Jordan Henderson | New Athletic Interview: I strongly believe that me playing in Saudi Arabia is a positive thing

HTG said:
He’s a coward and a man without true convictions.
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Wasn't he also one of the main players in the PL who led a big internal crusade of the players against the Super League? Man of the people when it's convenient, I suppose.
 
adexkola said:
I am on record saying that if his advocacy was just social media tweets, then yes, one could say his move to Saudi Arabia pooh-poohs his social media tweets.

However, if he has donated money and time to LGBT causes in the UK (which is not implausible, footballers donate to causes all the time), then no, a move to Saudi Arabia does not invalidate tangible acts of service that have benefited actual people. And it would be dumb to argue otherwise.

The people calling him a hypocrite are absolutely certain that all he has done is yap his mouth and slap #LGBT tags on social media. I am saying that given no one knows the extent of his advocacy, the hypocrite tag doesn't make sense.
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I can only speak for myself, but if I worked 10 hours a day, 7 days a week at an LGBT shelter (incognito), and donated 50% of my salary for the past decade to LGBT causes, then I can say for certain that I wouldn't sell out to Saudi Arabia. Because clearly the cause would mean enough to me that I wouldn't throw it away for a few extra quid in my pay packet.

The reason that he's getting dragged in the media is because whatever he has done to this point clearly was performative. Because if it wasn't, he wouldn't be accepting 700k a week to legitimise a regime that brutalises the very people he claims to give a feck about.

If he is not a hypocrite, then he'll continue to wear the rainbow laces/rainbow captains armband in Saudi Arabia won't he? And he'll continue to vocally condemn atrocities from within Saudi Arabia won't he? If not, then Saudi Arabia have bought his silence. Which 100% makes him a hypocrite by any metric.
 
BerryBerryShrew said:
I can only speak for myself, but if I worked 10 hours a day, 7 days a week at an LGBT shelter (incognito), and donated 50% of my salary for the past decade to LGBT causes, then I can say for certain that I wouldn't sell out to Saudi Arabia. Because clearly the cause would mean enough to me that I wouldn't throw it away for a few extra quid in my pay packet.

The reason that he's getting dragged in the media is because whatever he has done to this point clearly was performative. Because if it wasn't, he wouldn't be accepting 700k a week to legitimise a regime that brutalises the very people he claims to give a feck about.

If he is not a hypocrite, then he'll continue to wear the rainbow laces/rainbow captains armband in Saudi Arabia won't he? And he'll continue to vocally condemn atrocities from within Saudi Arabia won't he? If not, then Saudi Arabia have bought his silence. Which 100% makes him a hypocrite by any metric.
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Of course he's a hypocrite and all his actions were meant to benefit him only. But his move does nothing to legitimise the regime. Not sure why people keep saying this.

Our country routinely supplying arms to the regime does much more in that regard. Us football fans gleefully watching and celebrating the World Cup held in homophobic countries does much more than Jordan fecking Henderson moving there for money.
 
BerryBerryShrew said:
I can only speak for myself, but if I worked 10 hours a day, 7 days a week at an LGBT shelter (incognito), and donated 50% of my salary for the past decade to LGBT causes, then I can say for certain that I wouldn't sell out to Saudi Arabia. Because clearly the cause would mean enough to me that I wouldn't throw it away for a few extra quid in my pay packet.

The reason that he's getting dragged in the media is because whatever he has done to this point clearly was performative. Because if it wasn't, he wouldn't be accepting 700k a week to legitimise a regime that brutalises the very people he claims to give a feck about.

If he is not a hypocrite, then he'll continue to wear the rainbow laces/rainbow captains armband in Saudi Arabia won't he? And he'll continue to vocally condemn atrocities from within Saudi Arabia won't he? If not, then Saudi Arabia have bought his silence. Which 100% makes him a hypocrite by any metric.
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Pretty much exactly this. He doesn't actually care about the cause, probably never has except when it was convenient and scored him some brownie points, and is now showing how much of a hypocrite he is. That's pretty much all it is, and it's pretty clear cut. I don't know why some are creating these strawman arguments or doing mental gymnastics about it. I also think the outrage coming from those who are actually concerned by the issue speaks more than cheap words of champions of whataboutism on Redcafe.
 
erikcred said:
But his move does nothing to legitimise the regime.
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It does something towards that end.

Not as much as the other things you mentioned, granted, but hardly anyone would claim that Henderson being a hypocritical shit is objectively a bigger problem than - say - UK arms sales to SA.

It's still worth pointing out, though, and I'm a bit puzzled as to why anyone would have a problem with people doing just that.
 
