José Mourinho | 2018/19 Performances

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VP89 said:
I don't think it's possible for a Premier League manager to go into each game with say 50% and react only when they conceded or chasing the game..and still end up finishing 2nd.

It just doesn't add up. In my opinion you can't be a reactive manager all season and finish 2nd.

However I do agree in certain games we look lazy and half arsed. I don't think that's Jose though, he's actually complained about the attitude since Huddersfield away last season. It's the players, and Pogbas post match interview seems to elude to the same.
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He said "team", you keep reading manager when he and I said "team". United last year were very reactive, there was mainly two types of games the ones where we had far better personnel and were never in danger but still not collectively playing with purpose and games where the opposition rattled us and we reacted or not. The thing is that we have good players and when they react most teams will lose against them.
As for managers, I don't think that the concept of "reactive" manager even exists, all managers have a plan, an idea the only question is whether they are able to implement it and the players to execute it properly and consistently. If we focus on Mourinho, if I'm not mistaken historically he isn't even a game manager, he sets plans in advance, try to create holes in the opponents organization or nullify a particular threat, he sets traps and things like that, if anything he is a defensively proactive manager but relatively passive during games.

The reactive nature of our team is in my opinion due to two things, first the locker room culture isn't good and the manager is unable to create a good one. Basically everyone shares the blame.

Edit: He is now saying manager.:lol:
 
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Schneckerl said:
It's not unbelievable that the greatest manager in the club's history who won 9 EPL/1 CL (at that point in 2007/08) has more room for error than Jose has right now.
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It is though. Fergie was trusted early in his career at United which allowed him to become the manager he was for us. Of course he should have been trusted and I'm not contending that at all, the way every single mistep by Mourinho is overblown is however still ridiculous.

I'm not really talking strictly about Mourinho here but with current approach (we must get 95+ points or else the manager has to go) we are putting the bar way too high. It doesn't matter if Mourinho goes or not, whoever replaces him will be hated by fans here within 2 years regardless of results.
 
Jezpeza said:
And Busby. In fact if you know anything about SAF you know his early career at United was turd for the first 3 years. His career rested on an FA Cup Final which luckily we won.

We chopped and changed all through the eighties and we were turd then, won next to nothing and played second tier at one point.

Maybe I should rephrase stability to giving a decent manager some time and backing.

And anyone who thinks Jose is a shit manager not a good one obviously just has a vendetta against him. Loads of armchair fans and critics who say he’s shit despite his CV and career achievements. Shit about ‘oh we need to pass quicker and press and blandly blast blah’. Like anyone here would no where to start in charge of a football club but try to analyze team tactics etc. managing your lads under tens doesn’t count

Our managers seat will become a poisoned chalice because you can’t live up to the expectations of the fans when the board have control and lower expectations. That’s the thing at the moment. We are stuck with the dregs of 3 previous managers and the board haven’t allowed their replacement. Jose inherited a handful of players good enough to wear a Man Utd shirt and the board haven’t backed him in making wholesale changes. Yes it costs money but that’s today’s market. And we are the richest club. All this toss about not feeling the players he wanted are value for money.
Why Did they not question LVG for throwing money at Shneiderlin and Darmian and Blind and Rojo etc etc?
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Most sensible post on here for pages. People’s obsession with Pep & Klopp is going to be the undoing of this great club. Don’t get me wrong, I think Pep is maybe the greatest tactician ever cos in all my years of football I have never seen anyone obsess over every inch of tactical setups the way he does and good on him - even though I kind of hate the prick.

Klopp on the other hand, and no disrespect, but my oh my how many finals has the man bottled? Are people who support Utd really going to sit here and tell me they would take that from him if was the manager here? How about all the mockery of Liverpool fans in the same regard? And Poch? Spurs have been a laughing stock on here for being “bottlers” but people want that because somehow he must be better than what you’ve got cos he’s doing “amazing” things at Spurs?

Look, Kane is better than any striker you have at this club. How come, for all his goals and game play, Poch hasn’t won even a league cup. Roberto Martinez won one with Wigan! Dele Ali is the great hope, Eriksen is miles better than any midfielder you have bar Pogba. How come they haven’t won jack squat? Oh no it’s all good he will definitely win here. So naive.

Did you lot learn nothing from hiring Moyes? Did you not watch Spurs v Juve second leg? The level of tactical naivety Spurs showed in that game is maybe the most shocking I have seen! They were already in the QF if only Poch did exactly what Juve did once they equalized on the night.

