Jose Mourinho | 2017/18 Assessments | Poll Added

[shaky]

And this doesn't bode well for our champions league prospects in any foreseeable future. In there you have to play the big boys at some points and with Mourinho's record there isn't much to look forward to.

I haven't checked yet but his record in the CL in the past 5 or so years since returning to England is probably mediocre to average.

He's only played in 2 full CLs since returning to Chelsea. One semi final defeat by Atletico, one last 16 defeat to PSG on away goals. Both games he drew in the 1st legs, away from home, which will probably distress you. Got them through the group stage before he left in 2015. (Also, one victorious Europa league campaign and the current 100% campaign. ) Worrying times ahead indeed.

 

[shaky]

I apologise if I'm asking for too much, but may you please make a similar stat for the mini 6 Home record.

Tottenham 13
Chelsea 12
Liverpool 11
Man Utd 8
Arsenal 8
Man City 6

 

[Santoryo]

Here's an even bigger sample if you want. Mourinho 17 years in management, 8 league titles across 4 countries. He knows what he's doing. His job isn't to please everybody. His job is to win things and his methods clearly work.

Is this supposed to be your argument in the face of damning facts? Blood Christ.

If you have time we can also research LVG list of achievements in his illustrious career yet it still didn't change the fact that he had become incompetent. I'm showing you a recent and very consistent pattern in regard to Mourinho's results against the big away sides and your want to list me his resume as to what he achieved to justify ignoring some pretty chocking stats.

If you're going to keep deflecting the issue and shift the goal post because you genuinely don't have any rebuttal, then please don't bother.

 

[SirAF]

He's only played in 2 full CLs since returning to Chelsea. One semi final defeat by Atletico, one last 16 defeat to PSG on away goals. Both games he drew in the 1st legs, away from home, which will probably distress you. Got them through the group stage before he left in 2015. (Also, one victorious Europa league campaign and the current 100% campaign. ) Worrying times ahead indeed.

 

[shaky]

Is this supposed to be your argument in the face of damning facts? Blood Christ.

If you have time we can also research LVG list of achievements in his illustrious career yet it still didn't change the fact hat he had become incompetent. I'm showing you a recent and very consistent pattern in regard to Mourinho's results against the big away sides and your want to list me his resume as to what he achieved to justify ignoring some pretty chocking stats.

If you're going to keep deflecting the issue and shift the goal post because you genuinely don't have any rebuttal, then please don't bother.

I've made plenty of points in other posts. Feel free to read them or ignore them at your leisure.

 

[Santoryo]

How can anyone just dismiss nearly three years of results? As stats go I'd say it covers a much bigger period of time than you usually get.

Baffling isn't?

Lots of spinning, mental gymnastics and goal shifting going on.

Trying to dismiss these stats in the pretense that context is being ignored is something embarrassing to write.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

How can anyone just dismiss nearly three years of results? As stats go I'd say it covers a much bigger period of time than you usually get.

What does this even mean?!?

 

[adexkola]

He's only played in 2 full CLs since returning to Chelsea. One semi final defeat by Atletico, one last 16 defeat to PSG on away goals. Both games he drew in the 1st legs, away from home, which will probably distress you. Got them through the group stage before he left in 2015. (Also, one victorious Europa league campaign and the current 100% campaign. ) Worrying times ahead indeed.

His approach in both ties was even more depressing. Something that absolutely has to change.

 

[shaky]

Jeez. You lot make David Moyes look like Mr Optimistic.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Here are some stats from another three consecutive PL years in big games against the "big four" (i.e. back when Spurs were shit).

2009/10
Liverpool 0-2 Loss
Chelsea 0-1 Loss
Arsenal 3-1 Win
City 1-0 Win

2010/11
City 0-0 Draw
Liverpool 1-3 Loss
Arsenal 0-1 Loss
Chelsea 1-2 Loss

2011/12
Liverpool 1-1 Draw
Arsenal 2-1 Win
Chelsea 3-3 Draw
City 0-1 Loss

Sir Alex Ferguson averaged just one away win each season (albeit with one season where we didn't win any of these fixtures)

He didn't beat Chelsea or Liverpool even once in any of these three seasons.

 

[breakout67]

Just make shite up and hope it sticks; like the 'big games' myth as if winning big games is some indication of a successful season (hint it isnt).