BerryBerryShrew said:
I can only speak for myself, but if I worked 10 hours a day, 7 days a week at an LGBT shelter (incognito), and donated 50% of my salary for the past decade to LGBT causes, then I can say for certain that I wouldn't sell out to Saudi Arabia. Because clearly the cause would mean enough to me that I wouldn't throw it away for a few extra quid in my pay packet.
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That's fair. And that's you.

I, personally, wouldn't mind. And there are others who understand that the cause doesn't get thrown away, along with your good deeds, by merely playing for a club in Saudi Arabia.

BerryBerryShrew said:
The reason that he's getting dragged in the media is because whatever he has done to this point clearly was performative. Because if it wasn't, he wouldn't be accepting 700k a week to legitimise a regime that brutalises the very people he claims to give a feck about.
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1. We don't know with full confidence whether it was performative. If it was, fair enough.
2. I disagree with the bolded. Because a. The regime is (I really don't know why some don't want to accept this) already legitimized. Again, they are pound for pound one of the most important and courted countries on the world stage. Specifically for Henderson, the country he is a citizen of, recognizes Saudi Arabia, buys SA oil, sells weapons to SA, sends tourists to SA, and allows SA to buy one of its own football clubs. What more legitimatization is there to obtain? b. Assuming SA wasn't legitimate, Henderson going there does not move the needle towards legitimization anymore than Messi going to the US further legitimizes the US government. c. If there was a causal link established between Henderson's move to Saudi Arabia and them continuing to oppress LGBT people, I'd be more inclined to agree with your argument, but they hated LGBT people 100 years ago and they will most likely continue to hate LGBT people 100 years into the future regardless of how many footballers decide to move there or not.

BerryBerryShrew said:
If he is not a hypocrite, then he'll continue to wear the rainbow laces/rainbow captains armband in Saudi Arabia won't he? And he'll continue to vocally condemn atrocities from within Saudi Arabia won't he? If not, then Saudi Arabia have bought his silence. Which 100% makes him a hypocrite by any metric.
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If all he did was wear the laces and rainbow armband and condemn atrocities on social media then yes he's a hypocrite if he stops it. If he did tangible stuff going beyond that that has had a positive impact on LGBT folk, then no, he isn't, because this move doesn't reverse tangible good that has already happened.
 
erikcred said:
Of course he's a hypocrite and all his actions were meant to benefit him only. But his move does nothing to legitimise the regime. Not sure why people keep saying this.

Our country routinely supplying arms to the regime does much more in that regard. Us football fans gleefully watching and celebrating the World Cup held in homophobic countries does much more than Jordan fecking Henderson moving there for money.
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I don't see the point in getting so bent out shape about this, a lot on here seemed to take great delight in Ronaldo ending up out there, because he became so hated. In the grand scheme of things it means absolutely nothing and will make zero difference to anyone's lives except his own, he's just looking after himself and his family as best he can.

Your government can facilitate the sale of billions of pounds worth of weapons and munitions to the same people. But that's not as big a deal as a footballerJH going there for 700k a week.
 
Couldn't have said it any better than Thomas Hitzlsperger did on Twitter yesterday (not sure if posted already in here). I believe he was the first or definitely one of the first (active or retired) pro footballers to out himself as gay. How anyone can read that Henderson quote and don't think well that's kind of odd isn't it? is truly beyond me.



 
Oranges038 said:
Doesn't seem like it.
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Yeah, but really (and, let's just stick to this thread, because we all know what's been said in this thread - let's not involve all the Internet in this): is your impression that those who react negatively to Henderson joining a Saudi club are fine with (or simply ignorant of) UK arms sales to Saudi Arabia?

If not (meaning: you do recognize that they are not fine with/unaware of the arms sales), what's your problem? What sort of reaction would you expect/like to see? None at all? Because...?
 
adexkola said:
When you have some arguing that it is this act of Jordan Henderson, that will legitimize Saudi Arabia, not everything else *gesturing with arms wide*, then one can be forgiven for thinking that some do see this as that big of a deal.
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People who think that are wrong. I have not seen anyone say that in this thread, but might have missed it.

For me, this is only a case of a rich person standing up for something when its easy and dont cost him anything. When it would cost him alot of money to stand up for the LGBT community he folded. So it was not so important for him after all. The qoutes about him wondering what kind of world we live in if f.ex a gay person would be unsafe watching him play football seems very strange now, as he plays for a club where they are not safe just existing, much less watching him play.

He would also be breaking the law and putting himself in risk if he would continue, so he wont do that.
 
Well, he's just like many people these days. Opportunistic virtue signalling.

Not going to hold it against him, I'm probably cynical but I assume most celebrities and organisations are doing it. No real conviction behind it all. It's just a tool.
 
adexkola said:
That's fair. And that's you.

