At least we won the league with Veron... Mata will always be a panic Moyes signing.
8
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 35
- Goals
- 10
- Assists
- 4
- Yellow cards
- 2
- Status
At least we won the league with Veron... Mata will always be a panic Moyes signing.
The longer time goes on, the more and more it looks like that.
Most of us (including myself) got completely taken in by the whole 'buzz' of us signing 'world class' Juan Mata. But in hindsight, it wasn't a very well thought out transfer was it? We already had Rooney, were struggling to fit Kagawa into the team, and a proven manager like Mourinho was quite willing to let him go. So spunking £38 mill on a #10, who couldn't get into the team of one of our direct rivals, probably wasn't the cleverest thing to do (and tbf I think a few people did try and point that out at the time, @noodlehair was one iirc?)
You do get the feeling that Moyes, and the club, just saw the name and went for it. They basically got suckered into the same hype that we as fans did. I doubt we even did any sort of scouting on him, I mean, why would we have had any scouts watching a player that up until those last 6 months we would never have dreamed would become available.
Can't speak for others. I didn't necessarily see it as a poor signing, but was sceptical of why we'd bought him and I think I did point out at the time that he'd been poor at Chelsea for the first half of that season (rather than it all being Mourinho's fault for being racist against Spanish playes, or whatever the convenient/stupid theory was at the time).
I think the first real alarm bells were when Moyes said "I'm going to try him in some different positions" as that made it 100% obvious we had no idea why we'd actually bought him. No thought at all had gone into his recent performance levels or what he could and couldn't bring to the team.
That said, I still hoped he'd get his act together at United and would be able to improve us. It's like with Kagawa though. Each game seemed to make that look less likely rather than more likely, and after a while the excuses begin to get very thin.
I think the first real alarm bells were when Moyes said "I'm going to try him in some different positions" as that made it 100% obvious we had no idea why we'd actually bought him. No thought at all had gone into his recent performance levels or what he could and couldn't bring to the team.
That said, I still hoped he'd get his act together at United and would be able to improve us. It's like with Kagawa though. Each game seemed to make that look less likely rather than more likely, and after a while the excuses begin to get very thin.
you beat me to it. next time, please give me the honours. cheers.
Anyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyywaaaaaaaaay.
It's October. Mata hasn't been nearly as poor as people are suggesting, but I suppose it will come as a concern to him that with our summer signings all fit, he doesn't appear to have a starting place.
Nevertheless, it's up to each player to earn a spot. If they don't, I'd like to think they won't play. Only problem is this rule arguably doesn't appear to apply for RVP, but that's for another thread.
I still maintain that our biggest problem has nothing to do with the front six. It has everything to do with our defensive play which has repeatedly let us down this year. Yesterday was a perfect example, as we came out flying in the second half. 15 minutes or so later, we allow a completely atrocious goal and it kills our momentum and confidence moving forward. Players are too concerned about making a mistake, and as a result, they end up making plenty anyway.
I am convinced that if we could ever sort out our defensive problems, our attack will be more than fine. Mata included.
It's October. Mata hasn't been nearly as poor as people are suggesting, but I suppose it will come as a concern to him that with our summer signings all fit, he doesn't appear to have a starting place.
Nevertheless, it's up to each player to earn a spot. If they don't, I'd like to think they won't play. Only problem is this rule arguably doesn't appear to apply for RVP, but that's for another thread.
I still maintain that our biggest problem has nothing to do with the front six. It has everything to do with our defensive play which has repeatedly let us down this year. Yesterday was a perfect example, as we came out flying in the second half. 15 minutes or so later, we allow a completely atrocious goal and it kills our momentum and confidence moving forward. Players are too concerned about making a mistake, and as a result, they end up making plenty anyway.
I am convinced that if we could ever sort out our defensive problems, our attack will be more than fine. Mata included.
Kagawa is history man, let it go.
I think that's a pretty fair assessment.
Fans defending Ozil
The balance of the team is off, we need somebody to protect Blind first and forest, but to be a top dm you need to be able to defend and be good in obsession. In Spain or Italy he would be a better fit, but he is too slow. Once he pushes up if he doesn't win the ball he doesn't have the pace to recover. The reason Jones pushed so far up was because the Blind had pushed onto the man on the ball and left his man and they got passed him so easy. We need Blind/ Carrick (or Felliani) and Herrera, we need to play the way Juve's midfield operates. With Carrick and Felliani it isn't really feasible because they are so sow so we need to adapt it, bit no leaving Blind alone basically.