Just to add on to what @Pogue Mahone said let's look at SAF record against Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal when he won 3 league titles in a row. This was when the Premiere league was considered at its peak because there were so many strong teams in the league so don't give me shite about how the top 6 are now amazing or whatever.

2006/7:
W2 D2 L3, 1 win away from home

2007/8:
W5 D2 L1, 1 win away from home

2008/9:
W3 D2 L3, 1 win away from home

If you are still so far up your own arse that you cant see the trend, lets move to later years where City replaced Liverpool as a top team.

2010/11:
W6 D1 L3, 1 win away from home

2012/2013:
W3 D2 L4, 2 wins away from home

If you are not stubborn, but just an idiot then lets make things more simple for you by looking at the Champions last year and their record against the top 6.

W7 D1 L5, 1 win away from home

Games against rivals is a coin toss and the difference between a good and bad result can be from one moment. Big teams have players than can hurt you, which means that you will definitely lose to your rivals, especially away from home where they have the backing of the fans and a psychological edge.

We will definitely lose to a top 6 side this season, and it doesnt mean that we are shite and the manager is clueless. We will also get played off the park in some of these games because top teams have the quality to do that. We will also play other top teams off the park because we have the quality to do so.

 

[SirAF]

Here are some stats from another three consecutive PL years in big games against the "big four" (i.e. back when Spurs were shit).

2009/10
Liverpool 0-2 Loss
Chelsea 0-1 Loss
Arsenal 3-1 Win
City 1-0 Win

2010/11
City 0-0 Draw
Liverpool 1-3 Loss
Arsenal 0-1 Loss
Chelsea 1-2 Loss

2011/12
Liverpool 1-1 Draw
Arsenal 2-1 Win
Chelsea 3-3 Draw
City 0-1 Loss

Sir Alex Ferguson averaged just one away win each season (albeit with one season where we didn't win any of these fixtures)

He didn't beat Chelsea or Liverpool even once in any of these three seasons.

Now, that's surely "damning"?

 

[RedDevil@84]

Here are some stats from another three consecutive PL years in big games against the "big four" (i.e. back when Spurs were shit).

2009/10
Liverpool 0-2 Loss
Chelsea 0-1 Loss
Arsenal 3-1 Win
City 1-0 Win

2010/11
City 0-0 Draw
Liverpool 1-3 Loss
Arsenal 0-1 Loss
Chelsea 1-2 Loss

2011/12
Liverpool 1-1 Draw
Arsenal 2-1 Win
Chelsea 3-3 Draw
City 0-1 Loss

Sir Alex Ferguson averaged just one away win each season (albeit with one season where we didn't win any of these fixtures)

He didn't beat Chelsea or Liverpool even once in any of these three seasons.

Such a negative manager. Throw his statue out to please the caftards.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It's almost as though it's actually quite difficult to go to a ground like Anfield and win. Football, eh? Bloody hell.

 

[Dobbs]

What does this even mean?!?

I didn't think I could make the point any simpler but here goes.

Footballers and managers are judged on such a short term basis. So for example after two weeks of the season Rooney had apparently proved people wrong. Mkhitaryan is being hailed as world class because of his stats. That's after just a few weeks.

For once here we have stats covering nearly a three year period. As good a sample as you'll get in football. Yet you want to discard them? Nonsense stuff.

Here are some stats from another three consecutive PL years in big games against the "big four" (i.e. back when Spurs were shit).

2009/10
Liverpool 0-2 Loss
Chelsea 0-1 Loss
Arsenal 3-1 Win
City 1-0 Win

2010/11
City 0-0 Draw
Liverpool 1-3 Loss
Arsenal 0-1 Loss
Chelsea 1-2 Loss

2011/12
Liverpool 1-1 Draw
Arsenal 2-1 Win
Chelsea 3-3 Draw
City 0-1 Loss

Sir Alex Ferguson averaged just one away win each season (albeit with one season where we didn't win any of these fixtures)

He didn't beat Chelsea or Liverpool even once in any of these three seasons.

What's your argument? That because SAF was shit against the big teams in his latter years it's ok for Mourinho to do the same?

SAF's reputation as an attacking, adventurous manager was sealed way before he entered that later more conservative period.

 

[dichinero]

The desperation of the excuses reached new levels when Wenger was name dropped to excuse José.

 

[SirAF]

The desperation of the excuses reached new levels when Wenger was name dropped to excuse José.

Do you, realistically, see any other managers getting close to Wenger's tenure these days?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I didn't think I could make the point any simpler but here goes.

