Mourinho's massively defensive in his rationalization of playing utilitarian players and his record of not staying around and building a club's long-term future.
Jose: Mata has to adapt
- Thread starter AttackingFlair
- Start date
Exactly. I agree with you 100%. I think many look at Mata's stats and his accolades and think (immediately) that he's first choice on the sheet. I think, if Oscar continues in the #10 position, we'll look at this decision as a very good decision by Mourinho, just in the same way dropping Casillas proved to be the right decision sporting wise.
I think he can, but he's not a pace merchant like Hazard and Scurrle. Mata is just as fast, maybe faster? So if the idea is to have the fastest players on the wings to counterattack quickly, I cant see why De Bruyne has started instead of Mata sometimes
Feel sorry for Mata though. Consecutive Chelsea POTY. Amazing productivity.
fecking Jose.
fecking Jose.
Brwned - here's what we were talking about:
Looks like Mourinho wants to Mata to start, but maybe there's a reluctant attitude from the player himself. Excellent interview.
Looks like Mourinho wants to Mata to start, but maybe there's a reluctant attitude from the player himself. Excellent interview.
The bit about wanting to press high up the pitch and needing Oscar to be that player in the middle generally up against the deep-lying playmaker makes complete sense. Oscar's been a hard-worker from day one but even in the last few weeks I've been surprised at just how defensively aware he is. The amount of times he pulls out wide when Hazard goes walkabouts is impressive, but there was one moment today which was on another level. Oscar was involved just a few yards outside the box in the build-up to Ramires' penalty claim, but within seconds he'd already dropped back into centre mid to cover for him and he pulled off a terrific overhead/mid-air sidekick interception to stop a really promising counter-attack. He really does have the potential to be the best player he's ever managed at Chelsea so wanting to build the side around him is very understandable and suggests he really is looking at this long-term.
It doesn't change the fact that dropping Mata from the side completely is a bit bizarre. From his pre-match comments it sounds like he felt Mata let the team down in his appearance against Basel and this was punishment for it and in fairness he was very poor, but what I don't understand is why Hazard's seemingly undroppable. Yes he has that pace that Mourinho wants out wide but as he said himself Hazard has struggled to make use of that and really get in behind the midfield and open up the game. And he's just been in poor form in general. I have thought Hazard looks like he's really trying to put a shift in defensively so it could just be that he's showing a better attitude, but that's only really been apparent in a couple of games. Maybe it is all about making a statement and he's just going the extra mile to get Mata on board with how he wants to set his team up, but it seems a bit extreme really. It's harming the team in the short-term.
It doesn't change the fact that dropping Mata from the side completely is a bit bizarre. From his pre-match comments it sounds like he felt Mata let the team down in his appearance against Basel and this was punishment for it and in fairness he was very poor, but what I don't understand is why Hazard's seemingly undroppable. Yes he has that pace that Mourinho wants out wide but as he said himself Hazard has struggled to make use of that and really get in behind the midfield and open up the game. And he's just been in poor form in general. I have thought Hazard looks like he's really trying to put a shift in defensively so it could just be that he's showing a better attitude, but that's only really been apparent in a couple of games. Maybe it is all about making a statement and he's just going the extra mile to get Mata on board with how he wants to set his team up, but it seems a bit extreme really. It's harming the team in the short-term.
Oscar's at least as good a CM as a no.10, of course, Mourinho wants to play both Mikel and Ramires and flatten the 4231 into something more like a 451.
Top post. Spot on again.
It is useful having Oscar leading the press at the head of midfield though, given how many teams have a passer at the base of their midfield. That job on Pirlo was tremendously effective and isn't something he can do from CM. As you say he's going for the 451 and Oscar's pretty much part of that midfield three now anyway, he's not really playing as a #10 like Özil, Isco or the rest. I don't think you'd be harming Oscar's individual play by dropping him deeper but I don't think it's bollocks to suggest there's a tactical advantage to having Oscar higher up the pitch. You can't really play Oscar and Ramires at the base of the midfield anyway. Well, you can, but it wouldn't work particularly well. Once they buy a DM to replace Mikel there might come a time when Oscar in a deeper role is the best option.
When you're playing Fulham at home (v Sidwell and Parker) you could easily afford to play a CM of Ramires/Oscar and Mata at 10.
Yeah, you're probably right on that one. Fulham really were set up to pose very little threat.
Oscar never quite convinces me offensively, for Chelsea. Its like a whole different player for Brazil where instead I'm always impressed by him and he's hardly ever outshone by a teammate.
Duncan Castles, one of the best connected Chelsea/Mourinho journalists identified in June that Jose wasn't really a fan and even suggested he'd listen to offers for him in the summer. I think it is tactical and down to individual qualities.