The grass is always greener on the other side. Sometimes you only need to take out your weeds and buy some proper fertilizer, instead of sacking your gardener and hiring the neighbor’s.

My $0.02.
 
VP89 said:
I don't think it's possible for a Premier League manager to go into each game with say 50% and react only when they conceded or chasing the game..and still end up finishing 2nd.

It just doesn't add up. In my opinion you can't be a reactive manager all season and finish 2nd.

However I do agree in certain games we look lazy and half arsed. I don't think that's Jose though, he's actually complained about the attitude since Huddersfield away last season. It's the players, and Pogbas post match interview seems to elude to the same.
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I'd say our wins against the big teams show that Jose is reactive. We ended up winning a lot of our big games against opponents like city because we would be the better team in terms on focusing/nullifying their players & attacks rather than building anything of our own.

Herrera would be consistently up De bryune's ar*e rather than playing his own game no matter who the opponent is.

Our best performances comes when Jose gives individualistic roles to certain players & that tends to be how to play against the opponents available (Herrera & Ppgba against city, rash Ford & Lingard vs Chelsea) . We have the ability to play extremely defensive against one team - the other time we might be more attacking because we are not being attacked ourselves - compare this to Liverpool; they will play kamikaze high press football whether they play against the championship or real Madrid. Much less reactive.

Right now it seems like there is hardly any tactical instructions given to anyone by Jose in attack & there even is words coming out that he is telling the players to play their own type of football - which is again in my opinion; a reactive type of football.
 
For the sake of this great club I would like to see things running smoothly, and with everyone getting on, but I just cannot see this happen. So someone has to step in and sort it out before it goes too far. We don't want to end up bringing in a new manager every other year and having to change players all the time.

All we want as fans is to see our team play good football and to be challenging for honours each year. We don't want to see the club being made a laughing stock through the media day in day out, since the summer. The players must take blame also and get together and sort this out for the fans sake. Come on United.
 
12OunceEpilogue said:
I can't find comparable stats from last season (please do, anyone who knows a decent website) but looking at the official PL stats from 17/18:

Goals - 68
Goals per match - 1.79
Shots - 512
Shots on target - 178
Shooting accuracy - 35%
Penalties scored - 1
Big chances created - 60
Hit woodwork - 16

https://www.premierleague.com/clubs/12/Manchester-United/stats?se=54

Our goals per match is on an upward trend since Jose came in and hasn't been better any time post-Fergie. Our shots and shots on are less than 16/17 but we scored more goals, so we were much more clinical which is what we were all calling for after that ridiculously wasteful season in front of goal.

I'd like to see 17/18 figures for GifLord's categories. I agree with you they wouldn't be particularly good, but off the top of my head I'd be surprised if they're as bad as those we've managed in our first two games this year so I'm not expecting a straight trend downwards over the past 18 months or so. The point I take from a (very quick) look through those PL ones is that even though we aren't where we should be regarding our attacking play we're at least producing better results in terms of goals per game.
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Its a bit misleading to compare across seasons and in my opinion its better to compare within season relative to other clubs because there are league wise trends that change from season to season. The premier league as a whole is getting more attacking as more clubs have progressive managers who emphasise quick ball movement and creating chances.
 
Wednesday at Stoke said:
Its a bit misleading to compare across seasons and in my opinion its better to compare within season relative to other clubs because there are league wise trends that change from season to season. The premier league as a whole is getting more attacking as more clubs have progressive managers who emphasise quick ball movement and creating chances.
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Very fair point, but I think comparisons between specific stats in isolation between two consecutive seasons can be valid; for example both the numbers and my impression having watched the matches tells me we were more clinical in front of goal last year than in 16/17. That seems fairly clear to me, gratifyingly so after being royally pissed off at our largess two years ago.

I also take the point comparing between different teams in a given season can be more illuminating than the same club over various years, though I'll leave comparisons between our attack vs City/Pool to a hardier soul.
 
JPRouve said:
He said "team", you keep reading manager when he and I said "team". United last year were very reactive, there was mainly two types of games the ones where we had far better personnel and were never in danger but still not collectively playing with purpose and games where the opposition where the opposition rattled us and we reacted or not. The thing is that we have good players and when they react most teams will lose against them.
As for managers, I don't think that the concept of "reactive" manager even exists, all managers have a plan, an idea the only question is whether they are able to implement it and the players to execute it properly and consistently. If we focus on Mourinho, if I'm not mistaken historically he isn't even a game manager, he sets plans in advance, try to create holes in the opponents organization or nullify a particular threat, he sets traps and things like that, if anything he is a defensively proactive manager but relatively passive during games.