Footballers and managers are judged on such a short term basis. So for example after two weeks of the season Rooney had apparently proved people wrong. Mkhitaryan is being hailed as world class because of his stats. That's after just a few weeks.

For once here we have stats covering nearly a three year period. As good a sample as you'll get in football. Yet you want to discard them? Nonsense stuff.

Why is "nearly a 3 year period" "as good a sample as you'll get in football". That literally makes no sense. Can we not take a sample of 4, 5, 6 or 7 years? They are all, by definition, better!

What's your argument? That because SAF was shit against the big teams in his latter years it's ok for Mourinho to do the same?

SAF's reputation as an attacking, adventurous manager was sealed way before he entered that later more conservative period.

That "later more conservative" period you mention also happened to be a period with the most sustained success in the history of the club. Coincidence?

 

[dichinero]

Do you, realistically, see any other managers getting close to Wenger's tenure these days?

My point is that, despite my opinions on José, he should not be compared to Wenger. Using Wenger to justify him is sad. I don't rate the man that much but he deserves better than that.

 

[Santoryo]

The desperation of the excuses reached new levels when Wenger was name dropped to excuse José.

It's actually quite scary the length to which some would go to excuse something as bloody obvious and well known as Mourinho being a negative manager especially in big games.

All the straw grasping in this thread has actually become quite hilarious.

 

[SirAF]

My point is that, despite my opinions on José, he should not be compared to Wenger. Using Wenger to justify him is sad. I don't rate the man that much but he deserves better than that.

The point was that Wenger is just used as an example of a dying breed, he's literally one of the last ultra long-term managers around - hence he is mentioned.

It's actually quite scary the length to which some would go to excuse something as bloody obvious and well known as Mourinho being a negative manager especially in big games.

All the straw grasping in this thread has actually become quite hilarious.

I don't think many posters are contesting that Mourinho can be defensive in the big matches - we are saying that it is a fine approach and has and will yield him results.

 

[Stacks]

Here are some stats from another three consecutive PL years in big games against the "big four" (i.e. back when Spurs were shit).

2009/10
Liverpool 0-2 Loss
Chelsea 0-1 Loss
Arsenal 3-1 Win
City 1-0 Win

2010/11
City 0-0 Draw
Liverpool 1-3 Loss
Arsenal 0-1 Loss
Chelsea 1-2 Loss

2011/12
Liverpool 1-1 Draw
Arsenal 2-1 Win
Chelsea 3-3 Draw
City 0-1 Loss

Sir Alex Ferguson averaged just one away win each season (albeit with one season where we didn't win any of these fixtures)

He didn't beat Chelsea or Liverpool even once in any of these three seasons.

Well at least we could score right?

The average would change had you added 2013. Thats a 33.33333% win ratio from 2011-13 with 17 goals scored

2013
Liverpool 2-1 win
Chelsea 3-2 win
City 3-2 Win
Arsenal 1-1 Draw

 

[dichinero]

It's actually quite scary the length to which some would go to excuse something as bloody obvious and well known as Mourinho being a negative manager especially in big games.

All the straw grasping in this thread has actually become quite hilarious.

At the end of the day, it's a forum of opinions and it is actually admirable and somewhat cute that some fans will just take it just because it is José. Nothing he does is to be questioned, even though other managers will be called out. Shades of the mountains of excuses when we played 8 at the back against the mighty Middlesbrough. To some, that was tactical genius.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Well at least we could score right?

The average would change had you added 2013. Thats a 33.33333% win ratio from 2011-13 with 17 goals scored

2013
Liverpool 2-1 win
Chelsea 3-2 win
City 3-2 Win
Arsenal 1-1 Draw

And you can see the improvement in results as Fergie put the finishing touches to the next (and final) iteration of his team. Something people like you are crucifying Mourinho for failing to do in his first season in charge. Go figure.

EDIT: I see you chose to start analysing that win ratio in 2011. Despite me handing you data which begain in 2009. How predictable.

 

[GrandJury]

Here are some stats from another three consecutive PL years in big games against the "big four" (i.e. back when Spurs were shit).

