That's a fair point but haven't we spent 150m on Pogba, mkhi, matic and Herrera because they're capable of overcoming a press?
Jose Mourinho | 2017/18 Assessments | Poll Added
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TBF their performances last season didn't suggest as much.
Pogba especially - he certainly has the ability but I've lost count of how many times was he dispossessed by taking too long on the ball and doing unnecessary tricks etc.Yeah was saying this to my mate at work who supports Chelsea. Can't remember him playing such direct football when he was there, or anywhere else for that matter.
Some people say that they don't care about how the team plays as long as we're winning. Last year we played incredibly negative in the majority of our games and it showed result wise that our players cannot do the required style from Jose. In how many games against mid/lower table teams did we get a goal on only to get the whole team behind the ball to defend a 1-0 lead to some absolute horrendous sides? How many times we lost that lead because Jose decided that's the appropriate way to handle games? We were playing Europa League games against incredibly average teams who were embarrassing us even at our own stadium. Yes we won the whole tournament but it was embarrassing watching us from the group stages where we had to scrape a second place.
I'm sorry but to me such an approach is not adequate with a club of our statue. Now I get why a lot of Real Madrid fans were moaning because of Mou. I don't want to even remember our games against the top 6 because the majority of them felt so damn embarrassing. We don't have a perfect roster but to claim that last year we had to go all out negative against Arsenal, City or Liverpool who either have worst teams than us or awful issues across whole areas of the pitch is absolutely bonkers.
I'm dreading this season will turn to more of the same. We haven't addressed anything but the DM role and it's all way too worrying. There's people who actually think Jose will remain here long term but to me if he doesn't improve things this season I can't see him fulfilling his contract. We should be fighting for 3rd place easily with the roster at our disposal regardless of the glaring issues we still have to address. Finishing 6th, scoring less goals than Jason Bournefeckingmouth and having to adapt a negative approach to teams of every level is not acceptable for Manchester United and I pity the people who think otherwise.
I'm sorry but to me such an approach is not adequate with a club of our statue. Now I get why a lot of Real Madrid fans were moaning because of Mou. I don't want to even remember our games against the top 6 because the majority of them felt so damn embarrassing. We don't have a perfect roster but to claim that last year we had to go all out negative against Arsenal, City or Liverpool who either have worst teams than us or awful issues across whole areas of the pitch is absolutely bonkers.
I'm dreading this season will turn to more of the same. We haven't addressed anything but the DM role and it's all way too worrying. There's people who actually think Jose will remain here long term but to me if he doesn't improve things this season I can't see him fulfilling his contract. We should be fighting for 3rd place easily with the roster at our disposal regardless of the glaring issues we still have to address. Finishing 6th, scoring less goals than Jason Bournefeckingmouth and having to adapt a negative approach to teams of every level is not acceptable for Manchester United and I pity the people who think otherwise.
It was definitely used this way in the EL final but not in many other games. We hardly ever did it from the start of a game anyway (thank feck) Hoofball always seemed to be a Plan B. As @JohnnyKills said, it would be preferable if it was a Plan E or F.
fecking hell Mourinho winds me up massively but that post is ridiculous.
How many times did we lose the lead last year? I reckon twice I can think of, Arsenal and a Everton. You make out like it happened every week. It probably did happen more frequently but it wasn't a constant issue. Our issue was we didn't score enough which I hope has been sorted.
That's the spirit.
Good post. I'm leaning the same way aswell. I have been wondering to myself why I haven't been as buzzing for the season to start this time around and I think this is mainly it.
I don't even mind so much if it means we will be up challenging for the league, but while the likes of Martial and Mata are ignored for poor players like Lingard it will most likely result in us being in a scrap for Top 4 rather than the league title.
All this being said, we should give Mourinho the chance to prove us wrong. We've only played one game this season, against arguably the second best club side of the past two decades. So there are extenuating circumstances.
Personally I don't think hoofball is a legitimate tactic against anyone but a team which is demonstrably better than us - and I don't think any team in the PL fits that category.
Personally I don't think hoofball is a legitimate tactic against anyone but a team which is demonstrably better than us - and I don't think any team in the PL fits that category.
Last season doesn't count or something? I mean performances don't change overnight.
I think even those who are concerned are still hoping Mourinho proves them wrong - nobody wishes for him to fail (no matter how much that nonsense gets peddled).
Bournemouth, Swansea, Anderlecht (both games), Celta, Rostov
Starting the post with such a statement proves that you either didn't watch us at all or were rewatching 2015/2016 season again thinking it's the new season. No need to complete reading the post after the bold phrase.