The reactive nature of our team is in my opinion due to two things, first the locker room culture isn't good and the manager is unable to create a good one. Basically everyone shares the blame.

Edit: He is now saying manager.:lol:
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Good post I agree with what you think, particularly the bold part which is quite worrying. I don't think we will be able to create a positive culture without building some momentum on back to back wins.

It's a bit shit that we have Tottenham on Monday. Might get worse before it gets better.
 
Thiagoal said:
Totally agree; either he changes his tactics and gets us to play with pace and freedom, or he's getting sacked imminently as we don't have the team to play his dour counter-attacking style.
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Jose won't be changing shite guys, this is it. Whatever he did that brought him success in Inter and Chelsea is simply not working here or is not working for us. The man has been looking completely lost since last season. Remember that game from last season where he tore in to the players for not following instructions despite the fact they played the same way they had been playing all season? I know everyone is trying to sound all diplomatic, top reddish and unspoilt but most of us all already know we're going absolutely nowhere with him. We could be proactive and do what needs to be done as soon as possible or we could do what we do and just wait till the end of the season and STILL sack him after wasting everybodys time. That's another problem, I don't trust the people running the club to ever make the proper decision
 
VP89 said:
Good post I agree with what you think, particularly the bold part which is quite worrying. I don't think we will be able to create a positive culture without building some momentum on back to back wins.

It's a bit shit that we have Tottenham on Monday. Might get worse before it gets better.
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Its the games after spurs I'm more worried about!
 
Sarni said:
It is though. Fergie was trusted early in his career at United which allowed him to become the manager he was for us. Of course he should have been trusted and I'm not contending that at all, the way every single mistep by Mourinho is overblown is however still ridiculous.

I'm not really talking strictly about Mourinho here but with current approach (we must get 95+ points or else the manager has to go) we are putting the bar way too high. It doesn't matter if Mourinho goes or not, whoever replaces him will be hated by fans here within 2 years regardless of results.
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Not really. You make it sound as if Mourinho has astounding (nearly) accomplishments at Manchester United despite of which he isn't loved/rated.

A few pretty logical reasons why he isn't celebrated/loved or he shouldn't be at the club very long:
  • 2nd place isn't a great accomplishment. It is progress. Whether it was enough progress keeping in mind other factors at a club as big as United is very debatable.
  • The football was mostly dull as feck and kept getting worse as the season went on. The manager is supposed to get his team more fluid and cohesive over time and we went in the opposite direction.
  • We, like the few proper elite football clubs, are reknown for attacking football. Mourinho is not and his football compared to his more attacking peers is bloody cautious and kitten like.
  • His lack of improvement of our attack.
  • His lack of improvement of our attacking flair players - Pogba, Martial, Sanchez etc.
  • His questionable coaching of our players in general. Lindelof , Bailley etc seemed lost last season.
  • His negative attitude and constant moaning does have an impact. He did it last season and did it all summer again. Constantly blaming his players and everyone else for all that goes wrong is pretty tiresome.
  • His targets this summer were genuinely boring, like the football. No wonder the board weren't enthusiastic about his ideas.
  • That joke against Seville.
  • Issues with your record signing who was the world record signing when he was signed.
  • I'll add that we were bang average across all metrics last season compared to our peers. Things like this get surprised under points tally's but they usually do point to the direction you're headed in.
So you're free to rate Mourinho's work here really highly. But it's hardly confusing why the mood is the way it is.
 
Sarni said:
It is though. Fergie was trusted early in his career at United which allowed him to become the manager he was for us.
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Ferguson was at Aberdeen for 8 years , while Mourinho has a history of staying at a club for a short period. There is no reason to assume he'd suddenly change and become a viable long term solution 18 years into his manager career.
 