2009/10
Liverpool 0-2 Loss
Chelsea 0-1 Loss
Arsenal 3-1 Win
City 1-0 Win

2010/11
City 0-0 Draw
Liverpool 1-3 Loss
Arsenal 0-1 Loss
Chelsea 1-2 Loss

2011/12
Liverpool 1-1 Draw
Arsenal 2-1 Win
Chelsea 3-3 Draw
City 0-1 Loss

Sir Alex Ferguson averaged just one away win each season (albeit with one season where we didn't win any of these fixtures)

He didn't beat Chelsea or Liverpool even once in any of these three seasons.

Shhhhhhh you'll go against the media narrative that United teams used to go to any game away from home, play all out attacking football and boss the other team.

 

[SirAF]

At the end of the day, it's a forum of opinions and it is actually admirable and somewhat cute that some fans will just take it just because it is José. Nothing he does is to be questioned, even though other managers will be called out. Shades of the mountains of excuses when we played 8 at the back against the mighty Middlesbrough. To some, that was tactical genius.

Get real. The agenda AGAINST Mourinho is far far worse. You have certain fans that would never be able to accept him just because they are "purists" and would rather play "beautiful" and lose than to win ugly - makes me vomit.

 

[Dobbs]

Why is "nearly a 3 year period" "as good a sample as you'll get in football". That literally makes no sense. Can we not take a sample of 4, 5, 6 or 7 years? They are all, by definition, better!



That "later more conservative" period you mention also happened to be a period with the most sustained success in the history of the club. Coincidence?

Look at my words you quoted. As good as it gets "in football." It's football, everything and everyone gets judged on the short term. So using stats collected over a three year period is very fair. Most managers would love to be judged over three years than the usual three months.

Either way you want to dismiss those stats. Because for some reason his last year at Chelsea and his first year here don't count! I understand you want to defend the manager but maybe it's time to be a bit more objective.

In the three years of SAF you highlighted we won a league and a league cup. Decent but "the most sustained success" it wasn't. If anything the decline was starting at that point.

Anyway what your argument is there I don't know. Using SAF's poor record towards the end to justify Mourinho today? It's rethink time.

 

[SirAF]

Look at my words you quoted. As good as it gets "in football." It's football, everything and everyone gets judged on the short term. So using stats collected over a three year period is very fair.

Either way you want to dismiss those stats. Because for some reason his last year at Chelsea and his first year here don't count! I understand you want to defend the manager but maybe it's time to be a bit more objective.

In the three years of SAF you highlighted we won a league and a league cup. Decent but "the most sustained success" it wasn't. If anything the decline was starting at that point.

Anyway what your argument is there I don't know. Using SAF's poor record towards the end to justify Mourinho today? It's rethink time.

1 league title in three attempts is not a poor record.

 

[André Dominguez]

Mourinho has clearly past his prime as manager, but he's still a top manager that with the right conditions he will build a very solid squad. But players need to adapt to a very specific tactical profile: they must accept that they are chasing the ball and covering zonal spacing more than having the ball, and this is not easy for some players.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Look at my words you quoted. As good as it gets "in football." It's football, everything and everyone gets judged on the short term. So using stats collected over a three year period is very fair.

Either way you want to dismiss those stats. Because for some reason his last year at Chelsea and his first year here don't count! I understand you want to defend the manager but maybe it's time to be a bit more objective.

In the three years of SAF you highlighted we won a league and a league cup. Decent but "the most sustained success" it wasn't. If anything the decline was starting at that point.

Anyway what your argument is there I don't know. Using SAF's poor record towards the end to justify Mourinho today? It's rethink time.

Fergie's "conservatism" began when he took on Queroz long before the three year period I'm talking about. It was the basis for the "attack attack attack" and "four four two" chants. In the latter half of his career Fergie became a lot less gung ho than in his early years and his record in Europe improved as a result. Interestingly, this also coincided with Mourinho's arrival in the Premier League.

My argument here is obvious. At least as obvious as I can make it. Away games against the likes of Liverpool are tricky. Even the best managers around can't keep winning the majority of them, season after season, after season. And you don't need to cast your mind back years to get your head around this. Just looks at Conte's away record last season!

None of this matters, though. This place is full of stubborn cnuts who don't care about context or mitigating circumstances. All they want to do is crucify our manager, given half a chance. It's incredibly fecking tiresome but ho hum, whatever floats your boat.

 

[breakout67]

Get real. The agenda AGAINST Mourinho is far far worse. You have certain fans that would never be able to accept him just because they are "purists" and would rather play "beautiful" and lose than to win ugly - makes me vomit.

