Mata fits into the Adebayor, Berbatov, Podolski, Arshavin category.....players that can get you plenty of goals and assists but will be completely invisable for the majority of most games. These types of players don't last long at big clubs
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He's probably a bit better than those players you mention (the closest example is maybe Berbatov) but I broadly agree. Another way of looking at it is "stands out in a good but not great team that you don't watch week in, week out but looks too limited when put on the big stage". Before Chelsea fans get offended, by "big stage", I mean a team aspiring to win the league (not the cup side of the AvB/Di Matteo/Rafa era). Mourinho and, it seems, Van Gaal agree.
Has anybody noticed how Mata prominently features on official website interviews or in their initiatives? Either through his weekly blog, or some competition like that FB 60m fans thing or some interviews(today there is his interview of top 5 United players in his opinion), he is always there. I guess being liked by fans and having big player tag is key reason. Wonder if that will play a part if there is a thought of selling him.
I see him as one of the more 'marketable' players at club along with his abilities. Not that we have any dearth of players in either category, but still...
I see him as one of the more 'marketable' players at club along with his abilities. Not that we have any dearth of players in either category, but still...
I agree, and yet if you scroll through this thread, one of the recurring criticisms of Mata is that he lacks pace and slows us down. That video (and again I'm aware of the danger of drawing conclusions from a video,) suggests that he can thrive in a pace-driven attack, the sort of attack we've all been crying out for recently. Maybe it's all RVP's fault
He lacks pace, but he still thrives in a countering system. His ability to deliver a final pass into space is probably best in the league.I agree, and yet if you scroll through this thread, one of the recurring criticisms of Mata is that he lacks pace and slows us down. That video (and again I'm aware of the danger of drawing conclusions from a video,) suggests that he can thrive in a pace-driven attack, the sort of attack we've all been crying out for recently. Maybe it's all RVP's fault
The problem is that he also offers nothing defensively. Which you still need to do in the biggest teams.
A slower possession-based game doesn't suit him.
He's all about space. He has the space to work with on the counter. He doesn't when we're camped in the opposition's half. So he ends up slowing things down too much, playing too safe, and positioning himself badly.
If he was tougher, quicker and could defend, he'd be a terrific counter-attacking option for any side. He'd probably still be at Chelsea.
As it is - he doesn't have the full package for counter-attacking football or possession football in a top team.
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Sad that we havent seen the best in him. He is a wonderful player, I just hope he can find his best place or may be a better suite club even. Exchanging him for a fit again vidal or strootman wont be too bad idea.
It's confusing, I expected players like him to excel under LVG, same as RVP, let the shackles off but it is not happening.
On his performances for us I think that is where it is heading, get a more physical all rounder in there to help break stuff up when we over commit and the play breaks down given our gung ho style, we would still have the likes of Di Maria, Rooney, Januzaj and Pereira to play in the same role if he left. He just is not producing enough to even make LVG's decision difficult.
There just isn't room for Mata when you've someone like Rooney playing the same role as him who offers so much more to the team both attack and defensive. I really like Mata that's why it'll be terrible when he finally moves on but I'd honestly take a swap deal for him now for a player who would benefit us more. We're getting nothing near £38 million for him that's for sure, in fact if we just played Kagawa we'd have the exact same player but £38 million richer to spend else where, plain and simple a panic buy to keep the fans happy.
The problem for Mata is that he isn't explosive, he isn't dynamic, and we're a club who tend to only have out and out flair players who are explosive.
Di Maria fits this bill, Mata doesn't, and I think this is what Gary Neville meant when he kept reiterating that Mata 'wasn't a United player'.
I've long held out hope that Mata would come good and be used properly but I really think in order for it to work he literally needs the whole team built around him and that's never, ever gonna happen at Manchester United (or Chelsea).
I used to think if given the opportunity he'd rise to it but watching him recently I'm starting to agree with Neville.
He'd be great 2nd striker behind Romelu at Everton, and he'd start every match, maybe a move like that is what would be best for him?
Interestingly, what I said about Mata lacking any explosiveness or dynamism has also been true of RvP for the last two seasons now... I think it's very harsh on Mata not to include Van Persie in conversations about players who will score/assist but offer absolutely nothing else!
Di Maria fits this bill, Mata doesn't, and I think this is what Gary Neville meant when he kept reiterating that Mata 'wasn't a United player'.
I've long held out hope that Mata would come good and be used properly but I really think in order for it to work he literally needs the whole team built around him and that's never, ever gonna happen at Manchester United (or Chelsea).
