Are you suggestion these players wouldn't elevate us? Salah has scored goals consistently now in 2 sides. What are Pogba level players? City aren't littered with Pogba level players. They have barely one official world class player. If you need World Class players in every position, you aren't very good manager. 300 million is plenty. We saw how strong Juve were with far less expenditure.@Stacks
I don't understand your point? You've mentioned a few names there that play in the same position (Wasn't Salah 40m?) added in Silva struggling to adapt to England right away with Mane struggling for form and Sanchez doing whatever the feck he's doing. Silva has two top players in his path, we don't so he could play into form. Mane still has contributed 7 goals in 10 games but guess what, if he was off form, we still have Martial and Rashford.Sanchez has downed tools because he was supposed to move but broke down last minute
Its ok to look back and cherrypick random transfers but only two of those play in the same side and haven't shown they can play together which shows how rare those signings are.
Are we meant to take 300m worth of chances? Is that viable? Or are we meant to buy Pogba level players whicg means 300m isn't enough to fill out a squad that finished 7th, 5th and 6th in 3 of the last 4 seasons?
Our squad was so mediocre that it's disgusting.
Its not like we spent 300m extra than Chelsea or City, hell there were times last season when our front 3 didn't cost us a penny.
Jose Mourinho | 2017/18 Assessments | Poll Added
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Cause if he did the the job he's doing at Napoli with a bigger budget it would make for a great combination. We could finally play decent football while being able to play City without our tail between our legs.Then why the hell would you want someone like that replace Mou? Crazy risk and the last thing we need right now is take risks...
True. I am just contrasting that United could not afford to built a title challenging side which is absurd. Who else has needed to spend 184 million on 2 players to challenge for their title?
Can't be true. Definitely recall hearing his name years ago in Serie B with other clubs.
I have a question, let’s say that next season City continue this sort of form or god forgive improve on what they are doing already, do people think Jose can close that gap with say a 200mil investment? Or is he just going to have to hope City drop off and he can keep grinding out results?
Because personally I don’t think he can, and right now I think we have to throw a Hail Mary and either he reinvents what he does and actually step up and prove he’s as good as many think and want him to be or we try something different.
As really I’m not sure I want Jose to keep getting handed money which is another issue.
Because personally I don’t think he can, and right now I think we have to throw a Hail Mary and either he reinvents what he does and actually step up and prove he’s as good as many think and want him to be or we try something different.
As really I’m not sure I want Jose to keep getting handed money which is another issue.
The hope is that he will create a United version of Chelsea 04-06 or Madrid 11-12. The hope could become realistic only if Jose is allowed to invest over 200m in the summer transfer window. Or even 300m. In prices adjusted for inflation in football, Chelsea 04-06 and Madrid 11-12 were the most expensive squads in history. At Chelsea Jose spent over 700m on new signings (in prices ajusted for inflation in football).
Sooo throw money at the problem until something sticks? I think you could give him 700mil and he wouldn’t close that gap.
Neymar and Mbappe cost 400m. If we had them, chances are there would be no gap.
So how will you decide when he's been adequately backed?
If, if, if. If Moyes wasn't clueless we would have won the PL with him. If LVG wasn't deluded we would have won CL with him. That's a massive IF and taking the risks based on "IF" is stupid. The same could be said about Klopp. He was good at Dortmund and based on your logics, he should have won something playing brilliant football by now. Reality is I don't think he improved Liverpool at all during his 3 years.
@Stacks
No I don't think the Mane, Sanchez or Silva would improve us all that much unless we cherrypick the forms of players alongside transfer fees?
Mkhi is the perfect example, this time last year he was the answer to our prayers, his fee would be on the list you just quoted yet 12 months later he's a flop.
Thats the problem, Pep knows what works since every attacking player was signed with Pep in mind. He doesn't have to spend a fortune on Pogba since he already has KDB. He doesn't have to find an upgrade on Mata when he has Sterling there.
If we spend 300m v Arsenal then we should be above them but not against a side who spend more than we do.
Not against a side who spent more than we did on specific areas of weakness v our generally average overall squad.
Being 2nd to them isn't outrageous nor does it devalue the worth of our present squad.
No I don't think the Mane, Sanchez or Silva would improve us all that much unless we cherrypick the forms of players alongside transfer fees?
Mkhi is the perfect example, this time last year he was the answer to our prayers, his fee would be on the list you just quoted yet 12 months later he's a flop.
Thats the problem, Pep knows what works since every attacking player was signed with Pep in mind. He doesn't have to spend a fortune on Pogba since he already has KDB. He doesn't have to find an upgrade on Mata when he has Sterling there.
If we spend 300m v Arsenal then we should be above them but not against a side who spend more than we do.
Not against a side who spent more than we did on specific areas of weakness v our generally average overall squad.
