behind him then he got injured and never really got that position back.

I'm sure this has all been discussed to death on the forum and Kagawa is gone so not much point going any further. Imo Mata will be gone in a few years, he doesn't suit any of our preferred systems and LVG doesn't hold on to dead wood. Mata imo is a very good player but he needs to play in a certain system and style.

 

[2mufc0]

Mata has certainly shown a lot more for us than Kagawa did. At least he's capable of contributing when he isn't playing well, as opposed to Kagawa who apparently needed to have the team specifically designed to suit his exact requirements.

I don't get this theory either apart for the one game against Sunderland when he scored the first goal he hasn't contributed anything significant.

 

[Cassidy]

This guy has not been a £38m player in a United shirt.

 

[MoneyMay]

Mata is a better passer, a better finisher, has better movement, has better technique (in short, he's a better footballer), is better in small spaces, can handle the quicker pace of the Premier League and doesn't shirk away from physical side of the game anywhere nearly as badly as Kagawa did.

But yeah, apart from that he can do everything Mata can....

The bits in bold are the only bits I disagree with. Mata isn't very comfortable in tight spaces and it's a big reason as to why he's been in poor form for us this season and why he struggles in "progressive" systems. It contributed to Mourinho moving him to the right, which gave him that extra bit of space to work with so he doesn't have to worry about being out-muscled off the ball. Physically there isn't really much between the two, but Kagawa shields the ball better and offers himself as an outlet centrally, whereas Mata tends to drop deep and move away from potential duels because he's uncomfortable in congested space.

 

[Cassidy]

See the Leicster game and say Mata doesn't get out-muscled.
Also him being a better passer than Kagawa is debatable IMO I don't see much between the two in that sense.
Mata will get more goals, Kagawa will add more to the play and the team end up creating more.

I'm basing that soley on watching them for United too (not bringing Dortmund or Chelsea form into)
See Kagawa in UCL last season, Mata has not had that level of impact in a game IMO

 

[Offside]

See the Leicster game and say Mata doesn't get out-muscled.
Also him being a better passer than Kagawa is debatable IMO I don't see much between the two in that sense.
Mata will get more goals, Kagawa will add more to the play and the team end up creating more.

I'm basing that soley on watching them for United too (not bringing Dortmund or Chelsea form into)
See Kagawa in UCL last season, Mata has not had that level of impact in a game IMO

There is no debate. Mata has offered miles more than Kagawa did for us. Even though he could do more.

 

[Cassidy]

There is no debate. Mata has offered miles more than Kagawa did for us. Even though he could do more.

I don't think Mata so far hasn't offered much more than Kagawa in his first season (under Fergie).

EDIT:

CompGSSBGASHSGFCFSYCRC

Kagawa: Prem17363211092010

Mata: Prem 14164281172600


So he got one more goal in roughly the same no of apperances, its not miles more at all.

 

[Offside]

I don't think Mata so far hasn't offered much more than Kagawa in his first season (under Fergie).

He is more effective in terms of goals and assists and just a more confident and skilful player. Then again Kagawa was never bad for us but just wasn't doing enough, maybe if Mata doesn't step his game up a bit he could head to same way as Kagawa.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

The bits in bold are the only bits I disagree with. Mata isn't very comfortable in tight spaces and it's a big reason as to why he's been in poor form for us this season and why he struggles in "progressive" systems. It contributed to Mourinho moving him to the right, which gave him that extra bit of space to work with so he doesn't have to worry about being out-muscled off the ball. Physically there isn't really much between the two, but Kagawa shields the ball better and offers himself as an outlet centrally, whereas Mata tends to drop deep and move away from potential duels because he's uncomfortable in congested space.

It was more comparatively with Kagawa is what I meant - I found Kagawa to be incredibly poor when not given much space, and whilst I agree there isn't much physically between the two, but Kags really did seem to struggle with the overall pace and power of the league - which Mata obviously hasn't as he's been operating in it pretty succesfully for about 4 years now.

 

[Cassidy]

He is more effective in terms of goals and assists and just a more confident and skilful player. Then again Kagawa was never bad for us but just wasn't doing enough, maybe if Mata doesn't step his game up a bit he could head to same way as Kagawa.

EDIT:

Comp GS SB G A SH SG FC FS YC RC

Kagawa: Prem 17 3 6 3 2 1 1 0 9 20 1 0

Mata: Prem 14 1 6 4 2 8 1 1 7 26 0 0


So he got one more goal and the same number of assists in roughly the same no of apperances, its not miles more at all.

 

[Brophs]

Based on their respective performances for us, both he and Kagawa can sod off as far as I'm concerned. Kagawa left because he didn't do it and Mata looks to the going the same way, which would be a real shame.

 

[Offside]

EDIT:

Comp GS SB G A SH SG FC FS YC RC

Kagawa: Prem 17 3 6 3 2 1 1 0 9 20 1 0

Mata: Prem 14 1 6 4 2 8 1 1 7 26 0 0


So he got one more goal and the same number of assists in roughly the same no of apperances, its not miles more at all.