Secondly the defence needs to be coached. The players seem to panic when the opposition are attacking.
It is time of RVP to be dropped, he offers very little now. Falcao needs to be starting.
The balance of the team is off, we need somebody to protect Blind first and forest, but to be a top dm you need to be able to defend and be good in obsession. In Spain or Italy he would be a better fit, but he is too slow. Once he pushes up if he doesn't win the ball he doesn't have the pace to recover. The reason Jones pushed so far up was because the Blind had pushed onto the man on the ball and left his man and they got passed him so easy. We need Blind/ Carrick (or Felliani) and Herrera, we need to play the way Juve's midfield operates. With Carrick and Felliani it isn't really feasible because they are so sow so we need to adapt it, bit no leaving Blind alone basically.
Secondly the defence needs to be coached. The players seem to panic when the opposition are attacking.
It is time of RVP to be dropped, he offers very little now. Falcao needs to be starting.
You maid misstakes, or is this a parroty?
Defence is a problem, but at least half of that is because we have so many attacking players in the team. Our two centrebacks and Blind are literally the only players who don't spend the whole game attacking...and even Blind spends half the game attacking, and yesterday Jones kept trying to move into midfield.
It's a team set up to attack in order to compensate for not having a defence, which is why when Van Gaal comes out and starts going on about defensive discipline, it doesn't really add up. The first thing he needs to do if he wants that is pick a team and system that's actually capable of having it. You could have Vidic and Rio in their prime as our centrebacks, and Makelele in Blind's place, and we'd still be far too open and poor defensively.
The other thing is, for a team that's set up to be so dependent on attacking and with so many supposedly top class attacking players, we don't actually create that many chances. We seem to be limited mostly to players scoring wonder goals or launching shots in from outside the box which either fly in or luckily deflect to one of our forwards. Di Maria is the only forward player who I think has anywhere near done himself justice this season. Our second most dangerous attacking player has been Rafael Da Silva.
He's a ghost out there, not particuarly lazy but just doesn't seem to get involved enough, either out of possession and sometimes in possession, lacks physicality which is an odd comment to aim at a skillful technical player (usually not their forte) but it's noticeable moreso from him than anyone, i guess we're starting to see why Mourinho let him go, he should be worried for his future here, he's playing in his preffered position and still being hauled off nigh every game.
Veron was a bigger mystery - he had just played a key role in winning Serie A (recognized as the strongest league at the time) and was talked about as a potential rival to Zidane as best player in the world. Mata, on the other hand, looks like someone who belongs at a level slightly below the top tier - like Chelsea during his spell there. I doubt any of the clubs we consider peers will be in for him when we try to offload him.
The lad has only been given one start. How many has Mata had in comparison and he has contributed very little. His only good game came at home against QPR. Januzaj hasn't performed to the levels he did last season but equally he hasn't been given as many opportunities.
Mata fan boy alert. I can back that up. Have a look at his performances last season to see what he is capable of. He has also stood out like a sore thumb whenever he has played for the under 21's. Obviously Mata is the better player at the minute. There would be something seriously wrong with him if a 19 year old player was more complete than him. My point is Januzaj has the potential to be a far better player than Mata ever was/will be. He won't reach this potential being sat on the bench. Mata's performances don't warrant him having a place in the team. We would be much better off giving Januzaj the sort of opportunities Mata has been given and been unable to take.
So by that logic equal, McNair should be our first choice CB ahead of Jones and Smalling. Mata has been pretty woeful this season, but you're conveniently forgetting his past achievements. If Januzaj goes on to hit the heights that Mata did while with Valencia and Chelsea, I'll be very happy.
No. Jones has been our best defender this season. Why would McNair be first choice ahead of him? Strange example.
Mata's past achievements count for nowt. What relevance is it that he was once one of the best players in the league? Going by that logic RVP should be the first team on the team sheet based on his past achievements. What matters is the present. Mata has not been himself for the last 18 months.
Fine, use Smalling (although McNair has arguably impressed more than Jones). The point still stands. And you're right about the present: at present, Adnan Janujaz looks nowhere near ready to be replacing Mata as Rooney's backup.