Being 2nd to them isn't outrageous nor does it devalue the worth of our present squad.
I believe Jose just needs to adjust his methods and he'd be fine. I'm not having a go at him at all, I'm not even mad at losing to Bristol City (these things happen in sports and Bristol City deserved their victory). However, I'm depressed about the fact that we seem behind other teams in terms of coaching.
Now Jose's back room team does a good job, however he needs fresh input. United have the resources to keep his band of loyal staff together, whilst still hiring other people.
We definitely need someone to work with our attackers for example, I'm sorry they are all not as bad as some think.
What puzzles me is that for such a pragmatic man, he can't see that he needs more help in this regard. It's really not a big deal, and is something which is entirely in our control. SAF didn't excel at every aspect of coaching, but he wasn't a mere coach - he was the manager. If you're managing and you see something needs to be fixed, you hire people with the expertise to do this.
Throwing money around for other players won't help that much if our coaching is not up to the required standards that you need at the top in football nowadays.
I don't have the technical knowledge of you guys here, just saying what my eyes are seeing.
Short of someone having a good talk with him about this, I really don't know what the solution is.
Anyway we carry on and hope for the best.
Now Jose's back room team does a good job, however he needs fresh input. United have the resources to keep his band of loyal staff together, whilst still hiring other people.
We definitely need someone to work with our attackers for example, I'm sorry they are all not as bad as some think.
What puzzles me is that for such a pragmatic man, he can't see that he needs more help in this regard. It's really not a big deal, and is something which is entirely in our control. SAF didn't excel at every aspect of coaching, but he wasn't a mere coach - he was the manager. If you're managing and you see something needs to be fixed, you hire people with the expertise to do this.
Throwing money around for other players won't help that much if our coaching is not up to the required standards that you need at the top in football nowadays.
I don't have the technical knowledge of you guys here, just saying what my eyes are seeing.
Short of someone having a good talk with him about this, I really don't know what the solution is.
Anyway we carry on and hope for the best.
Unfortunately many including myself don’t think that would be the case at all.
Those who mention Jose's success with Chelsea and Real also need to remember the state he left these clubs in and how his successors managed to do better than him. Jose used to be a serial winner, and I really hope he is still one, although I am almost sure that Pep will win the league next season too.
So that means he had success with Chelsea and Real, and when he left, his immediate successors did better than him, meaning he left the teams in a fairly good state right? So there is no problem.
Unlike Moyes and LvG who won practically nothing major (bar an FA Cup) and left a poor squad for their successor.
When he says so? You'll know when he starts selecting the same side more often than not over a period of time and some players really nailing down positions.
In order not to sack Mourinho although we haven’t win any trophy this season. If PSG come at the end of season and pay a big fee to United to terminate Mourinho contract. Would you think it would be better for Mourinho and United? Under the premise that United will able to find a manager first like Poch. Would anyone accept that kind of situation?
No I dont buy that. What position did he leave Chelsea in? How did Zizou won CL twice in a row being a rookie in shark-managers world, while the special one's methods caused a riot amoung players. Ramos' was not really complimentary of Mou's methods, nor was Ronnie. To me it shows that actually there are some managers who can get more out of their players than Mou.
Why would anyone ever want Pochettino over Jose Mourinho. People are absolutely mental
So that all the trophies that Pochettino won in England will start coming to Utd.
Why wouldn’t they?
That's crazy. Nobody can judge if a manager has been adequately backed except the manager himself?
So if he spends another £200 million this summer and thinks that's not enough you'll still feel he hasn't been adequately backed. After a £500 million total spend?
Cannot wait for this ...
Because he's the most overrated manager in recent times. Fair dues to the way he's put a team together capable of what they have done the past few years but they've come nowhere near a trophy.
He left Chelsea in 10th because they downed tools. But he didn't leave a bad squad behind. And he left after winning them the title. Not to mention that Chelsea recovered quickly as they hired a competent manager and already had the likes of Costa, Hazard, Azpi, etc.
Ditto with Real. In comparison, the likes of Moyes and LvG left us with mediocre to average players, meaning that it is a massive work for Jose here. There is a clear difference between a class manager falling out with his players and having a bad season, as opposed to a crap manager building a poor team and getting sacked, only to leave said team in more difficulty than ever.
We will be fine while Jose is here and we will be fine when he eventually leaves.
Haha. I see your point. Maybe I could have worded that better. To me, he is clearly not happy with the team, not just now, but at the start of the season when he felt he had to publicly state that he wanted 4 players. The following sentence I thought was more illuminating: i.e. when we start to see a team that he clearly trusts, stability and consistency. We are quite obviously a left back short, perhaps a centre back to partner Bailly, though it's hard to tell with the amount of injuries (which in itself is part of some players' problems), we lack an option for midfield and we have no right winger, or an actual left winger (if that's something Jose wants). Add to that that we have maybe around 5-8 players who don't fit well or aren't good enough, on high wages, making them difficult to shift. And Jose has shifted quite a few, even the messiah.