I, personally, wouldn't mind. And there are others who understand that the cause doesn't get thrown away, along with your good deeds, by merely playing for a club in Saudi Arabia.
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I wasn't saying that to make it seem like it was "just me". I was saying that because I believe it applies universally. If you care about a moral issue to the degree that you actually invest substantial time and resources into it, you don't immediately take a decision that flies in the face of that moral stance just because you see dollar signs. Unless of course, you didn't really care as much about the issue as you were happy to let on that you did previously....

adexkola said:
1. We don't know with full confidence whether it was performative. If it was, fair enough.
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See above. It clearly was performative. Because if it wasn't, he wouldn't have accepted the SA offer. Simple as.

adexkola said:
2. I disagree with the bolded. Because a. The regime is (I really don't know why some don't want to accept this) already legitimized. Again, they are pound for pound one of the most important and courted countries on the world stage. Specifically for Henderson, the country he is a citizen of, recognizes Saudi Arabia, buys SA oil, sells weapons to SA, sends tourists to SA, and allows SA to buy one of its own football clubs. What more legitimatization is there to obtain? b. Assuming SA wasn't legitimate, Henderson going there does not move the needle towards legitimization anymore than Messi going to the US further legitimizes the US government. c. If there was a causal link established between Henderson's move to Saudi Arabia and them continuing to oppress LGBT people, I'd be more inclined to agree with your argument, but they hated LGBT people 100 years ago and they will most likely continue to hate LGBT people 100 years into the future regardless of how many footballers decide to move there or not.

If all he did was wear the laces and rainbow armband and condemn atrocities on social media then yes he's a hypocrite if he stops it. If he did tangible stuff going beyond that that has had a positive impact on LGBT folk, then no, he isn't, because this move doesn't reverse tangible good that has already happened.
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On reflection, I actually agree with some of this. SA aren't looking for "legitimacy" per se, they don't really give a feck what people think. However, I do believe that they are definitely enjoying having power over Henderson - the reveal video posted previously was actually quite provocative - and they have in effect bought his silence which I imagine brings certain gratification to them.

As for the last paragraph, if Henderson actually cared about the causes he claimed he did, then he would continue to support those causes as vociferously after his move to SA as he did before. I mean, that's the argument right? That football is just a job, nobody is responsible for the morality of their employers? But that argument falls apart if he stops doing the things he was doing previously (like the rainbow armband/laces and the public condemnation of homophobia).

To be honest, Henderson should do something like speak out against SA after his first game and reveal a message of support to the LGBT community on an undershirt. Worst that would happen is he'd get his contract cancelled (they aren't going to arrest and behead a famous British celebrity) and he'd become an actual legend and enhance his reputation significantly. I reckon he's probably taken aback by the column inches this is getting, and it's possible that he actually does regret signing the contract now due to the hit on his reputation. Time for a drastic PR move Jordan!
 
RobinLFC said:
Couldn't have said it any better than Thomas Hitzlsperger did on Twitter yesterday (not sure if posted already in here). I believe he was the first or definitely one of the first (active or retired) pro footballers to out himself as gay. How anyone can read that Henderson quote and don't think well that's kind of odd isn't it? is truly beyond me.



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There‘s no comeback from that for Henderson. Hitz said it all. Henderson is an opportunistic hypocrite who used the struggles of the lgbtq community for his own personal gain. He’s a coward and a traitor to the cause he once claimed to support.
 
adexkola said:
*Henderson goes to a shelter focused on providing services to LGBT youth who are homeless and donates his time/money

"But he plays in Saudi Arabia so the net effect of his deeds is zero"... says someone online who does the square root of feck all
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Essentially, these are the times we live in
 
tomaldinho1 said:
Completely agree, I hope this helps stop footballers (and celebrities in general) standing up for things when it is convenient for them. If you support a cause, support it, if you don't, don't. He should get a huge amount of flak because he took it upon himself to position himself as such an ardent supporter of those groups.


This is a bit of a cop out - he's going to have no influence whatsoever from within, he's a football player without any real clout (it's not like he's Ronaldo or Benzema and even they would get shut down immediately) and the act of going to Saudi completely undermines any work he has done for those groups of people. Sure, as someone posted above, if he rips off his shirt to reveal a rainbow flag or similar public gesture people will think he's a hero but I doubt he wants to go to jail. It's actually not that big a deal in the grand scheme of everything wrong with the world, the sad thing is many people probably would sell their morals for such an insane amount of money, but he should get all the stick he's getting for it because it's important we are, at the very least, held accountable for what we say in public, esepcially if we are a public figure/celebrity.
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It doesn't if he continues to do it
 
adexkola said:
*Henderson goes to a shelter focused on providing services to LGBT youth who are homeless and donates his time/money

"But he plays in Saudi Arabia so the net effect of his deeds is zero"... says someone online who does the square root of feck all
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Weren't you just saying, in this very thread, that we can't know how much substantial, tangible support Henderson offers to the LGBTQ community?