Also tweets
Snippets from http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/sport/football/Premiership/article1270854.ece
Also tweets
I think the ructions caused by the Casillas decision outweighed any on the pitch positives. Mourinho continues to be praised for his man management ability. His ability to bond a group of players. He failed to do that spectacularly at Madrid precisely because of decisions such as the Casillas one.
I deplore Mourinho as a manager - he is one of the most overrated managers in the history of the game, but Casillas has himself to blame for what happened. And talking about it as a poor decision as an overstatement. Signing Diego Lopéz and leaving him as number one, even when Casillas returned, proved to be the right decision. It affected him in the final of the Confederations Cup, where he should have come out for the cross that led to the first goal.
Has he ever been 100% satisfied with a player, on his way out he said Ronaldo could make adjustments (which I agree with). Lamapard had a free role but he was so consistent and maybe Sneijder at a rigid Inter. But he was on Joe Cole just the same and he became a terrific player.
"A No 10 [Cole] who was so talented that he makes two or three fantastic actions and people were amazed," Mourinho says dismissively. "We transformed that player into the kind of inside-winger, right and left, strong defensively. He was fantastic. I was so pleased with what we did with him."
"A No 10 [Cole] who was so talented that he makes two or three fantastic actions and people were amazed," Mourinho says dismissively. "We transformed that player into the kind of inside-winger, right and left, strong defensively. He was fantastic. I was so pleased with what we did with him."
He keeps going back to commenting on the profile of player they want. I think age actually has something to do with it because it tends to be easier to mold younger players and Mata at 25 is older than all the rest fighting it out for the number 10 and wide positions. He's clearly the best right now and Chelsea are struggling without him, but Mourinho obviously feels that longterm he can teach more/drill home more to the younger players who both have more time on their side and haven't achieved things playing a certain way that might be hard to get out of their system. All that said, Mata has made multiple positions his own and the only relevant critisism thats fair is that he's never shown much aptitude for defending. When Valencia had Mata and Pablo Hernandez on the wings, they really didnt help the CMs much at all.
I see. You make some good points to be fair, though I still can't really bend my head around the idea of not even playing Mata on the wings. I can understand the logic, but to not play a player like that when a team is lacking a truly top class forward seems hugely unwise. If not entirely about some sort of personal problem, it all strikes me as being excessively rigid and cautious. Would Chelsea really lose that much defensively from sticking Mata on the wing as he was considering what they would gain? Your point about Oscar is a good one mind you, so maybe the answer for the complete exclusion really is to be found in the mix of that and Mata playing up in training (regarding newer expectations). That's the only thing that makes sense to me at the moment in terms of explaining Mourinho's behaviour. Not even being on the bench today... I found the rumours this summer ridiculous at the start but they may well have been true!
I know Mourinho loves him some shenanigans but Matagate is an odd one even for him. I see the various reasoning and analysis but to not even have him on the bench seemed off to me, like he's trying to feck with him.
The difference with Isco and Oscar and the likes of Ozil is that the former duo are very industrious and direct. Now Isco might not be defensively fantastic but he is always trying to get on the ball and be purposeful with it, and he just comes across as a very dynamic player, there is an energy/directness to his game and I have seen him track back in Madrid's games and Oscar speaks for himself. Ozil works well in the Germany side because he's surrounded by strength, industry and pace, he's protected... remains to be seen whether he'll receive that level of support at Arsenal or will he struggle against good opposition.
I have a feeling that Moyes and Mourinho see eye to eye on this issue of what is their ideal number 10... players like Rooney and Oscar tick the boxes for them, guys like Kagawa, Mata and Ozil might be aesthetically pleasing, but in terms of overall impact and industry... these pragmatic managers believe there is only one winner. The only strange thing is that Mata was a hard worker and his statistics were pretty impressive, the only problem can be a slight lack of pace on the counter and that he likes to bide his time a little in terms of passing it around abit and then hitting killer balls, whereas Oscar is more likely to just go for the jugular.
Dont get much more impact than scoring goals from deep like with Kagawa at Dortmund. There's a reason Klopp holds him so dear
That was Dortmund, this is now. He needs to prove he can have an impact on United games even from the left, only way he's going to earn Moyes' trust. I didn't think he was overly impressive in our last game, he was outshone by Valencia due to the latters second half performance.
Well you're talking about number 10s. Kagawa rarely gets the chance to play as a number 10 here. When he played it at Dortmund, he had impact
I agree with Ekeke actually, I don't think Kagawa is any less direct than Oscar and he's very industrious. He just hasn't played well enough to get in there ahead of Rooney.
Oscar is a lot better defensively and also more aggressive than Kagawa for me. Despite his small frame, he's very good at shielding the ball against more physical opponents. You can see Raees' point and understand why Moyes/Moutrinho prefer Rooney, Welbeck, Oscar etc. Moyes' comments on Rooney's aggression are also interesting recently.