That's quite a lot for a team that's meant to seriously compete for the big trophies. If the club's aim is to get to the latter stages of the CL and to automatically qualify for the CL and as a bonus win a lesser trophy, then everything's going according to plan.
But he’s taken 2 teams recently and improved both by some margin. Wouldn’t people like to see what he could do with a vastly bigger budget. Last year when both teams looked unbeatable he destroyed City and Chelsea.
I really don’t get people that keep saying oh but he’s won nothing... he’s effectivly taken a knife to a gun fight and looking not too shabby. That saying is right up there with “look how many goals we’ve scored, how are we not entertaining or attacking”
So just keep on doing what we have been doing since Fergie retired then?
This City team is most weeks starting 9 of the team who finished in 3rd, 15 points off the pace last season. Do Ederson and Walker account for this level of improvement or is Guardiola improving them on the training ground?
Bit of both, because obviously players like Sane,Sterling,Otamendi,Stones have all improved from the previous season.
What people have to realise is that if he does the same job here that he did at Chelsea the second time around, we wont get a sniff at the title any time soon and there is nothing I've seen that makes me think he's going to do better.
If city carry on displaying this kind of form there's very little anyone can do about it. Getting in a new manager won't help because there's still a period of time required to revamp the squad and a few growing pains which I don't think certain sections of the support have the patience for.
This is a diverse forum supporting your club and there will always be dissenting voices growing ever more vociferous, that's just the nature of the beast. You have a world class goalkeeper and a striker who regardless of service and style of play has shown he can put the dross in this league to the sword year in and year out. That goes a long long way.
He's shown a massive improvement and he's done about as well as he could with the direction that he's responsible for taking the club in, it's his second season and he's come strong but city and Pep are just better I just really don't see the shame in you guys admitting that.
Mourinho might not be quite the manager he once was and there's certainly evidence for a slight drop off even including his last title win but in any normal season he'd be in pole position for a league title and still sauntering about. Weather it's DDG or Pogba or fortune he's up there.
It's way too early to say Pep is building an unstoppable machine at City but the early signs are there, the only thing that would concern me if I was a United fan would be if things start beginning to go awry next season.
I’d happily allow a manager patience, to me LVG was building something. Problem with Jose is it doesn’t look like he is building anything at all. For me that’s a huge problem, I just don’t see where he is going with this team.
Example I look at Liverpool and I see a direction for them, you can see what they are working towards and maybe next year or even the year after but you can see the progress being made. Really just don’t get that looking at United.
Also I have no shame in admitting City are just a better team currently, I think everyone realises that and if they haven’t they are lying to themselves. Guess it boils down to having absolutely no faith in Jose and that he can bridge that gap.
Why not? They spent 200million on Walker, Stones, Sterling,\Mendy. Not one of them are world class and most wouldn't shine in other teams. we can get better players for cheaper. Barcelona and Atletico outperformed Real despite Real outspending them every season. Monaco won the league over PSG. Dortmund won over Bayern twice. Wenger beat Fergie to titles despite having less spending power. When Wenger didn't win the title (1996-2004), was United ability to buy Rio, Rooney etc a solid excuse to expect 2nd place? he was still criticised.
These are sides who had NOWHERE NEAR the spending power of their main rivals. We have comparable spending power. This money excuse don't stick. Spurs can talk about it. Liverpool too but the likes of Chelsea, United have more than enough spending money to be able to genuinely challenge. Chelsea were champs just last year. They just messed up with Costa and Matic.
good point. I am told he inherited the greatest team around. one that finished 4th then 3rd and won very little in past 2 years. Some would argue in the last 2 years we have won better trophies.........
Yeah but everyone knew what JM would bring to the table and what he wouldn't based on a general overview of his career to date. We have a direction yes, last season we didn't have the squad depth but up till Christmas we were second and 2pts off the top and there was talk of reeling in Chelsea despite them being in the midst of a 13 game winning streak. Instead they only got stronger whilst we faltered.
I can get why fans are dis-illusioned about the style particularly when it's set to yield no tangible results, no big trophies that are craved and seen as a right at OT. There just isn't any sense in taking this stance now and not prior when this forum for months in adance of his not so subtle arrival was begging him to replace LVG.
For us despite the positive direction we still want trophies we're on a barren run and we don't yet have the quality of player to truly rectify that and usher in a period of success. Keeping enough good players together for a title tilt isn't a worry that will plague you guys.
Chelsea primarily are exponents of defensive football and have won enough trophies that their fans don't care about the style.