The Martial Fan Club are out in full force to criticize, Martial played this game so they cant use that against him so they concoct another 'criticism'.

There's no need to actually discuss the tactics; just call him negative because it fits the narrative and rolls off the tongue.

I havent seen one single poster extensively and convincing tell us HOW to win that game. Just 'attack more' or something. The only people ive seen give a meaningful analysis gave a reasoned view of the game ie. 'we lost some key battles and couldnt move up the pitch often enough, but did well to get the point'.

 

[Minimalist]

I think the lack of goals, coupled with lack of even looking like scoring is what differs Mourinho's output in big games from the majority of Ferguson's matches. Even if the end results makes it look somewhat similar. But that's subjective and going off my memory which may be incorrect - I'm not looking at stats or a spreadsheet to prove it.

That said, towards the end of Ferguson's reign, ridden by Zombie football at times, it certainly wasn't pretty in a lot of games.

 

[SirAF]

The Martial Fan Club are out in full force to criticize, Martial played this game so they cant use that against him so they concoct another 'criticism'.

There's no need to actually discuss the tactics; just call him negative because it fits the narrative and rolls off the tongue.

I havent seen one single poster extensively and convincing tell us HOW to win that game. Just 'attack more' or something. The only people ive seen give a meaningful analysis gave a reasoned view of the game ie. 'we lost some key battles and couldnt move up the pitch often enough, but did well to get the point'.

Martial only played because Rashford had a knock, don't forget that

But yeah, sigh.

 

[Minimalist]

Fergie's "conservatism" began when he took on Queroz long before the three year period I'm talking about. It was the basis for the "attack attack attack" and "four four two" chants. In the latter half of his career Fergie became a lot less gung ho than in his early years and his record in Europe improved as a result. Interestingly, this also coincided with Mourinho's arrival in the Premier League.

I know it's a side topic but picking up on this, I always seen it beginning with AC Milan knocking United out in 2007. From then on, goals still flowed but it seems obvious in hindsight that Ferguson had reacted to this disappointment with a different strategy (probably influenced from Queiroz as you say).

 

[Dobbs]

1 league title in three attempts is not a poor record.

Referring to the record against the other big teams. Domestically and in Europe. It wasnt great towards the end. The football was getting progressively worse, we were falling further and further behind in Europe. Only the RVP sticking plaster brightened it up.

It certainly wasn't the period Fergie or United's rep was built on. So it makes no sense to use that period to justify the shit on a stick football Mourinho reverts to today.

 

[AshRK]

Its funny how all the negative attention have gone to Jose as if he lost against Pools and yet Conte, Wenger and Klopp are all getting a free pass.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I know it's a side topic but picking up on this, I always seen it beginning with AC Milan knocking United out in 2007. From then on, goals still flowed but it seems obvious in hindsight that Ferguson had reacted to this disappointment with a different strategy (probably influenced from Queiroz as you say).

Yeah, that's a good point. In my head, it's always been put down to Queroz because of the "Querozzzzzzz" memes but there's probably more to it than that, you're right.

 

[SirAF]

Referring to the record against the other big teams. Domestically and in Europe. It wasnt great towards the end. The football was getting progressively worse, we were falling further and further behind in Europe. Only the RVP sticking plaster brightened it up.

It certainly wasn't the period Fergie or United's rep was built on. So it makes no sense to use that period to justify the shit on a stick football Mourinho reverts to today.

How many matches could you argue Mourinho has played "shit on a stick football" this season? Twice. Southampton and Liverpool. Result? 4/6 points.

 

[SirAF]

Yeah, that's a good point. In my head, it's always been put down to Queroz because of the "Querozzzzzzz" memes but there's probably more to it than that, you're right.

Tbf, Queiroz was credited with the tactics for beating Barcelona in 2008.

 

[Theonas]

At the end of the day, it's a forum of opinions and it is actually admirable and somewhat cute that some fans will just take it just because it is José. Nothing he does is to be questioned, even though other managers will be called out. Shades of the mountains of excuses when we played 8 at the back against the mighty Middlesbrough. To some, that was tactical genius.

Cute is one way to put it. I think it's cult like. When you are the best thing that ever happened to Chelsea trophies wise at least and they still sacked him twice. When you end Barcelona's dominance with a formidable league title and you still get lynched by your own fans. When teams that you actually did serve brilliantly turn on you and have such conflicted feelings towards you, it really is beyond odd the cult following he enjoys here.