Schneckerl said:
Ferguson was at Aberdeen for 8 years , while Mourinho has a history of staying at a club for a short period. There is no reason to assume he'd suddenly change and become a viable long term solution 18 years into his manager career.
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Also, times were different. We are a bohemoth of a club today. It wasn't just trust that had to be repaid by a manager. Clubs like United and City expect their managers to give a return on the enormous investment they're allowed to make.
 
get this charlatan out of the club

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Schneckerl said:
Ferguson was at Aberdeen for 8 years , while Mourinho has a history of staying at a club for a short period. There is no reason to assume he'd suddenly change and become a viable long term solution 18 years into his manager career.
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Should have trusted Moyes then. 11 years at Everton.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
Not really. You make it sound as if Mourinho has astounding (nearly) accomplishments at Manchester United despite of which he isn't loved/rated.

A few pretty logical reasons why he isn't celebrated/loved or he shouldn't be at the club very long:
  • 2nd place isn't a great accomplishment. It is progress. Whether it was enough progress keeping in mind other factors at a club as big as United is very debatable.
  • The football was mostly dull as feck and kept getting worse as the season went on. The manager is supposed to get his team more fluid and cohesive over time and we went in the opposite direction.
  • We, like the few proper elite football clubs, are reknown for attacking football. Mourinho is not and his football compared to his more attacking peers is bloody cautious and kitten like.
  • His lack of improvement of our attack.
  • His lack of improvement of our attacking flair players - Pogba, Martial, Sanchez etc.
  • His questionable coaching of our players in general. Lindelof , Bailley etc seemed lost last season.
  • His negative attitude and constant moaning does have an impact. He did it last season and did it all summer again. Constantly blaming his players and everyone else for all that goes wrong is pretty tiresome.
  • His targets this summer were genuinely boring, like the football. No wonder the board weren't enthusiastic about his ideas.
  • That joke against Seville.
  • Issues with your record signing who was the world record signing when he was signed.
  • I'll add that we were bang average across all metrics last season compared to our peers. Things like this get surprised under points tally's but they usually do point to the direction you're headed in.
So you're free to rate Mourinho's work here really highly. But it's hardly confusing why the mood is the way it is.
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2nd place behind a 100-point City is a good result. No manager would have got us above City last year, no question about it at all.

He’s done fine since he came here. Inherited a rather bad team and improved it in key areas (especially midfield), got us into Champions League two years in a row while winning two trophies and comfortably finished in top 4 last year which cannot be said about any post-Fergie season.

I don’t think football has been that terrible all the time either, to be honest. Last season was worse than the season before, funnily, as we used to create plenty of chances in 2016-17 and not that many in 2017-18 but our conversion got much better.

Sevilla tie I absolutely agree with. That one was the lowest point of his United career by far.

People who expect that with a change of manager we will start doing much better, approach 100 points tally and compete to win CL are in for a surprise. Mourinho will leave soon but whoever replaces him will have it tough.
 
The question that should be asked whenever someone brings up this stupid comparison is, what top club over the last decade or so ever suddenly changed their fortunes by sticking with their manager? What manager has suddenly turned a club to worldbeaters because they stuck with him after 3 shitty seasons?
 
fellaini's barber said:
The question that should be asked whenever someone brings up this stupid comparison is, what top club over the last decade or so ever suddenly changed their fortunes by sticking with their manager? What manager has suddenly turned a club to worldbeaters because they stuck with him after 3 shitty seasons?
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Liverpool?
 
fellaini's barber said:
The question that should be asked whenever someone brings up this stupid comparison is, what top club over the last decade or so ever suddenly changed their fortunes by sticking with their manager? What manager has suddenly turned a club to worldbeaters because they stuck with him after 3 shitty seasons?
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He hasn’t even been here for 3 seasons and the two he has been here were not shitty. The hate for Mourinho is making people lose their perception of reality.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
Also, times were different. We are a bohemoth of a club today. It wasn't just trust that had to be repaid by a manager. Clubs like United and City expect their managers to give a return on the enormous investment they're allowed to make.
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Jose fan here and agree he's no Ferguson but the majority of the fanbase would have patience with a manager who was clearly building something. In SAFs case he was building a club from the ground up in terms of the youth set up behind the scenes so even abysmal league positions in his first 5 years could be overlooked for the bigger picture from a club needing to completely re-invent itself on the pitch. Turns out they weren't overlooked tho and the majority of fans wanted him gone. Patience prevailed on that occasion but no signs are here now to suggest thats a good move again.
Mou's only responsibility is to build a successful team for the here and now (2-3 years) which is his forte if backed (to the hilt) and here they've decided not to go the distance for whatever reason and only succeeded in making success for him here less likely. They hired the wrong guy for their 2018 and beyond vision for the club must be. He got us from 6th to 2nd so right guy at the right time for that and they should have agreed to part ways last summer given this mystery pivot the board have gone for.
 