Pretty sure there was a Stoke game in there, too.
We have a manager that's more concerned with not losing a game than with winning one.
I think it's ridiculous to imply that we scored less goals than Bournemouth because we've got worse players than them and not to do the fact that the manager went extremely negative, anti-football and constantly pulling the whole team behind the ball after 1 goal leads throughout the season. In a lot of big games we went straight for draws without even trying to score. Jose thought we could do what he did in Chelsea but the fact to the matter is our players clearly aren't that developed or simply can't excel in such a style of football. Maybe you're the one that actually didn't watch us last season trying to imply we've played good and open football in the majority of our games when we actually didn't. That's why everyone was worried we'd end up having an atrocious season if we lost the Europa final. Most of our good games are very easy to list from last season /people were constantly clinging on that Chelsea game at OT last season/ unlike the ones we struggled heavily in who were countless only in a tournament like the Europa league, let alone the league.
Loses to giants such as Feyenoord and Fenerbahce. Barely beating the legendary Zorya Luhansk 1-0 at home, 2-1 aggregate vs Rostov, 3-2 aggregate playing extra time vs Anderlecht, 2-1 aggregate vs Celta Vigo and not going out in the last second by sheer luck. We had to chase result in our last game in the group in order to qualify! We were shaking in our boots in extra time against Anderlecht and then in the game against Celta we shat bricks letting them boss us and score.That's kinda a very similar trend through all of the elimination matches excluding Saint-Étienne? Wonder why? Why didn't we smash all of these super average teams like we did with Saint-Etienne? Maybe because the manager had zero faith in the team and decided to force them to play ultra defensively. We almost bottled the Europa run multiple times against average teams most people forget they even exist. Clearly I'm spoiled and we played enjoyable open football that left people wanting more. You know maybe if Jose ever let the players to close games with 2 goals leads instead of ordering them all to fall back behind the ball with 1-0 leads we would have scored more and looked better. Playing on the counter attack /something we can't do/ versus average teams we should be steamrolling without clinging on 1 goals leads... yeah go figure.
Despite not being perfect I prefer the brand of football José delivers to Van Gaal's.
Hard to disagree with anything. Feel the same
I think one thing no one should be complaining about is the approach in big games. It is one of the defining features of a Mourinho team so we shouldn't have hired him if that is an issue for us.
I think it's ridiculous that we scored less goals than Bournemouth, yes it is. But maybe you should look at the 2016 table, we scored less goals then 9 teams in the league (including Southampton, West Ham) and only 1 goal more then 17th placed Sunderland (5 more than relegated Newcastle), the point is we have a problem scoring goals 4 years running, and Mourinho clearly improved the team in that regard (4th best team in the league in creating chances), if you can't see that maybe you should rewatch the season or something, not come here and drum with this kind of nonsense. Using bald numbers like that doesn't paint the whole picture.
The second part of your post, reading how you refer to teams like Feyenoord and Fenerbahce you clearly have no idea what are you talking about. Winning a cup is not a walk in the park and Europa League showed just the season before how difficult it is to win it (Dortmund and Liverpool ring a bell). Every team is rising the game for cup matches, you expecting we should have smashed teams because we are Manchester United show how much drivel you spouted in that post.
Our problems when we come up against sides who put men behind the ball: Slow buil up, no vision in the final third, not enough bodies commited forward (largly because of the manager's insistence on having 5 players at the back at all times) hence easy to contain and defended against.
Against the bigger teams, I see a trend where we start positively but then after we concede a chance or two, wo go back to our shell (our shell being camping in our own half and hoofing hopeful long balls to our target men). The Super cup final is a great example of this.
It would've actually been much easier to stomach the defensive tactics if we atleast were able to put together decent counter attacking moves and score enough goals that way. What worries me the most is the lack of attacking ideas and how quickly we resort to hoofing long balls up field
Also, the sooner Jose starts putting more trust in the defenders and let them do the defending rather than picking attacking players based on how much they help out in defense the better. Hopefully that will be the case this season.
Against the bigger teams, I see a trend where we start positively but then after we concede a chance or two, wo go back to our shell (our shell being camping in our own half and hoofing hopeful long balls to our target men). The Super cup final is a great example of this.
It would've actually been much easier to stomach the defensive tactics if we atleast were able to put together decent counter attacking moves and score enough goals that way. What worries me the most is the lack of attacking ideas and how quickly we resort to hoofing long balls up field
Also, the sooner Jose starts putting more trust in the defenders and let them do the defending rather than picking attacking players based on how much they help out in defense the better. Hopefully that will be the case this season.