8 goals in 21 games (Mata) > 6 goals in 57 games (Kagawa)

 

[Pogue Mahone]

EDIT:

Comp GS SB G A SH SG FC FS YC RC

Kagawa: Prem 17 3 6 3 2 1 1 0 9 20 1 0

Mata: Prem 14 1 6 4 2 8 1 1 7 26 0 0


So he got one more goal and the same number of assists in roughly the same no of apperances, its not miles more at all.

Those stats you've posted don't make any sense. They have them down as 6 goals each?

 

[legball]

Mata and Kagawa? It's like debating who is the better player between Vidal and Strootman. They might be similar in style, but the gap in quality is quite significant. Mata has not shown it for United, but he's a better player than Kagawa is.

 

[Cassidy]

8 goals in 21 games (Mata) > 6 goals in 57 games (Kagawa)

I'll remind you what you responded to:

I don't think Mata so far hasn't offered much more than Kagawa in his first season (under Fergie).

He didn't play 57 premier league games under Fergie

 

[Cassidy]

Those stats you've posted don't make any sense. They have them down as 6 goals each?

Yeah I was talking about Kagawa in his first season vs Mata last season.
The point was:

I don't think Mata so far has offered much more than Kagawa in his first season (under Fergie).

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I'll remind you what you responded to:

I don't think Mata so far hasn't offered much more than Kagawa in his first season (under Fergie).

He didn't play 57 premier league games under Fergie

If you're deleting Kagaw's stint under Moyes from history you should do the same for Mata.

Based on the tiny sample of games this season Mata has - despite widespread criticism - been way more productive than Kagawa was at any point in his United career.

 

[Cassidy]

If you're deleting Kagaw's stint under Moyes from history you should do the same for Mata.

Based on the tiny sample of games this season Mata has - despite widespread criticism - been way more productive than Kagawa was at any point in his United career.

That is just not even true.

Also I'm not deleting Kagawa stint under Moyes, I was comparing both of their first seasons at the club.

Anyway point is I don't think Mata has been THAT great for us especially not for £38m. The notion he has been miles better than Kagawa too I think is overstated.

Its not a I think Kagawa is better debate, its a I think they BOTH have not been good enough for United but Mata seems to be getting some leeway where Kagawa didn't.

Under Moyes Kagawa never played 90 minutes in his preferred position ONCE.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

That is just not even true.

Also I'm not deleting Kagawa stint under Moyes, I was comparing both of their first seasons at the club.

Anyway point is I don't think Mata has been THAT great for us especially not for £38m. The notion he has been miles better than Kagawa too I think is overstated.

Its not a I think Kagawa is better debate, its a I think they BOTH have not been good enough for United but Mata seems to be getting some leeway where Kagawa didn't.

Under Moyes Kagawa never played 90 minutes in his preferred position ONCE.

I do agree they've both been a bit crap and I definitely don't think Mata's been miles better than Kagawa. He has been consistently more productive though. Including under Moyes, when he very rarely played as a 10.

 

[Cassidy]

I do agree they've both been a bit crap and I definitely don't think Mata's been miles better than Kagawa. He has been consistently more productive though. Including under Moyes, when he very rarely played as a 10.

I disagree with the consistency bit, he had a few good games last season but not consistently, equally Kagawa had a few good games in the UCL last season.
Anyway point is I don't think there has been much in it between them, however many will say Mata is miles ahead of Kagawa, apart from the price tag and the wave of euphoria Mata came with I tend not to agree.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I disagree with the consistency bit, he had a few good games last season but not consistently, equally Kagawa had a few good games in the UCL last season.
Anyway point is I don't think there has been much in it between them, however many will say Mata is miles ahead of Kagawa, apart from the price tag and the wave of euphoria Mata came with I tend not to agree.

Re the consistency, I'm talking about creating and scoring goals. Mata's never gone through the same kind of lengthy droughts that Kagawa went through in this regard.

 

[bosnian_red]

The productivity is one thing you can't criticise mata too much for... Its his overall game which leaves much to be desired. Doesn't get involved enough in games. He was fine against Chelsea and generally better then usual, but this season he's gone hiding in games and just pretty much kept possession, which was all that Kagawa did here last season. Difference is now we have other top class players to replace him so I'm fine with him being dropped, whereas last season the alternatives were Valencia and young of last year, so thats why I was always hoping Kagawa would get a run. They're the type of players who need the team built around them, but when you have players like di maria, rooney, etc, that's never going to happen.

 

[Cassidy]

Re the consistency, I'm talking about creating and scoring goals. Mata's never gone through the same kind of lengthy droughts that Kagawa went through in this regard.