The future is also important too. My whole point is that Mata isn't that significantly a better player than Januzaj to warrant benching him and affecting his development in the long run. I'm not suggesting that Januzaj should play ahead of Rooney (who is at present a far better player) but that he should play ahead of Mata who is only marginally better. If you look at their form since Januzaj first broke into our first team last season I think he has been the better player. I don't see what is so outlandish about suggesting that he should be ahead of Mata in the pecking order. It would undoubtedly benefit us more in the long run.
We'll just have to disagree then.
Fair enough.
So, what happened to him? Did he turn shit over night?
I think he's gonna lose his place in the first 11 for the Chelsea game probably to Fellaini. The worse thing is that I would be deserved.
I think he's gonna lose his place in the first 11 for the Chelsea game probably to Fellaini. The worse thing is that I would be deserved.
I just feel it's one of those things from fans. When he isn't there, we want him there, when he is there, we want better.
He is a great player, offers so much, lacks in certain areas, like any other footballer. Would be devastated to see him leave.
He is a great player, offers so much, lacks in certain areas, like any other footballer. Would be devastated to see him leave.
Passenger. Did jack all. Can't believe he stayed on for as long as he did.
Mr treacle shoes, when you watch him run it's shocking how slow across the ground he is, be seriously worried for us if he starts against Chelsea or City to be honest, the energy of Chelsea and the power of City will see his pocket picked far to often.
Playing with Mata behind Rooney and Falcao wouldn't solve the issue we have at the moment. The main issue is that Mata has failed at positioning himself centrally to offer our players an outlet, and that's because he can't shield the ball and doesn't excel in tight spaces. This is the exact same player who played for Chelsea, but the difference is that his deficiencies are exposed further when he's not given a "free" role. What we need in the #10 role is a game changer and Mata doesn't fit this profile because of his style. As much as I hate to say this, he's a luxury player and I'm not sure he has a future at the club - he's far too good to be a squad player - unless we see a drastic change in our system or his style.
Pretty much, not to that extent though. I'll be disappointed if it doesn't work out for him here, but he'll have to take responsibility for his failure. The best thing he can do is try and move to congested areas and make a difference for us, rather than remain in open space where he can't do much. Fwiw, Herrera would be an even better option to have as a #10 which again shows that you don't need to be the best playmaker in the world to excel in the role.
I was delighted when we signed Mata because I convinced myself he had enough pace to play out wide - the realization that he is a pure number 10 has been a disappointment really. Add to that a few less than convincing performances as a number 10 and it's becoming a little worrying.
3 weeks ago, everyone was going on about him and his goal record and now after two sub par performances, his time at Old Trafford has been a major disappointment?
Give it time lads, might work out, might not but give it time. He hasn't even been here a year yet.
Give it time lads, might work out, might not but give it time. He hasn't even been here a year yet.
I'd be interested to see how he'd do in the 4-4-2 Citeh play with 2 of Rooney/RVP/Falcao up front, Di Maria out left, Mata narrow on the right and Herrera + Blind/Carrick as the 2 midfielders. With Rafael up and down the right wing, 2 dangerous strikers and Herrera + Di Maria surging forward to his left, he might have the runners/options he needs to create, and sometimes it's easier to find space in that triangle between the other team's fullback, CM and CB that Iniesta lives in for Spain and Nasri tends to take up for Citeh. Silva just floats everywhere now, the annoying genius that he is.
I’m not sure whether he understands his role in that team, or he just isn’t the type of player we need in this system.
He either stays too high up the pitch, or too deep just to simply pass it wide. He rarely plays in the areas I would like him to operate. Not influencing games enough. Interesting whether he will start against Chelsea, Personally I would drop him and play 4-3-3.
He either stays too high up the pitch, or too deep just to simply pass it wide. He rarely plays in the areas I would like him to operate. Not influencing games enough. Interesting whether he will start against Chelsea, Personally I would drop him and play 4-3-3.