Sarni said:
I don’t think football has been that terrible all the time either, to be honest. Last season was worse than the season before, funnily, as we used to create plenty of chances in 2016-17 and not that many in 2017-18 but our conversion got much better.

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All of that was to do with Zlatan's presence alone imo, he had little pace at that point and couldn't stretch the defenses or get to the ball quickly enough on multiple occasions and yet his touch, intelligence, clever movement and still very decent build-up play allowed us to have a decent focal point. In fact, once he got injured the quality of our football derailed completely. No matter what people say, truth is Lukaku is far from good enough to lead the line for Manchester United especially within the context of Jose tactics.
 
royboy16 said:
I really hope he can turn it round as I wanted him to succeed here and still do.I honestly thought it would take him 3 years to sort us out properly but some of his transfers have been poor but everyone can make mistakes.
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Again, it's important to remember because of the structure of the club that not all transfers are his transfers. Lindelof certainly wasn't first choice and Pogba had been planned since 2014.
 
Rajma said:
All of that was to do with Zlatan's presence alone imo, he had little pace at that point and couldn't stretch the defenses or get to the ball quickly enough on multiple occasions and yet his touch, intelligence, clever movement and still very decent build-up play allowed us to have a decent focal point. In fact, once he got injured the quality of our football derailed completely. No matter what people say, truth is Lukaku is far from good enough to lead the line for Manchester United especially within the context of Jose tactics.
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I mean he was very good at getting flicks on at the diagonal long balls Valencia would lump in to the box but his touch and passing wasn’t all that great especially to the usual Zlatan standard. He is just a better point man than Lukaku but that team was still pretty disappointing overall. He’d be rubbish for 89 minutes of the game but for 1 minute he’d be good and that seemed to be enough. We maybe need some more of that sort of luck.
 
VanGaalyTime said:
Again, it's important to remember because of the structure of the club that not all transfers are his transfers. Lindelof certainly wasn't first choice and Pogba had been planned since 2014.
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Who was first choice? I seem to remember Jose himself speaking in an interview on how he knows players from the Portuguese league, since he watches a lot of football from there, he certainly seemed like his transfer if anything.

Also didn’t he chase Pogba while at Chelsea?
 
VanGaalyTime said:
Again, it's important to remember because of the structure of the club that not all transfers are his transfers. Lindelof certainly wasn't first choice and Pogba had been planned since 2014.
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Can you give us a list of who is and isn't his transfer or first choice?
 
Kostov said:
Who was first choice? I seem to remember Jose himself speaking in an interview on how he knows players from the Portuguese league, since he watches a lot of football from there, he certainly seemed like his transfer if anything.

Also didn’t he chase Pogba while at Chelsea?
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The link to Wolves this summer hints at some Mendes involvement along the way too.
 
Sarni said:
He hasn’t even been here for 3 seasons and the two he has been here were not shitty. The hate for Mourinho is making people lose their perception of reality.
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The football seems to be getting progressively worse the more we spend, shitty might have been strong but he's not really giving us any reason to continue with him is he?
 
Only transfer who is even arguably not Jose's is Mkhirtayan, apart from him all transfers in the last 2 windows (2016 and 2017) are his transfers.
 
I'll say this again for people who don't seem to understand, supporters are more than willing to give appropriate time to managers and players that show signs of what they want to see, exciting football, passion, flair, not necessarily always winning but not giving in either, none of which we are getting with Mourinho, intact you'd be hard pressed to look on the pitch and see any sort of plan a majority of the time.

That's why people are obsessed with Pep, or Klopp or Pochettino, because you are actually seeing what they are doing, the positive influence they are having on their team and the supporters and you can see what they are doing on the pitch, is it always successful, no, is Mourinho? No. 3rd season and I still can't tell what the hell we are trying to do in attacking areas of the pitch until we revert to hoof it to Fellaini, that's the only time I understand perfectly.
 
VP89 said:
How so?
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Because Mourinho is very much a reactive manager and always has been. "We don't lose" is pretty much his mantra. Even at his best, when he was very successful.

It's not a negative thing in of itself. You can score tons of goals as well with that same outlook. It's just a mentality and it's well known with Mourinho.
 
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