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Game is evolving but Mourinho isn't. I'm afraid if he keeps forcing this frigid, ultra defensive style of his it might cause him to lose the dressing room because even tho our more talented and technically gifted players are being complaint with his tactics for now, they might get fed up with it soon enough...
A very long post that doesn't explain how we played negative in the "majority" of our games except by listing some games from the last 3 months of the season that extended for about 10 months.
@Tempest two great posts dude. Feel pretty much the same for the most of it. I actually feel he is more defensive than what LVG was. LVG's team just didn't have that player to make something happen with all the possession. He didn't pull 8 players back in to defence every time possession was turned over.
Hm, was Liverpool away game that far into the season?
So one game in the first 7 months of the season is considered the majority of our games ?
The fact is in from Aug to March we only played 2 negative matches : Liverpool and Everton, but the rest of our matches we played a very good football in every other match not just the known Stoke and Burnely matches who got stuck in the head because of the wasted chances, but except for these 2 games we played all games in attacking style that can't be described as negative.
Starting from Zlatan's suspension in the Bournemouth game we started to change to a more negative and defensive approach for the last 3 months of the season when the majority of our known negative matches lie in this period: Rostov, Anderlecht away ( I consider the Old Trafford game was the last game we played in attacking style in the season ), Celta and sadly the majority of the big matches in the season lied in this period as well.
So saying we played the majority of our games in a negative approach is a nonsense. The season lasted for 10 months and we played 64 matches, so when you list about 10 or 12 matches most of them has been played in the last 3 months of those 10 that's hardly the majority here.
Though I at times can be critical of Mourinho's attacking prowess, the man is still brilliant at setting up a solid defensive structure and building a squad for it.Sir Alex Ferguson said:
I expect us to challenge for the title, with City as favourites by a narrow margin – though that depends on Kompany's fitness.
That said, I think we need a good start to the Premier League campaign.
That quote...it strikes me as one of those 'truisms' - just because we all remember it, it must be true.
Reasonably sure that the team with the best goal difference or second best tends to win the league. Leicester had 2nd, Chelsea had 2nd best, Chelsea had 2nd best before that so on and so forth.
And the best way to boost goal difference is to score more.
I'd have no problem with Jose's cowardly, defend-first tactics if they worked in the premier league. Or if there was some body of evidence suggesting it worked in the premier league. But there isn't. In this league, the team that scores the most tends to finish 1st or 2nd in the league.
To me Jose is just scared. He needs control, and feels the best way to do so is to not take risks. Again - if that actually worked fine - but it patently doesn't.
That's what I don't understand. Jose, the coaches, hell even Ed must see what we do on the pitch isn't producing results, and yet we still persist. Arsenal and Liverpool have just in the last 24 hours showed why, in this league, you go out to win games.
Will Jose change? Doubt it.
Reasonably sure that the team with the best goal difference or second best tends to win the league. Leicester had 2nd, Chelsea had 2nd best, Chelsea had 2nd best before that so on and so forth.
And the best way to boost goal difference is to score more.
I'd have no problem with Jose's cowardly, defend-first tactics if they worked in the premier league. Or if there was some body of evidence suggesting it worked in the premier league. But there isn't. In this league, the team that scores the most tends to finish 1st or 2nd in the league.
To me Jose is just scared. He needs control, and feels the best way to do so is to not take risks. Again - if that actually worked fine - but it patently doesn't.
That's what I don't understand. Jose, the coaches, hell even Ed must see what we do on the pitch isn't producing results, and yet we still persist. Arsenal and Liverpool have just in the last 24 hours showed why, in this league, you go out to win games.
Will Jose change? Doubt it.
That is not the insight to make from these first two games. If anything it justifies Mourinho's pragmatism.
We were defensive against City at home as well, only when we were trailing in the 2nd half we started a tad more offensively.
We weren't. On the contrary going with an offensive formation costed us everything this day. We started the match with only one DMF, Fellaini, against Silva and De Bruyne and that led to us losing any possession on the ball and costed us 2 goals as no one was covering the area in front of the defense. That's the only time in my life that I have seen Mourinho playing a big game in premierleague without 2 DMFs.
We became good when Herrera is introduced as another midfielder so we were able to retain possession of the ball.