United have been both fortunate and unfortunate this season but you're up against a juggernaut of a side. Mourinho won't be around long but you took this direction 18months ago. It's unrealistic I suppose to expect everyone to pull in the same direction but the support on here becomes too fractured too quickly.
What is the definition of being fine? If we dont win EPL or CL after having spent half a billion under Jose does it mean being fine? Were Bayern fine under Ancelotti, who was sacked? Why did Chelsea players down their tools? Why did Zizou achieve what Jose could not, because of Jose?? Personally for me being fine means winning a major trophy every now and then, i.e. at least once during manager's contract. Mou has one more season to get us to the very top. He lost his first season to Conte and losing this one to Pep. Not sure if he has the upper hand at the end of the third. If you are fine with being 6th and then 2nd and 2nd in three seasons, then good for your nerves. I am not fine with that at all. However, if Jose does win something major, then it is fine with me. I'd love him to succeed. At the end of the day he is managing the only club that I support.
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This is kind of post on this forum that bemuses me no end. I am fully behind Jose and the job he has performed at this club so far but there is no comparison between the football we played under Sir Alex and the way we currently set up against big teams. We genuinely set-up to counter back then, whereas now we just park the bus and hope to take advantage of one or two chances that will present themselves in a game. Our football and set-up in a big game is akin to the set-up that Big Sam or Pulis or Moyes usually employ in big games.
You need to go back and watch the videos of some of our games in Europe against Milan (2010 R16), Barca (the semi) and Real (the R16 games) to see the difference to our approach in our games back then to now. What Sir Alex did was he tried to man-mark the best passer in the opposition in order to take him out of the game but we pressed and attacked on the flanks with verve and purpose. We created plethora of chances in those games and didn't have wingers playing so far back that they were additional FB's. The only comparison is that yes, on paper, we lined-up in a 4-5-1 formation.
In the league too, in games we went behind or had to get a late goal to win or draw we threw men forward and attacked relentlessly. We coerced the opposition into submission. I don't know if you are old enough to remember the game against Spurs when we went down 3-0 at half time and went to win the game 5-3: that's the kind of team we were under Sir Alex. That Jose has never won a league game when his teams have gone 2 goals down tells us all there is to know between the difference in attacking intent and approaches of the two managers.
Support Jose all you want, but that doesn't mean it is alright to bring down Sir Alex or our former teams in order to do so.
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There's a huge misunderstanding about what transpired that season. I'll try to clear up some of the confusion. This is how events transpired:
1. Mourinho drove Chelsea to the title in 2014, clinching the league with three games to spare (a 13 (!!) point lead over second-place Man City after 35 games).
2. Mourinho, just like Antonio Conte this past off-season, recognized his team needed reinforcements -- new players to add to his squad. The board said "no." Mourinho then spent the entire pre-season telling the press and his players they would need to be even better individually than the previous year in order to be successful.
“It’s a big challenge. To be better with the same people, the players have to be better individually than they were last year. So when they think: ‘Oh last season I did great,’ this season it is not enough,” he added.
“John Terry – great season. This season it is not enough. Must be better. Fàbregas – I don’t know how many assists last year. Fantastic. It’s not enough. Because the others are going to improve with the players they are bringing and we have to improve by ourselves with our work.”
3. Mourinho allowed his players to monitor their own fitness levels during the off-season (so as not to drive them too hard and burn them out). The players failed miserably, coming in out of shape. And the poor results followed. The players knew it and said as much during post-match press interviews, including after Mourinho's sacking:
“I sent [Mourinho] the [text] message to say I was sorry he had gone and … well … just that I was sorry,” says [Hazard]. “We’d enjoyed all that success together last season, but this time round we hadn’t. I felt a little bit guilty because I’d been player of the year. I’d been one of the most decisive players, and this year I’d performed less well."
Note: Hazard had a 25-game scoreless streak to start that season.
4. Eva Carneiro. Wow. That situation spiraled out of control with a fury, and pushed some of the players over the edge (namely, Hazard).
5. Lost to newly-promoted Leicester City (before anyone believed they would win the league). Sacked.
Something to note: Mourinho never lost the fans in spite of it all. WAGNH had a poll after the Leicester City game, with thousands of responses: sack Mourinho, or keep him? 84% said "Keep." One point clear of the relegation zone, and 84% of the fans still backed him because they knew the fault lied with the players.
"Even when we have lost matches at home the supporters have chanted his name, there has been very little dissent about him going [wanting him to go]. I would have thought there would be frustration with some of the players." - The Chelsea Supporters Trust
Hopefully that clears up some confusion.
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We are only in the middle of his second season, mate. Wait till the end of 2018 before assuming Jose will or won't win anything.He needs that time.
Well said.
What this guy said.
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