In that sense yeah.
I really do hope we can get more out of Mata, one of my favourite players in the league before he came here, hopefully he can prove his worth.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

The productivity is one thing you can't criticise mata too much for... Its his overall game which leaves much to be desired. Doesn't get involved enough in games. He was fine against Chelsea and generally better then usual, but this season he's gone hiding in games and just pretty much kept possession, which was all that Kagawa did here last season. Difference is now we have other top class players to replace him so I'm fine with him being dropped, whereas last season the alternatives were Valencia and young of last year, so thats why I was always hoping Kagawa would get a run. They're the type of players who need the team built around them, but when you have players like di maria, rooney, etc, that's never going to happen.

On the whole Kagawa/Mata thing and what they bring to the role, what's been painfully absent from Mata's game has been the ability to pick a killer pass. The Kagawa debate has been done to death but on his rare good game if he got on the bal in the hole, there'd be a feeling of anticipation because you knew he had it in him to unlock the defence.

I just don't get that with Mata/ He just seems to dink little lofted passes, usually out wide. The pass to Di Maria early on was superb but what made it really stand out was how rarely he's produced that in his time at United.

 

[Kag]

It pains me to say it, as I rate this guy immensely, but if we're going to get the best out of Di Maria in the central attacking midfield role and pursue a proper 3 man midfield, then Mata's time here will be limited. He's too good to be a bench option and is fairly restricted in regards to where he can and can't play.

He's been very, very unlucky over the past 12 months and in truth, there isn't a great deal he has done wrong. This is the same guy that was Chelsea's best player two years running before Mourinho arrived with very specific ideas. Had Moyes remained and decided to build around Rooney, with Mata at #10, then things may have worked out differently. As of right now, I'm worried about him.

 

[bishblaize]

Its not a I think Kagawa is better debate, its a I think they BOTH have not been good enough for United but Mata seems to be getting some leeway where Kagawa didn't.

There is not one United player I can think of that had such a disconnect between their actual performances on the pitch and the level of support they got. Every supporting post you read about Kagawa was couched in terms of his potential ability and what he could do if given the chance.

Rarely did you hear about how his actual performances for us proved his worth in the following game. Which is because, while he had classy moments, the number of times that he turned a game, or bossed decent opposition, or pulled out a MOTM performance can be counted on one hand.

Certainly compare the criticism that Mata's getting now with what little criticism Kagawa got at the end of his first season, despite the gulf in performances of the teams, and I can't help but feel that its Mata who's getting the harder criticism.

 

[bosnian_red]

On the whole Kagawa/Mata thing and what they bring to the role, what's been painfully absent from Mata's game has been the ability to pick a killer pass. The Kagawa debate has been done to death but on his rare good game if he got on the bal in the hole, there'd be a feeling of anticipation because you knew he had it in him to unlock the defence.

I just don't get that with Mata/ He just seems to dink little lofted passes, usually out wide. The pass to Di Maria early on was superb but what made it really stand out was how rarely he's produced that in his time at United.

Yeah, I know what you mean. Hes shown that ability to pick out great passes at Chelsea like the one for Ba in the fa cup replay in 2013, but at united, he really hasn't produced and splitting passes yet. Hasn't really shown any creativity which we all thought we'd get with him. He has great movement off the ball so finds himself in pockets of space to grab a goal or keep possession, but on the ball, apart from having a good range of passing, hes really lacked something.

 

[KeninDC]

On Mata, if he was being used to play a more defensive role in the Chelsea game, that raises the question of whether or not that is the best use of his skill set. Seems you could have a less creative player in that role. Maybe it was the case of LvG adopting more conservative tactics for the Chelsea game, and as others have pointed out , perhaps his ability to play effectively at the top of the box was limited by Chelsea's tactics.

Still, he hasn't shown much more to me against WBA than he did against Chelsea, so I'm not convinced his underwhelming performance as a creative MF in these past two games can be attributed to tactics. Would like to see more one-twos that get a runner free in the box, as Chelsea did against us.

 

[marlowe78]

There have been moments when Mata has shown great talent for us but to me, they've been too infrequent. There have been too many games where Mata does little outside of cycling the ball or getting it out wide and he becomes pretty much invisible when he should be using his abilities to make an impact. I think a large part of this comes from a tendency to take the safer option instead of trying to penetrate the defense or thread a pass into a tight area, both of which he could do with his considerable skills.

I think the match with Chelsea was case in point. Mata wasn't bad IMO but he really didn't show enough ambition. When we set up in the final third, Chelsea gave a healthy amount of space in front of him where he could've tried to encroach on the goal or thread a pass to van Persie but he almost always tossed it out to Januzaj or Shaw. He also offers very little defensively, which is understandable considering he's smaller.

Mata on his day is valuable but in no way does he deserve to start over Rooney.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

I guess Mata will be replaced with Rooney today then. Although Rooney was always going to come back in, Mata's not really done enough to convince Van Gaal to keep him in the starting eleven anyway, in my opinion.

 

[Eric'sCollar]

Mata to set up or score the winner and make all the feckers eat their words.

Hugs.

 

[Devil may care]

One assist or goal wouldn't and shouldn't change anything.

 

[Eric'sCollar]

One assist or goal wouldn't and shouldn't change anything.

120 minutes has excused Fellaini from every other performance, so you never know.