It's rarely that simple as just being defensive or offensive. Being offensive is more than just playing strikers upfront. Our play in the final third, movement off the ball , patterns of play, overlaps/underlaps, structure etc are just as important as personnel. I don't see a clear offensive pattern under Mourinho. I see a manager concerned about not conceding first, and then hoping one of the stars will create something upfront.
Have you even watched real under jose, they were one of the best counter attacking team scoring a record goals in la liga. Many real fans remember jose fondly. His real madrid side were brilliant to watch and I would love if we play like that.
What is this related to my post ? I was replaying to us being defensive in the City home game last season not analysing Mourinho general system. If you think we were defensive in this game by playing only one DMF in front of the goal then there's no offensive formations in football then.
You're free with your opinions on the guy, but twisting the facts doesn't help much. We played very good football last season from Aug till the end of Feb, then switched to a more defensive approach in the last 3 months after Zlatan got suspended then injured. That's what happened and what we all saw during the season. Saying anything else is either a very short memory or twisting the facts because of having agenda against the man.
No we didn't. Since you mentioned City, they completely outplayed us, at home - and were in general control until Bravo's brainfart let us in the game. KDB had the freedom of OT, and we couldn't get near the ball in the first half. Second half we huffed and puffed without really troubling their backline.
After that game, we got beat by Feyenoord (1:0) and Watford (3:1) without playing particularly well against either. After Leicester (W) and Stoke (D), we completely parked the bus at Anfield (D), and didn't register a shot at goal. Less than ideal really. We followed that game by a 4:0 loss at Chelsea - a less than optimal performance I'd say. Then we got beat by Fenerbahce, without particularly playing any good football. This was the first week of November.
We played well against Swansea, Arsenal and Tottenham but to claim we played very good football from Aug till end of Feb is a baseless lie.
Did people expect Mourinho to suddenly change his ways? Something he's been doing since his Porto days? Really?
Anyway, I don't mind the football being played. But what I'm disappointed with is our ability to counter attack. After seeing his Real and Chelsea sides, I thought we'd finally counter effectively again, but last season was a disappointment with regards to that. Hopefully signing Lukaku makes us more deadly on the counter. Pogba gets a peavey striker who can he can pick out now.
Anyway, I don't mind the football being played. But what I'm disappointed with is our ability to counter attack. After seeing his Real and Chelsea sides, I thought we'd finally counter effectively again, but last season was a disappointment with regards to that. Hopefully signing Lukaku makes us more deadly on the counter. Pogba gets a peavey striker who can he can pick out now.
Is 3 premier league titles evidence enough?
I explained what happened in City game exactly but I assume you wasn't concentrating enough because your first replay was on a complete different thing so I'll have to repeat again, we played with only one DMF in this game, Fellaini, against their Silva and De Bruyne leading to us losing possession of the ball of the completely and that was the mistake of us going with that offensive formation from the start. It's madness to play against Silva and De Bruyne with only one DMF in field especially when his partner Pogba does zero to none defensive efforts. We only played well when Herrera was introduced as a second DMF beside Fellaini, giving us a stable midfield that we could play, so we weren't defensive. We started with an offensive formation that failed to contain the City midfield and thus lost the game.
I love again how your argument in these discussions like all those who talk about our "heavily defensive approach" is by bringing some few random matches from a long period of matches ( 7 months ) then take them as the base of the discussion.
The matches you have mentioned are about what ? 4 matches ? In a period of 7 months ? What a joke. From these matches you have mentioned the only match we played defensively and negatively is the Anfield game. We played the Fenyoord game in Netherlands with a mixed formation, and Watford game was never a defensive game from us, we lost because of using Fellaini and Rooney as a partners for Pogba ( the same mistake of City game ), and in Chelsea game we were even the team with more possession and shots, not saying we didn't deserve the defeat but it was our defense who costed us this game, not that we were playing defensive as stats prove otherwise :
http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/37670362
You have 64 games, 10 months of football. Till you prove that half of these games were played in a defensive negative approach, not just bringing some random games here and there, then what you're saying is clearly twisting the facts to suit your agenda.
If anything it justifies Mourinho's pragmatism.
Indeed. Had to check you weren't quoting a post from a year ago!
I hope to be pleasantly surprised tomorrow with swashbuckling, attacking football, providing many goals and much entertainment. And 3 points of course.
Cant believe people are denying that we played much better in big games under LvG than we have under Mourinho. He reminds me of Moyes in that aspect.
All of his title winning teams scored the most or second most goals in the respective seasons.
Goals win the premier league. He's getting older and more conservative.
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