I used to think if given the opportunity he'd rise to it but watching him recently I'm starting to agree with Neville.
He'd be great 2nd striker behind Romelu at Everton, and he'd start every match, maybe a move like that is what would be best for him?
Interestingly, what I said about Mata lacking any explosiveness or dynamism has also been true of RvP for the last two seasons now... I think it's very harsh on Mata not to include Van Persie in conversations about players who will score/assist but offer absolutely nothing else!
Will only be effective playing behind 1 striker. And this striker needs to be a hard worker so Rooney. He is small and weak but that's not the whole problem. Park was small and weak but knew how to manipulate his body to not get knocked over all the time and knew when to get stuck in and when to not force the issue. Unfortunately Mata is playing in the wrong league IMO.
I guess LVG should watch tapes of Chelsea's CL win and study the best way to use Mata because he used to be one of the best in the league.
I guess LVG should watch tapes of Chelsea's CL win and study the best way to use Mata because he used to be one of the best in the league.
Would be so fun to go back and read this thread after a game that Rooney has played in the 10 role. 3 weeks ago it was about getting Mata into the team, now it's cash in time.
I still think he will play an important role this season and hopefully next season in Europe.
I still think he will play an important role this season and hopefully next season in Europe.
People are just inventing excuses for Mata now. There's nothing to suggest having a team built around him would help him. He's a luxury player. A poor man's version of Ozil, who himself is a luxury player.
All the issues Mata's had with us were present when he was with Chelsea, but the difference is that he had confidence in his skill and was allowed to play with more freedom than under Mourinho and Van Gaal. Because of his deficiencies, I feel he's one of those players who needs a system built around him. And the system you have to build around him isn't one that's going to ensure stability IMO. Benítez's system got the best out of him primarily because he had little defensive work to do off the ball and he was allowed to float about. If there's one GIF that sums up his position of comfort, then it has to be this one:
FWIW, when Benítez took over at Chelsea, he started Oscar in his first two games. Had he been at the club for a longer period, I reckon he would have no longer had Mata as the main man.
Mourinho moved him to the right last season and though his pressing did slightly improve, he still looked uncomfortable. I think that's the best way to utilise him in our system though because he's not going to provide the necessary skills to help our two centre-forwards. I'd love for him to play like the #10 we need him to be, but I doubt his ability to do so. He's slow on the counter; looks uncomfortable when pressed; doesn't link midfield and attack; and slows down our play. The problem is that he doesn't have the control and skill players like Silva and Özil - I'd even argue Kagawa - have which is why he's not a first team player for me. And although Rooney isn't my ideal #10, I'd still have him as first choice because he's well-rounded, which isn't to say he doesn't have his limitations. Both do, but one suits us better.
Still a quality player obviously.
Don't think he's adaptable enough to be a LVG type player. At the moment he looks like another Kagawa who can only play one position, in which he isn't going to be first choice.
Want to see Mata becoming more Influential. Maybe the signings have taken something out of his performance but want to see him being a great alternative to Di Maria with his running and creative output.
Would love him to score against Chelsea and shut the people up who 2 weeks ago were calling for him to be ahead of Rooney but now think he should be off in January.
Sorry but this is insane. He's a top class player. For two seasons he was the best player in arguably the best league in the world. Apart from Berbatov none of those players have that standard.
This just shows how much a bad season can make people forget about your class.
A bad season? I would say it has been a below par 2 weeks.
Everyone was singing his praises a few weeks ago. He was very good for us last season when he arrived, especially under the circumstances. Started this season carrying his fine scoring form over too.
Yeah but I mean I've seen Mata in Chelsea and this player is a top top player. He's on par with DDG, Di Maria, Rooney, RVP when it comes to player caliber. To compare him with the likes of Adebayor......
He can play left and right. Just had some bad games there with Moyes but he did really well for Chelsea on the left
I agree, can't believe the stick he is currently getting. I fully understand peoples view that he might not work out for us in the long run but when people start comparing him to players like that, there is no point debating.
Some of the shit he copped yesterday when Silva scored was laughable. Fans couldn't just enjoy the great goal, it all came back, Mata couldn't do that, we got the shit Spaniard etc.
I agree, I don't want to see him out wide but in the right game, if need be, he can definitely do a good job.
Juan Mata at his best for Chelsea was better than David Silva has ever been. Mata was simply fecking fantastic at Chelsea and for me only Suarez could claim to have been better than him.