How, exactly, do you know how much Caf members do?
 
adexkola said:
See @arnie_ni? As long as you're not big in the fight for LGBT rights, no one will criticize you. So why would I put my neck on the fire as a footballer?
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You should only put your neck to the fire if it's a case you genuinely believe in and want to help. If that's the case, you wouldn't accept any money to play in SA
 
Abraxas said:
Not going to hold it against him, I'm probably cynical but I assume most celebrities and organisations are doing it.
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Er, yes - but why wouldn't you hold it against him?

It's feckin' wrong, surely, regardless of how many are doing it.
 
Wumminator said:
You do know the laws Saudi Arabia has?
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Yes, what's your point? Does that mean he can't support organisations here still with his time and money as he has been?
 
Cassidy said:
Im saying I don’t see an issue IF he continues to champion said issues. The act of going to Saudi doesn’t negate his work, unless he stops doing the work. I don’t see how that can be an outlandish view.

Or do you think activists from the outside would have more impact than those from within? And this isn’t me saying he will do that, I’m just saying the act of going there actually to me isn’t a bad thing.

What will determine if hes done a 180 will be his actions going forward. E.g does he still take the time to support said causes.
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He'd ve literally crazy if he doesn't stop. He'd be actively endangering his own life
 
arnie_ni said:
You should only put your neck to the fire if it's a case you genuinely believe in and want to help. If that's the case, you wouldn't accept any money to play in SA
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Don't think that statement holds
 
Cassidy said:
It doesn't if he continues to do it
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If it turns out his plan is to use his newfound platform as a player in the Saudi league to improve the conditions for LBGT+ people in Saudi Arabia...we will all rejoice, I'm sure.

That would be wonderful.
 
Cassidy said:
Don't think that statement holds
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If you believe strongly enough about it you won't. Henderson put on a show that he did.

Me personally, I'd absolutely struggle to say no to the money but I'm also not actively campaigning for lgbq rights.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
If it turns out his plan is to use his newfound platform as a player in the Saudi league to improve the conditions for LBGT+ people in Saudi Arabia...we will all rejoice, I'm sure.

That would be wonderful.
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Doens't have to be a plan, if he just continues supporting organisations he has been then I don't see an issue
 
arnie_ni said:
If you believe strongly enough about it you won't. Henderson put on a show that he did.

Me personally, I'd absolutely struggle to say no to the money but I'm also not actively campaigning for lgbq rights.
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I think you can only answer that for yourself personally.
 
Cassidy said:
Doens't have to be a plan, if he just continues supporting organisations he has been then I don't see an issue
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Come on, mate.

Unless he intends to do something quite spectacular, it's clearly hypocritical as feck by most standards.

The Saudi Pro League is being used as an instrument by the Saudi regime as part of a wider scheme, this is pretty feckin' obvious. Going there amounts to supporting the regime's scheme, it's very hard to interpret it in any other way.

(Yes, you could say that idiot footballers don't give a shit about the scheme, they just want money - but that hardly invalidates the argument here: Henderson has seemingly taken a particular stance, he has specifically associated himself with a certain cause as part of his public persona...or something).
 
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Chesterlestreet said:
Yeah, but really (and, let's just stick to this thread, because we all know what's been said in this thread - let's not involve all the Internet in this): is your impression that those who react negatively to Henderson joining a Saudi club are fine with (or simply ignorant of) UK arms sales to Saudi Arabia?

If not (meaning: you do recognize that they are not fine with/unaware of the arms sales), what's your problem? What sort of reaction would you expect/like to see? None at all? Because...?
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Maybe just put it in context, that regardless of his previously expressed views, that 1 person going there for 700k a week is nothing comparison to the amount of money the government has allowed to be made from selling bombs to the same country.
 
Oranges038 said:
Maybe just put it in context, that regardless of his previously expressed views, that 1 person going there for 700k a week is nothing comparison to the amount of money the government has allowed to be made from selling bombs to the same country.
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Yeah, yeah - we know this. I addressed this point myself in this very thread.

Can you try to answer the actual questions?
 
He has taken the money, and now he has to live with the online abuse...just the consequences of his actions.
 
Maybe he's going to take that Saudi cash, put half of it in a separate account, and once he retires he's going to donate it all to Stonewall? He could even announce it on Twitter/X/whatever it'll called in two years, using the hashtag #BigFeckOnYourBigotedFaces.

I would genuinely love that. Take Saudi money and use it to help LGBT people who are being persecuted in Saudi Arabia.
 
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