I just watched this review of his last season at Chelsea:
Now, I'm well aware of the dangers of judging a player based on a youtube video, but given that he was their player of the year, there was obviously some substance behind the style, so to speak. What I can't understand is that very little of what you see in this video (incisive passes, surprising strength on the ball, movement and tricky dribbling,) has been evident in his time here. Why is that? Has he been shorn of confidence? In the case of RVP, it's clearly a case of declining skills, undoubtedly related to age and injuries. What's the reason for Mata's being a shadow of his recent self? I'd love to hear what any Chelsea fans have to say about this? Is the Mata that we have seen sleepwalking around the pitch with United in any way similar to the one who played for Chelsea?
For the record, I love Mata, and still think he has it in him to shine for us, but time may well be running out.
Now, I'm well aware of the dangers of judging a player based on a youtube video, but given that he was their player of the year, there was obviously some substance behind the style, so to speak. What I can't understand is that very little of what you see in this video (incisive passes, surprising strength on the ball, movement and tricky dribbling,) has been evident in his time here. Why is that? Has he been shorn of confidence? In the case of RVP, it's clearly a case of declining skills, undoubtedly related to age and injuries. What's the reason for Mata's being a shadow of his recent self? I'd love to hear what any Chelsea fans have to say about this? Is the Mata that we have seen sleepwalking around the pitch with United in any way similar to the one who played for Chelsea?
For the record, I love Mata, and still think he has it in him to shine for us, but time may well be running out.
I've said before I blame Mourinho, he destroyed the player Chelsea had at his best
Well thats quite depressing. 'Our' Mata hardly does any of the the things in that video that make him look so good. That video was the Mata I seem to remember at Chelsea, and the one I was so excited about signing. Whats happened to his dribbling and passing? He also looks a lot harder to knock off the ball in that video,
Surely its a confidence thing? Either way, its so incredibly frustrating.
No he didn't. He may have affected his confidence a tad, but he did not destroy Mata. If he'd had him rotting in the reserves for 3 years I'd get what you're saying, but we're talking about Mata only playing a bit part role as opposed to being a key player. If that's destroyed Mata mentally, then he's the one with the problem, not Mourinho, LVG, Moyes or anyone else.
They're just highlights to be fair.
And a lot of that work appears to be when he (and his team-mates) have space to run into.
A lot of dribbling over the halfway line into space before passing it, and going forward for a return, which has never been a problem for him.
We don't really play that way.
And a lot of that work appears to be when he (and his team-mates) have space to run into.
A lot of dribbling over the halfway line into space before passing it, and going forward for a return, which has never been a problem for him.
We don't really play that way.
What's strange is that he looked very good when he first came here. He was often the only player offering any creativity when we were playing dire football under Moyes, someone who actually looked like they had top class ability. I really don't think it's a lingering confidence problem from his time at Chelsea, because he's shown that he can be very good here.
And like I said above, if it was by some chance a confidence problem from his time at Chelsea, it's Mata's who's got the problem.
I would be surprised to see him start vs Chelsea. Probably Fellaini will take his place with Ander behind the strikers.
As poor as he's been, I really don't want to see Fellaini starting ahead of him. I mean, Mata's been fairly anonymous at times and I can sort of see some of the sense in Fellaini playing...but even then, there's just something that doesn't sit right with Fellaini starting ahead of Mata.
Don't think that's a possibility any of us would've even considered back in April even if we'd been told Mata had physically lost his two legs.
True enough, but you'd struggle to cobble together a one-minute based on what he's done this year. And many of those highlights lead to goals, so there is some substance to them. But as I said before, the Mata in those videos, and the Mata we see now barely resemble each other. Blaming it on Mourinho is just ridiculous, as one would presume that Mata would be professional enough to move on from that episode. As well, I don't think formation/playing style is the reason either, as truly class players (as Mata certainly appeared to be while playing for Chelsea,) can adapt to different styles. I'm hoping it's just a case of form being temporary. In any event, I'd love to hear what Chelsea supporters have to say about this.
He's not finding his rhythm but I am fully confident he will eventually. He's a world class player and just a few years ago he would be considered better than the likes of Di Maria (at that time).
Could be that he is a confidence player but whatever it is, he has a lot of quality to just be "past it"
Could be that he is a confidence player but whatever it is, he has a lot of quality to just be "past it"
I don't think this is true at all. I think quite a number of players (even very good players) can look amazing in a certain system and more average-poor in others. For some, it only needs very subtle differences too.
Some players are very adaptable though.
- Status