Buy this fecker.
Exactly. There's no need to compare him to Oscar as Schürrle is also preferred to him... which is odd, to say the least. Yes, he works really hard but probably Schürrle's mom is the only person in the world who believes his son is in the same class as Mata.
I understand that Mata might be against the idea of playing out wide but that would be baffling, to be honest. He did it very often for Valencia; when he plays for Spain he plays from the left and he played there quite often for Chelsea as well. He's effective there - and even if Mourinho wants more defensive awareness in that position it's still incredible that Mata wasn't even on the bench against Fulham.
Has Jose lost the plot? Does he need to ramble on and on about mata all the time? It's really strange how he feels the need to comment at length about this. Doesn't seem to like mata one bit.
I'm quite pleased he has explained his thinking and intentions. Otherwise you would get a ton of moronic speculation about personality clashes or hatred of Spanish people.
But not even on the bench? Come on. Is that supposed to be some sort of educational experience for Mata? You can't explain that away with tactical reasons.
It really sounds like he's laying it into him though. He comes across as almost like he's taking the time out to putting him down. Besides it shows up his logic too which doesn't make sense. You don't need every single player to be an amazing defender to defend well. And he masks up for not being the best defensively by being brilliant creatively.
To an extent, it's Jose's own fault if people speculate, mate - he has a history of petty vindictiveness & 'playing favourites'. It probably is the case that he feels Mata needs to adapt to his system...but it's not outrageous if some think there's more to this situation than meets the eye.
He has confirmed Mata will start against Swindon in midweek. Officially a reserve player? 
He was asked about it in the interview amol, he just responded to the question. You can see where he's coming from and being the manager, its upto him to set his team up the way he wants and if he wants the No 10 to be someone who tracks back and helps out defensively, so be it. Oscar's a cracking player too, he's not just dropped Mata from the position for a vastly inferior player.
I dont think Mata will be at Chelsea too long though as I dont see him adapting himself into a winger that chases opposition full backs and puts in a massive defensive shift which is great for us as he's comfortably their best player.
Aside from his time at Madrid, when did he ever drop a great player for non-footballing reasons? Dressing room politics are always a problem at Madrid which is why every strong-minded manager inevitably has issues with one or two big name players in the club, it's not just Mourinho.
Yep but it was always going to get to Mata from then as it seemed both Redknapp and the other guy had said it was the wrong call sometime earlier and Mourinho just used the chance to put them in their place.
Look at how moyes handled the Rooney saga. Or heck, look at how someone like fergie who is outspoken handled most controversies. You can ignore questions or beat around the bush too. It'd part of dealing with the media. Mourinho seems to love talking at length about this topic whenever he gets the chance. He spoke about it a day or so before the game, then in the interview before the game and them also after the game. We get it Jose, he doesn't run enough for you.
As for the actual reason it's a poor one IMO. Why can't mata start out wide? Does every single player need to be a hound defensively. At madrid he had Ozil and Ronaldo, and here he can't find space for one mata (lolzies)?
Oscar whenever he receives the ball, he's very direct... Kagawa has that tendency to hesitate and pass back before going for a killer pass, especially when he plays for us, whereas for Japan he's in his element and is more likely to be direct and play naturally. Kagawa and Mata might be hard workers compared to an Ozil, but guys like Rooney, Welbeck, Oscar are very pacey, possess bags of stamina/drive and can perform defensive duties too, they're almost like box to box midfielders of old in relation to the way they apply themselves in that number 10 position.
This for me is key, in that number 10 role especially in the big games... physicality is very important, the reason why Zidane/Maradona are two of the greatest number 10's is that it was incredibly hard to kick these players out of the game, they were tough as nails and could fight their own battles in order to allow their talent to make its mark in a game... can the likes of Ozil, Kagawa, Mata dominate games at the very highest level in that manner? its possible that Mourinho and Moyes would argue that no, to be frank they wouldn't (even though I'd counter-argue that on the international stage both Ozil and kagawa have been very impressive and Mata's statistics over the past few years suggest he too is a very effective player).. Oscar for me is a potential great, even if he doesn't make it as a number 10, he'd make a world class CM in my opinion in a midfield like ours or as the attacking midfielder in a 4-3-3.
I think it was telling how Kagawa faded in that game v Madrid - sort of just disappeared due to the intensity of the ball whereas Welbeck was in his element, his physique and ability to shield the ball allowed him to remain calm despite the aggression of Madrid's midfield and defenders. I wouldn't write any of those midfielders off, they're still very young but I think they can definitely take their games to higher levels especially against very tough opponents.
Did Mata play for Chelsea against Basle? He did didn't he? Cup tied then No point putting a bid in