On what basis? They do/did completely different jobs.
Are you saying Mata has been a better level than Bale, Modric, Rooney, Augero, Ronaldo, Henry etc... If so I'm phoning the men in white coats!!
Not Van Persie, Rooney, Ronaldo, Aguero, Toure or anyone else?I meant the period where he was at this best at Chelsea, so Ronaldo, Henry, Modric etc. weren't in the PL then. During that time Suarez, Mata and Bale were the top 3 players for me and Mata and Bale were very close with Suarez slightly better.
Lol no worries, yes for a short time spell he was one of the best players in the league. Never reached those heights again IMO as needs to have the team built around him a bit like Riquelme and Kagawa.
So between 2011 and 2013? Mata was brilliant, yes, but RvP IMO was easily the best in the league for those years. Suarez wasn't at that level yet, had a great season but wasn't as good as RvP until he surpassed him last season. Van Persie scored 37 goals and 30 goals for those two seasons, was unplayable in those 2 years. Mata was up there in the top 3 though, probably, but I don't think he was ever the best player.
The type of player he is though you need to build your team around him, having him as the main player, and with Di Maria here he won't be that and so he'll struggle because of his lack of pace/strength.
If he does start against Chelsea i'd love for him to play well against his old team. Hope he is up for it.
The problem is that he's not going to be influential if he doesn't fulfil the role we need him to play, and there's no way he'll be an alternative to Di Maía because he has a completely different skill set. Before Mourinho, he was way too comfortable at Chelsea and was given so much freedom. Take a look at the GIF above of his awful pressing. That's what's best for him, but it's not going to do the team wonders. I'd love for him to prove me wrong though.
Mata was excellent for Chelsea in 12/13, but Silva's influence is greater because he has the necessary skills to dictate play, i.e., play in congested areas between the lines.
Interestingly, for Spain, Silva is picked ahead of Mata because he works hard defensively, is patient, shields the ball very well, and can function easily in tight spaces.
It's also interesting all the revisionism going on; people claiming that it was a stupid transfer and that we never needed him. Now that may be true, but go back to the thread covering his transfer, and you'll struggle to find any dissenting voices amongst all the excitement over his imminent transfer. Is it really so hard to believe that he's just going through a bad patch of form? Does nobody remember Rooney's form for the first half of the 2010-11 season?
You won't find a bigger fan of Rooney than me but just wait until he plays in the 10 role again, 90% on here will be screaming for Mata's ability in that role. I truly believe this phase will blow over and Mata will go on to have a good season for us. In saying that, I don't think he is doing bad, it's just he hasn't been David Silva and for some reason, that is unacceptable to a lot of United fans.
What ability? He's doing exactly what Rooney gets absolutely slaughtered for. Passing the ball wide and then bum rushing into the box except he's worse at it. Rooney at least proved very adept at link up play and building up a very good understanding wih Di Maria and Herrera. He'll never be David SIlva but asking him to be creative is not too much to ask of a supposed #10 is it? Espcially as he doesn't provide anything else to the team.
Yeh you're right now that I think about it, Mata has no ability at all, horrible excuse for a footballer.
It's truly amazing how quick he has gone from a great player to an absolute waste of space.
I honestly believe he will have a good season and hopefully prove extremely valuable when we have to deal with Europe next season.
What ability?
Genuine question because I can't remember his Chelsea games and have seen nothing at United to make me think he's better suited to playing at 10 than Rooney. What does he bring to the role that Rooney does not?
Mata deserves to be criticised because he's not performing the basic function of a #10. Rooney did a poor job of playing between the lines last season - and I'm not a fan of him as a #10 anyway - but he's put in better performances this season. And his positioning has a lot to do with that. You can have unreal ability - it still won't stop players like Oscar and Willian from displacing you. He has to adapt to Van Gaal's system which is a pro-active system like Mourinho's.
Mata has better vision, passing, and a better first touch than Rooney, but unless you give him lots of freedom I don't think he's capable of putting in 7/10 performances for us consistently. I think he's too good of a player to have on the bench. He failed under Mourinho in a pro-active systems because it's obviously demanding - his athleticism is something that can be questioned. The same thing is happening under Van Gaal, and it doesn't help that he's not adapting to the changes. I understand it's hard given his deficiencies but surely after last season, he'd try a bit harder to improve his positioning?
This was the type of freedom - awful pressing - that he got at Chelsea pre-Mourinho:
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